[f4ker]

I'd take the T.50. I really enjoy driving lightweight, naturally-aspirated, manual transmission cars with unassisted steering like the Porsche 1992 964 RS and the 1973 Carrera RS. They bring me a lot of joy even at slow speeds. I've driven the T.50 and it gives you those same feels but with a way more powerful engine, better headlights, a central diving position, and wireless Apple CarPlay, a good stereo and it's actually even lighter than those cars! The T.50 doesn't need a lift to get safely over speed humps. It doesn't need giant look-at-me wings and splitters and spoilers and canards on it to get downforce. Thanks to the fan, it even generates effective downforce at lower speeds and effective virtual longtail (less drag) at higher speeds. It's got the nicest shifting mechanism I've ever experienced and the engine has great flexibility in gears 2-5. It revs to 12,000 RPM and makes an awesome sound. All of this without complex electronics or a will-eventually-need-to-be-replaced high voltage battery and all the complications that go with that. This doesn't in any way diminish the incredible accomplishments of the W1 or make it less desirable but if you asked me to choose between the two (a choice I hope I don't have to make!) I'd choose the T.50 every time.

its funny, almost like Gordon is on to something....
the other advantage with the fan is to allow for softer springs as you can manage downforce at speed
not a fan of the central driving position
or you can continue to pay 8k p.a. per car for a battery insurance package for your hybrid ferraris. great when you have 10 of them or however many a ferrari collectors have

 

[f4ker]

Contrary to what rich attention seeking dickheads would have you believe, most good leaders are not dickheads.

Elon, steve jobs, Ron,

 

[f4ker]

I dont think anything Murray is doing is not reproducible, or incapable of being scaled. By scale here I dont mean selling more than 100 $3million cars, I agree, the market there is limited. I mean bringing down the cost of making that many bespoke parts and distributing those parts among more cars/models for a lower price.

Heck, look at the Artura and the ethernet rig that lowered the weight/price of things, that I suspect is now in the W1 and likely will be put in all McLarens moving forward. These things are doable. Not to mention, Mclaren is literally selling $2M cars, the same as the T50, and those models can serve as R&D. Difference is Gordan managed to do so without a lot of bloat because he has a vision for it, IMO.

You just need someone that thinks it's even a good idea to try. Good things happen when you try. Not everyone is willing or able to try.

there will be more W1 coupes than all three T50 versions combined.
More F80 than all T50 and T33 versions combined

 

[Chicane]

I think McLaren has been kneecapped, I fear, permanently. They have done a great job at maintaining the weight of their cars, pretty much stuck at around 3200-3400lbs since the beginning. That is still a tremendously amazing job in light of all the competition bloating up their 'hypercars' to hyperobese cars with the flagship Lamborghini embarrassingly at 4000lbs.

That said, what Ron Dennis started was a 3 legged stool of McLaren automotive, racing, and research. And the company now just with automotive seems more like a pogo stick trying to tread and keep its head above water.

In an alternative world, with Ron still running things, I think McLaren research may have come up with some ways and strategies to make real bleeding edge break throughs for some GMA t50 like limited editions, and perhaps more importantly, on how to filter that down to their more 'regular' super cars. In that alternative world I imagine that McLarens would slowly have been losing some weight rather than just treading water.

Vision and the ability to drive, seldom, are committee led. They are usually dickhead led.

That said, considering the many difficulties and far less resources available to McLaren, they frankly have embarrassed the other players in the supercar market with what they have been able to pull off.

To me the mystery is how the entire industry doesnt kill itself out of shame relative to what Gordon Murray has done. And at the very least, slavishly copy him until they get somewhere near his level of success and mature some of his techniques. It's bizarre, but I'm also sure I'm not appreciating many subtleties and realities of which I have little or no concept of.

Doesn't GMA and other boutique manufacturers (eg Pagani, Ksegg) benefit from more lenient regulations with respect to fuel economy and emissions? I feel like this is being over simplified.

