What I would like to see in the MP4-12C R&D dept.

13940 Views 121 Replies 27 Participants Last post by Gazza, Jul 21, 2012

Gazza

Discussion Starter · Jun 21, 2012

If I was running the show here's what I would like to seen be done in R&D and released to the customer. I'll add to this list as I think of more important upgrades. Comments welcome. Factory please consider!

1. Reduce the door closing resistance.
2. Increase the opening height of the door. Im 6' tall and its awkard.
3. Lower the obstruction height of the lower door sill.
4. Use remote controlled valves in the exhaust system for user control of the exhaust volume.
5. Investigate the use of a LSD.
6. Investigate the use of lowering the suspension for track use by user control.
7. Offer a GT3 aero package or a street version GT3.
8. Offer harness and fire extingusher options / brackets.
9. Offer screw in tie down eyelets.
10. Compare brake force sensitivty to ideal Porsche PCCB.
11. Reduce the travel in the throttle. Reference Porsche.
12. Look at making the new door release button as a stick on type and retofittable and reversable, keeping the old touch sensor for those who what it. The new button could be passive magnetic actuation.

Several items I would have mentioned are already being done now so no need to list those.
Nothing too difficuilt really!

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6th element

· #41 · Jun 22, 2012

Wtdoom said:
i know what you mean mate , sorry if you thought otherwise .
people that think like that must live a very miserable life indeed . that means when they buy a 458 they cry themselves to sleep at night because they couldn’t afford an enzo . that is very sad .
when I’m in the gt and pull up along side a boxster , i think great car

thanks for the congratulations , its my only vice in life

cheers m8. my passion and sarcasm are often misinterpreted on this board, but that is part of the fun.

I agree the Cayman is a nice car, so too it must be said for the boxster. My sole point is that McLaren's goal was to deliver an everyday usable supercar with as much innovative technology as they could cram in and that would lap Dunsfold in 76 seconds. As any owner will say from experience, it is ludicrously easy to drive this car extremely fast in real world conditions. That said, any car that is in this performance bracket is going to take some skill and cojones to extract the 10th tenth. As a CGT owner, I'm sure you can relate. When the grip and speeds are that high, a mistake is exponentially more costly. A Cayman has the luxury of a lower performance bracket, where the average owner can reach its limits fairly easily.

Porsche has a 12C/458 fighter in development. I look forward to that car and wonder if people will complain that it is too focused on speed and uncompromising. If it is faster than the next gen 12C AND more drift-happy than a 458 at the same time, then it will likely be the best supercar in the segment. Exciting times ahead.

My last point of debate is that the 12C does not require a different driving style, as has been suggested. You still trail brake into tight corners, still turn-in the same, still apply throttle the same. What IS different is the feedback that the car gives you, as its various systems are employed. The feeling of having a softer suspension down the straights is foreign and you have to learn to trust that the roll resistance will be there when you turn in to the corner. The sensation of the car staying so flat in the turn is also strange at first, where you were expecting to feel the outside suspension compress fully to the stops. Anybody that has done a lot of fast driving in other cars has finely tuned their senses to pick up on the precise transitions of front contact patches growing under braking (with rear getting light), then the shift of weight backwards as the brake pedal pressure is removed and the weight transfer to outside tire patches on turn-in, etc. The 12C gives you different cues, that are not immediately familiar. It can be a challenge, at first, to trust them.

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laelops

· #42 · Jun 22, 2012

andy c said:
Agree

+1 on the Michelin's and seat

roundincircles

· #43 · Jun 22, 2012

6th element My last point of debate is that the 12C does [I said:
not[/I] require a different driving style, as has been suggested. You still trail brake into tight corners, still turn-in the same, still apply throttle the same. What IS different is the feedback that the car gives you, as its various systems are employed. The feeling of having a softer suspension down the straights is foreign and you have to learn to trust that the roll resistance will be there when you turn in to the corner. The sensation of the car staying so flat in the turn is also strange at first, where you were expecting to feel the outside suspension compress fully to the stops. Anybody that has done a lot of fast driving in other cars has finely tuned their senses to pick up on the precise transitions of front contact patches growing under braking (with rear getting light), then the shift of weight backwards as the brake pedal pressure is removed and the weight transfer to outside tire patches on turn-in, etc. The 12C gives you different cues, that are not immediately familiar. It can be a challenge, at first, to trust them.

