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Discussion Starter #1
Is it just me that thinks that the 12C continues to get a particularly negative reaction on forums, even in light of a healthier press reception?

I keep reading threads on Pistonheads that contain many negative comments towards the 12C, even now, after the complications of the cars release.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=63&t=1233259&mid=87446&nmt=McLaren+12c+not+selling?

This thread basically contains a discussion on the values of 12C with one poster snipping and hounding any contributors that try to balance the argument. He repeatedly refers to the values of two cars which have plummeted for various reasons, while using average 458 prices as a 'comparable' benchmark, and refuses to listen to explanations for the values of said examples. He also has the cheek to say that he is 'not bashing' the 12C while, in my eyes, constantly bashing the 12C!

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=63&t=1235212&mid=87446&nmt=P1+-+spotted

This thread contains the quote 'How the feck do people part with £200k or such an average piece of super car design.'. I don't understand this - to me the 12C is beautiful! My friends that own the one in my profile picture probably think I am being sarcastic or saying it to boost their ego, but whenever I see the car I can't help but mention how great I think it looks! It is compact, sleek and has a striking design.

Another 'argument' that I find particularly frustrating is the whole 'It isn't any good because it is not a Ferrari'. But surely you could argue that about anything?? 'I don't like this apple because it is not an orange' is hardly a sane argument!

There are numerous other examples I could find too.

I have never noticed any other car which regularly gets such snippy comments, except from the the XJ220 (do I have a thing for less loved cars??).

Or perhaps I am getting sensitive and PH is not a 12C-friendly environment?
 

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I've very quickly learned to expect nothing different on PH regarding the 12C
To be fair the area is in the Ferrari based area of PH, so somewhat expected,
It was a good read up to the point that it all became about residuals and comparing, which by now I thought everyone realised that times had changed and everyone is getting bitten on the arse with residuals, So whilst not completely ignoring them, I'm refusing to let the residuals dictate how good the Mclaren is.
I have found in my brief time the the Mclaren ownership experience is very different to my previous Porsche - and not all in a good way, but overall the car itself delights and excites me when out in it- so serves it's purpose 100%
 

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Discussion Starter #3
True - one of the points someone made was fantastic: they bought the car to use, not to invest in it. I think intelligent supercar buyers will expect a tough hit on residuals, particularly as the economic climate continues.
 

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I tried to get PistonHeads to create a unique sub-forum for McLaren discussions ahead of the launch of the production cars. They claimed there wasn't enough discussion at the time to warrant its own forum, yet they already have sub-forums for some really obscure 'Other Marques' that I am sure don't generate the traffic a proper McLaren forum would have. Leaving discussions of a British firm's products mired in a forum labeled "Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini & Bugatti" is a really poor decision for a UK-based forum of 'Petrolheads'.

>8^)
ER
 

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Have to admit, I have quite a lot of time for PH as there has been plenty of interesting discussion there (in particular the thread on a PHer's Mclaren F1) so I'll attempt to defend it a bit.

Rightly or wrongly, a lot of the PH collective view on the 12c I suspect has been decided on the magazine reviews in mid 2011 which were not very positive towards the car to put it mildly and on the face of it, the 12c had got thumped in comparisons to the 458 (or perhaps I should say specifically the car 458 FNE... but that's another discussion altogether...) after having been positioned as the major competitor to the 458 which in all honesty is a very good car. This was then shortly followed by considerable discussion about the issues that a lot of the early cars suffered with some owners being quite rightly very unamused by the ongoing problems and impressions stick I suppose.

With any large number of people there are always going to be differing opinions so having some people albeit very vocal about their dislike about the 12c's looks is not unexpected either. I have to admit I find the criticism of the 12c of 'not being a 458' or 'mclaren lack passion' fairly amusing personally....
 

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PH is not a great forum IMO. They have countless threads for TVR, but can't make one for McLaren, very odd.

They are one of the rare places to discuss Radicals but traffic is very light.
 

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True - one of the points someone made was fantastic: they bought the car to use, not to invest in it. I think intelligent supercar buyers will expect a tough hit on residuals, particularly as the economic climate continues.
I'm of the same opinion, ever car that I've owned was for one purpose only to enjoy and drive. If I wanted to invest in something, chances are it would not be in a vehicle. In other words if I was looking at investing in something, it would have to be a item thats either rare or better still real estate at the right price and in the right area. Even then you will never know what the item is worth until it is sold and paid for in full. As said supply and demand, if the demand is high and supply is low, well your in luck if you are selling. As well when buying something like a Lamborghini, Ferrari or a Porsche depending on the model these cars currently are quite numerous. On the other hand the McLaren not so much so. So you never know what the outcome will be with this car, especially once they get all of the issues that some of us keep talking about resolved. I have a lot of faith in the McLaren brand and the people behind the product. As I've mentioned on numerous occasions, I love ??my McLaren and do not regret making the purchase one bit. Cheers.....??
 