 

[Tumbleweed]

GMA's $3M T.50 is only for a few. The T.33 is around $2M. Again for a limited few individuals. But a V12 car weighing less than 2200lbs/998kg is phenomenal. They are both designed to work as touring cars with room for luggage. However a GMA V8 would still be too expensive. They are still my favorite cars for the road & track.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Doesn't GMA and other boutique manufacturers (eg Pagani, Ksegg) benefit from more lenient regulations with respect to fuel economy and emissions? I feel like this is being over simplified.

Not really. At least not for the T33 which is fully homologated. And I think the T50 is EU complaint on regs.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

GMA's $3M T.50 is only for a few. The T.33 is around $2M. Again for a limited few individuals. But a V12 car weighing less than 2200lbs/998kg is phenomenal. They are both designed to work as touring cars with room for luggage. However a GMA V8 would still be too expensive. They are still my favorite cars for the road & track.

If I recall, the original offer on the T50 I got was a little north of 2M, and with taxes, importing etc, it basically worked out to $3M real. Which at times, in retrospect, I regret not pursuing.

Perhaps it went up later in the run. I know the T33 spider is really pricy and they upped the price to $3m or something like that.

 

[Tumbleweed]

If I recall, the original offer on the T50 I got was a little north of 2M, and with taxes, importing etc, it basically worked out to $3M real. Which at times, in retrospect, I regret not pursuing.

Perhaps it went up later in the run. I know the T33 spider is really pricy and they upped the price to $3m or something like that.

I think the T.33 Spider is around $2.3-2.5 depending on options. The base price for the T.33 Coupe is $1.85M. All more than I can afford but I still can lust after them. Simply amazing cars.

 

[f4ker]

If I recall, the original offer on the T50 I got was a little north of 2M, and with taxes, importing etc, it basically worked out to $3M real. Which at times, in retrospect, I regret not pursuing.

Perhaps it went up later in the run. I know the T33 spider is really pricy and they upped the price to $3m or something like that.

T33 coupe was GBP 1.37mn+taxes and then i think there was a GBP400k premium on the spider.

 

[iohead]

I think the T.33 Spider is around $2.3-2.5 depending on options. The base price for the T.33 Coupe is $1.85M. All more than I can afford but I still can lust after them. Simply amazing cars.

https://www.mclarenlife.com/posts/1884844/

 

[sailfly]

I think McLaren has been kneecapped, I fear, permanently. They have done a great job at maintaining the weight of their cars, pretty much stuck at around 3200-3400lbs since the beginning. That is still a tremendously amazing job in light of all the competition bloating up their 'hypercars' to hyperobese cars with the flagship Lamborghini embarrassingly at 4000lbs.

That said, what Ron Dennis started was a 3 legged stool of McLaren automotive, racing, and research. And the company now just with automotive seems more like a pogo stick trying to tread and keep its head above water.

In an alternative world, with Ron still running things, I think McLaren research may have come up with some ways and strategies to make real bleeding edge break throughs for some GMA t50 like limited editions, and perhaps more importantly, on how to filter that down to their more 'regular' super cars. In that alternative world I imagine that McLarens would slowly have been losing some weight rather than just treading water.

Vision and the ability to drive, seldom, are committee led. They are usually dickhead led.

That said, considering the many difficulties and far less resources available to McLaren, they frankly have embarrassed the other players in the supercar market with what they have been able to pull off.

To me the mystery is how the entire industry doesnt kill itself out of shame relative to what Gordon Murray has done. And at the very least, slavishly copy him until they get somewhere near his level of success and mature some of his techniques. It's bizarre, but I'm also sure I'm not appreciating many subtleties and realities of which I have little or no concept of.

I think it's mainly because of them participating in the horsepower wars, which necessitates turbo engines, which necessitates weight. The V8 is something like 205kg, and when you start to include all the additional ancillaries like intercooler, bigger radiators etc weight starts snowballing. If they used a 500-600hp NA engine like the F140 or Porsche 918 V8 (both around 150kg) that's already -50kg; then -25-30kg for intercooler, piping, smaller radiators; then use a manual or single clutch transmission -75kg; make better rear subframe better and hang the suspension off the transmission -15-30kg (the current one is extuded/cast and does not triangulate load well), all carbon panels -30kg.