This is an excellent summary of the driving issues with the MP12, well done. I'm still struggling with the straight line ride but now trust the turn in and realise faster the better, well I think I do!

6th element

· #44 · Jun 22, 2012

roundincircles said:
This is an excellent summary of the driving issues with the MP12, well done. I'm still struggling with the straight line ride but now trust the turn in and realise faster the better, well I think I do!

Also, I forgot to mention there is no "different line" to take through the corners. The proper line is the proper line, even in the 12C. There is a graphic in the brochure, I think, meant to show how Brake Steer limits understeer, that people seem to be misinterpreting.

gallardo62

· #45 · Jun 22, 2012

1) stop with that pirelli, go with michelin
2) a little bit of alcantara on my steering wheel please !
3) lift system ?
4) harness and superlight seats
5) track data display please
6) why the steel brake system don't inclue cooling duct ?
7) easier way to desengage ESP
8) what about a electric rear window like the 458 spyder (instead of the ing)
9) a track mode for rain (softer suspension setting)
10) smoother throttle response at low speed
11) but seriousely that car drink too much !!

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GT-TT

· #46 · Jun 23, 2012

6th element said:
I can post videos of Chris Harris and Chris Goodwin proving otherwise. The car can drift if you've got the skill. There is just a tremendous amount of mechanical grip to overcome first, so the speeds are going to be higher. Sacrificing outright performance for lower speed drift ability is definitely the wrong thing to do. McLaren is about being the fastest. The minute they start making decisions to the contrary, you may as well lump them in with the rest of the marques, as I can guarantee that the thought process will result in more than just an LSD but another 300 lbs of crap that the car does not need to go faster.

i.e. while we're at it, let's change to a heavier, less powerful NA motor for more fun noise and finer throttle response to help those drifts, also ditch the hydraulics for heavy roll bars which feel more familiar and definitely no need for the Air Brake as keeping the center of pressure rearward keeps too much contact patch in the back and makes low speed drifting more difficult. Voila - a heavy, slow Ferrari 458 with a kiwi badge on it. I'm not being a smart ass, I'm just convinced that is where this line of thinking leads.

6element i know because I tried myself at dunsfold. Even at track mode the brake steer was intervening at those tight corners (hammerhead?). I drove the 12c very hard (for my abilities) for those 6-7 laps and scared that instructor big time.. Also kinda broke the first car in the process -had to change car as smoke was coming from the back from some hydraulic leak.
Bottom line the car was surprising balanced and grippy on those 4th gear fast corners but on the tight ones you need to alter your style for the brake steer to work. The car was constantly braking when I was trying to place it differently even on track mode.
Not saying its bad, its just different which may throw off some people.
I still maintain that an e diff would better and more fun in conjuction with some brake steer. And I think mclaren is listening and will go that route in the gt version. Can't wait

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6th element

· #47 · Jun 23, 2012

GT-TT said:
6element i know because I tried myself at dunsfold. Even at track mode the brake steer was intervening at those tight corners (hammerhead?). I drove the 12c very hard (for my abilities) for those 6-7 laps and scared that instructor big time.. Also kinda broke the first car in the process -had to change car as smoke was coming from the back from some hydraulic leak.
Bottom line the car was surprising balanced and grippy on those 4th gear fast corners but on the tight ones you need to alter your style for the brake steer to work. The car was constantly braking when I was trying to place it differently even on track mode.
Not saying its bad, its just different which may throw off some people.
I still maintain that an e diff would better and more fun in conjuction with some brake steer. And I think mclaren is listening and will go that route in the gt version. Can't wait

Well we can certainly agree to disagree. I respect your opinion.