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Have to admit, I have quite a lot of time for PH as there has been plenty of interesting discussion there (in particular the thread on a PHer's Mclaren F1) so I'll attempt to defend it a bit.
I visit the forum most days as the humour there is superb- even looks as if I'll be staying on the PH site for Lemans24hr :eek:
There's a great cross section of threads on just about everything and anything

However when researching my next car after reading PH I can't say that it inspired me, luckily I came across forums like this (prior to Bruce getting his trade in value!! :eek:) and I found quite a bit more real information out.

I'm not a great poster on PH as you quickly learn that many aren't really interested in the facts- and I learned the word troll quite quickly :confused:
Especially when the 12C is mentioned, which is a shame because as a drivers car its amazing.
 

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Relative SH values: 458 vs MP4-12C, Jan '13 vs Oct '12

Something I posted back in October, now updated to today's date. a Couple of charts showing the quoted secondhand price of 458s and 12Cs on PH - shows how asking prices for different mileage cars have moved over November/December. A few things I'd note:

- I haven't adjusted for age of car, basically it's only two years of history on both models so to do this properly I'd need month as well as year, but this isn't available on PH. I also haven't adjusted for spec for the same reasons
- so, there's quite a lot of variation within mileage bands - 3-4,000 Mile 458s are being offered from £139,995-199,995! But the average value falls with mileage
- On this data, depreciation per 1,000 miles from the 100-1,000 mile band (i.e. excluding premiums asked on brand new cars) runs at about £1,700 for the 458 but £5,600 for the 12C over the first 5k miles. 458 asking prices hold up much better than 12Cs [this is the downward slope of the curve]
- Values have shifted downwards over the end of 2012 by about 5% for both models in the same mileage band [this is the comparison between the two sets of columns within each chart]

So, all values are falling just now, neither car is immune to depreciation but the 458 holds up better. Personally, I'd ascribe this in part to better management of secondhand prices by the Ferrari dealer network and in part to the pretty nasty reviews that the 12C suffered at launch (and the software problems not yet fully resolved). I own both and ultimately prefer the 12C. I'm betting that the 12C's image will improve with the upgrades and SH values will stabilise - but demand for £150k+ cars is pretty weak now and has been for a while.
 

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i don't bother with PH forum any more as owned by Hymarket and monitor like crazy i got emails asking not to PM other members, and most the threads just cause arguments as people post stupid comments.
 

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Not just PH. Remember Top Gear slagging off the car when it came out, yet in the December issue of the magazine they say "everyone knows that TG thinks the 12c is the best supercar out there", and they go on to state that James May made it his 'Car of the Year'! And of course JC goes on TV to tell the world that it sucks and then produces a dvd (Powered Up) whereby he puts the 12c against pretty much every other supercar and kicks their butts with it! Go figure; as has been stated several times on this forum, some people just enjoy knocking success.
 

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Something I posted back in October, now updated to today's date. a Couple of charts showing the quoted secondhand price of 458s and 12Cs on PH - shows how asking prices for different mileage cars have moved over November/December. A few things I'd note:

- I haven't adjusted for age of car, basically it's only two years of history on both models so to do this properly I'd need month as well as year, but this isn't available on PH. I also haven't adjusted for spec for the same reasons
- so, there's quite a lot of variation within mileage bands - 3-4,000 Mile 458s are being offered from £139,995-199,995! But the average value falls with mileage
- On this data, depreciation per 1,000 miles from the 100-1,000 mile band (i.e. excluding premiums asked on brand new cars) runs at about £1,700 for the 458 but £5,600 for the 12C over the first 5k miles. 458 asking prices hold up much better than 12Cs [this is the downward slope of the curve]
- Values have shifted downwards over the end of 2012 by about 5% for both models in the same mileage band [this is the comparison between the two sets of columns within each chart]