If the 720s is around 1300kg dry it should not be hard to get down to 1100kg if they went NA and less power.

Contrary to what rich attention seeking dickheads would have you believe, most good leaders are not dickheads.

IDK Murray is not know for being the most congenial either. Look at the drama with Mercedes when developing SLR, the dispute over credit for the MP4/4, the recent panel gap drama with Peter Stevens, falling out with Mclaren/Ron, etc

 

[sailfly]

Economics. Murray’s business model has more in common with Koenigsegg than McLaren, Ferrari, Lambo or Aston. The vast majority of people can’t afford what GMA is doing, and a chunk of those who can don’t care. GMA cars aren’t touring cars.

His techniques are bespoke custom everything, no expense spared. It’s not mysterious. It’s also not something that scale to even 1000 cars a year. Or a car you’ll drive regularly. What’s the supply chain for minor repairs ? Right, bespoke custom everything. Fucked.

If you look at the T33 the chassis they are using is very similar in construction to the iStream chassis he developed for $60k stillborn Yamaha or TVR cars. Just the front suspension pickup points look to be a large casting or milled pieces instead of bonded extrusions, and the rear subframe uses the engine/transmission as a semi structural member

But the iStream concept looks horrible for a crash. The way it transfers load continuously front to back also means if it crashes the same will happen. And does not look easy to repair.

 

[sailfly]

 

[theMcLarenfan]

Is there no more news about the W1? it seems to me this is turning into a GMA T.33 thread.

 

[7racer]

just curious...did the P1 have an option for 6 point harnesses? I dont see that on the W1 or how that would be mounted....maybe MSO?

 

[invisiblewave]

just curious...did the P1 have an option for 6 point harnesses? I dont see that on the W1 or how that would be mounted....maybe MSO?

I was wondering the same thing. I can't believe they didn't include harness mount points, at least not from the pictures I've seen.

 

[iohead]

just curious...did the P1 have an option for 6 point harnesses? I dont see that on the W1 or how that would be mounted....maybe MSO?

Yes, you can get 6-point harness in the W1, even in the US.

 

[theMcLarenfan]

I was wondering the same thing. I can't believe they didn't include harness mount points, at least not from the pictures I've seen.

Maybe it's an option and they fit the mount points only if you spec it that way.

 

[theMcLarenfan]

Yes, you can get 6-point harness in the W1, even in the US.
View attachment 247852

In a car with that much performance, the Senna had them as standard.

 

[Gary(SF)]

I'd take the T.50. I really enjoy driving lightweight, naturally-aspirated, manual transmission cars with unassisted steering like the Porsche 1992 964 RS and the 1973 Carrera RS. They bring me a lot of joy even at slow speeds. I've driven the T.50 and it gives you those same feels but with a way more powerful engine, better headlights, a central diving position, and wireless Apple CarPlay, a good stereo and it's actually even lighter than those cars! The T.50 doesn't need a lift to get safely over speed humps. It doesn't need giant look-at-me wings and splitters and spoilers and canards on it to get downforce. Thanks to the fan, it even generates effective downforce at lower speeds and effective virtual longtail (less drag) at higher speeds. It's got the nicest shifting mechanism I've ever experienced and the engine has great flexibility in gears 2-5. It revs to 12,000 RPM and makes an awesome sound. All of this without complex electronics or a will-eventually-need-to-be-replaced high voltage battery and all the complications that go with that. This doesn't in any way diminish the incredible accomplishments of the W1 or make it less desirable but if you asked me to choose between the two (a choice I hope I don't have to make!) I'd choose the T.50 every time.

Isn't the T.50 show and display only in the U.S.? Severely limits its appeal, seems to me.