BTW, what makes you believe an e-diff is in the works? Has somebody said so?

GT-TT

· #48 · Jun 24, 2012

I heard from very reliable source that they are working on a new sportier version that will be based on the GT3 version. Ie the development is based on the development they did for the GT3. Hence if the GT3 has a different diff (i.e. not open) then it looks likely sth like that might go to the GT version.

6th element

· #49 · Jun 24, 2012 (Edited)

GT-TT said:
I heard from very reliable source that they are working on a new sportier version that will be based on the GT3 version. Ie the development is based on the development they did for the GT3. Hence if the GT3 has a different diff (i.e. not open) then it looks likely sth like that might go to the GT version.

Honestly, I doubt it. The decision to forego a diff was because with Brake Steer it wasn't required to achieve the performance they wanted. So, I don't think they will add equipment and weight if it won't make the car faster. I think a "GT3" variant will have v2.0 of Brake Steer, PCC and the SSG. More horsepower and even less weight due to carbon body panels and racing seats. That's all.

p.s. I'm not certain about this, but I believe Brake Steer technology would be banned from FIA GT1 (as it was banned from Formula 1 when used on MP4/12 in 1997), hence the racing car's use of a conventional diff.

Wtdoom

· #50 · Jun 24, 2012 (Edited)

Im pretty sure in f1 brake steer was used in conjunction with an lsd not instead of an lsd .
Im convinced an lsd would help accelerating out of corners , perhaps the brake steer is as good going in ( better perhaps ) but coming out ( of a corner ) a slippy is better . Braking to accelerate faster just doesn't compute , think about the physics . It isn’t as efficient , its possible but not as efficient . If you read what people like phil bennet wrote about the lack of lsd i think you would be surprised .
I must admit to hoping the gt3 version will have a porsche type brake steer / torque vectoring
( i.e. mechanical slippy diff and brake steer ) , think about it guys brake steer has been around for years . All the manufacturers out there aren’t stupid ...
Im not saying Mclaren are stupid( far far from it !) , I’m just pointing out they do not have the experience building road cars like ferrari / porsche et all . This is the only thing I would really like changed on the car .
As for drifting a car , you can drift the 12c but not as naturally and certainly not as consistently or progressively as with an lsd , facts are facts . Otherwise drift cars would have brake steer not an lsd , brake steer is hardly martian technology its what everyone else calls torque vectoring just more advanced on corner entry . The only difference is they have a slippy diff too .

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6th element

· #51 · Jun 24, 2012

Wtdoom said:
Im pretty sure in f1 brake steer was used in conjunction with an lsd not instead of an lsd .
Im convinced an lsd would help accelerating out of corners , perhaps the brake steer is as good going in ( better perhaps ) but coming out ( of a corner ) a slippy is better . Braking to accelerate faster just doesn't compute , think about the physics . It isn’t as efficient , its possible but not as efficient . If you read what people like phil bennet wrote about the lack of lsd i think you would be surprised .
I must admit to hoping the gt3 version will have a porsche type brake steer / torque vectoring
( i.e. mechanical slippy diff and brake steer ) , think about it guys brake steer has been around for years . All the manufacturers out there aren’t stupid ...
Im not saying Mclaren are stupid( far far from it !) , I’m just pointing out they do not have the experience building road cars like ferrari / porsche et all . This is the only thing I would really like changed on the car .
As for drifting a car , you can drift the 12c but not as naturally and certainly not as consistently or progressively as with an lsd , facts are facts . Otherwise drift cars would have brake steer not an lsd , brake steer is hardly martian technology its what everyone else calls torque vectoring just more advanced on corner entry . The only difference is they have a slippy diff too .