So, all values are falling just now, neither car is immune to depreciation but the 458 holds up better. Personally, I'd ascribe this in part to better management of secondhand prices by the Ferrari dealer network and in part to the pretty nasty reviews that the 12C suffered at launch (and the software problems not yet fully resolved). I own both and ultimately prefer the 12C. I'm betting that the 12C's image will improve with the upgrades and SH values will stabilise - but demand for £150k+ cars is pretty weak now and has been for a while.
You are correct in what concerns the negative remarks and reviews on the McLaren. The other sad reality is that people are actually willing to part with this beautiful car, and at such ridiculously low resale prices. I blame the manufacturer, owners and not so much the reseller. The manufacturer needs to be doing more to get the product out into the public eye i.e. advertising, media, and especially more exposure in movies hey like James Bond beautiful women and beautiful cars go hand in hand just as an example. I think that McLaren have done a great job in problem resolution, although some people would say otherwise. Which is where the owners come into the picture, they bad mouth the product due to their anal tendencies and in so doing effect the perception of this beautiful car. Grin and bear it, McLaren will resolve these issues it's just a matter of time. Rome wasn't built over night, and is there such a think as the perfect car, no some of us will always find fault in something and then voice their discontent over the Internet. As for the reseller being responsible for the reduced values once again this has impart to do with both the manufacturer / owner and not so much the reseller. The manufacturer aspect had been disclosed above as for the owner well its due to lack of appreciation of what they have or had. I'm in no hurry to get rid of this beautiful car, as for the individuals with the anal tendencies keep up the good work. In so doing we may end up with limited numbers of units being sold like the F1, which is highly unlikely but you never know. I will continue to appreciate and drive my precious, yes LOTR and I'm not Smeagol. Cheers.....??
 

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The resale statistics are what they are. I think a lot of people are posers who buy based on what they believe the average schlub will think when they drive up. Here's how it shakes out.
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1. If the schlub hears you have a Ferrari, they either say "wow" or are jealous. Good example: A friend knew an attorney who he thought was a jerk, "But you know he has a Ferrari" (like that meant he was cool). I saw Mr. Jerk, Esq. about a week later driving his 14 year old Mondial with dull red paint (yuk). I called my friend and told him his used Boxtser was worth more and was a better car. He was amazed and amused.

2. If the average schlub hears you have a McLaren, they will most often say, "What's that?"


That has an effect on resale prices. Ferrari has been building their brand brilliantly since the 50's. You can't overcome that over night.

So for me, the moral is buy the car for yourself, not someone else. If your friend asks you about it, open the scissors door (that will "wow" them), take them for a short ride and while you're talking and they are off guard, punch the accelerator to throw them back in the seat. You can toss out that it's faster than a Ferrari if you want, "But Ferraris are good cars too, you know." It's all huge fun with the people that know you. They'll tell everyone about your McLaren.

They'll probably throw that in the face of someone who has (gasp) A FERRARI. Now, we're really having fun.

If you're buying a used 12C and the prices are low, it's a steal and you are that much smarter.

That's how I see it FWIW. Everyone throw rocks at my thinking. I enjoy it.
 

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The resale statistics are what they are. I think a lot of people are posers who buy based on what they believe the average schlub will think when they drive up. Here's how it shakes out.
*
1. If the schlub hears you have a Ferrari, they either say "wow" or are jealous. Good example: A friend knew an attorney who he thought was a jerk, "But you know he has a Ferrari" (like that meant he was cool). I saw Mr. Jerk, Esq. about a week later driving his 14 year old Mondial with dull red paint (yuk). I called my friend and told him his used Boxtser was worth more and was a better car. He was amazed and amused.

2. If the average schlub hears you have a McLaren, they will most often say, "What's that?"


That has an effect on resale prices. Ferrari has been building their brand brilliantly since the 50's. You can't overcome that over night.

So for me, the moral is buy the car for yourself, not someone else. If your friend asks you about it, open the scissors door (that will "wow" them), take them for a short ride and while you're talking and they are off guard, punch the accelerator to throw them back in the seat. You can toss out that it's faster than a Ferrari if you want, "But Ferraris are good cars too, you know." It's all huge fun with the people that know you. They'll tell everyone about your McLaren.

They'll probably throw that in the face of someone who has (gasp) A FERRARI. Now, we're really having fun.

If you're buying a used 12C and the prices are low, it's a steal and you are that much smarter.

That's how I see it FWIW. Everyone throw rocks at my thinking. I enjoy it.
I could care less about what people own, have or think we are all individuals. The most important thing to me is that the car looks and performs great in my eyes. Which is the reason for selecting the McLaren, it's a beautiful car and performs like a real champion. Then theres the little things one being the swipe to open door. I know to some this may be insignificant but it's unique and avant garde and you can't go wrong with that. You gotta love it. Cheers....??
 

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I think some of you are over reacting . No car is universally liked so the 12c will have detractors .
As for its own part of Pistonheads , Ferrari , Maserati and Lambo have tens of thousands more owners than Mclaren and they dont have a forum so why should Mclaren ?

Also remember ph roots are tied to tvr , noble etc etc thats why they have own bits .

Its cool :)
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I probably am over-reacting but my point is not that people don't like the car, rather, unlike any other car I have noticed, they are actively 'persecuted' (not the right word but hopefully you will know what I mean).
 
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