Yes of course it is the same effect as torque vectoring, which is why I believe your statement that it is not as efficient is false. Torque vectoring increases the relative torque of one wheel (i.e. the outside one if countering understeer). By definition, it is also reducing torque to the inside wheel (i.e. braking it). There is only a finite amount of torque available at any point, if one wheel gets more, the other must get less. In fact, I bet that Brake Steer is even more efficient because it eliminates any parasitic power loss from the torque needing to pass through the differential hardware. And it is lighter because it only uses equipment that already exists (brakes and ESC parts). It may not give you the feel you want, but I don't think the 12C gets any faster accelerating out of corners buy putting in a LSD. If McLaren proves me wrong, I'll gladly eat my words.

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Wtdoom

· #52 · Jun 25, 2012 (Edited)

6th element said:
Yes of course it is the same effect as torque vectoring, which is why I believe your statement that it is not as efficient is false. Torque vectoring increases the relative torque of one wheel (i.e. the outside one if countering understeer). By definition, it is also reducing torque to the inside wheel (i.e. braking it). There is only a finite amount of torque available at any point, if one wheel gets more, the other must get less. In fact, I bet that Brake Steer is even more efficient because it eliminates any parasitic power loss from the torque needing to pass through the differential hardware. And it is lighter because it only uses equipment that already exists (brakes and ESC parts). It may not give you the feel you want, but I don't think the 12C gets any faster accelerating out of corners buy putting in a LSD. If McLaren proves me wrong, I'll gladly eat my words.

The porsche torque vectoring is basically brake steer with the addition of a slippy diff a solution I remind you again , everyone is using .
Again you just mention faster , faster is not the be all and end all . This is a road car , joy should come before outright speed . A race car is for speed above all else .
Reducing torque is not exactly the same as braking a wheel , theres a subtle difference . The diff gives more torque to one wheel over the other wheel absolutely true . But brake steer actually brakes the wheel in question while its trying to accelerate , can you see the difference ? ( It almost tricks the car into thinking the conditions are worse than they actually are , to quote phil bennett) . Don’t even mention the no mans land you are in with everything turned off . Brake steer should be used in conjunction with a diff , as it was in f1 ( by Mclaren ! ) or are you going to tell me this is faster still ?
Why can only mclaren prove you wrong ? you do a disservice to the car manufacturers of the world to put mclaren on this untouchable , Godlike pedestal .
No offence but I’m not sure its about you being proved wrong or right ( thats certainly not what I want to get into ,I mean I’m not here to argue with you ).
Its what I want in the car in reply to the thread title and personally I’m not convinced about brake steer and want a slippy diff . If for nothing else for the consistency of handling on the limit and the fact that id much rather trust a tried and tested mechanical device over electronics alone any day of the week .
I also think that the 12c was designed to be driven with the electronics on , its faster that way . This is another reason why there is no slippy diff , I like to drive without electronics sometimes so I want a diff .
Then you have heat . On the road you won’t notice it but on a track this will generate enormous heat ( not to mention pad wear ) .Heat not only in the braking systems but in the hubs and everything else that connects ( tyres included ) .
Ive driven a lot of cars on track and following a 12c driven by a very good friend of mine , after a while I was all over it coming out of corners , with 100hp less ...
I’m buying this as a road car , its great as it is but it would have been greater yet with a slippy diff AND brake steer .

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6th element

· #53 · Jun 25, 2012

Wtdoom said:
The porsche torque vectoring is basically brake steer with the addition of a slippy diff a solution I remind you again , everyone is using .
Again you just mention faster , faster is not the be all and end all . This is a road car , joy should come before outright speed . A race car is for speed above all else .
Reducing torque is not exactly the same as braking a wheel , theres a subtle difference . The diff gives more torque to one wheel over the , true . But brake steer actually brakes the wheel in question while its trying to accelerate , can you see the difference ? It should be used in conjunction with a diff , as it was in f1 .
Why can only mclaren prove you wrong ? you do a disservice to the car manufacturers of the world to put mclaren on this untouchable , Godlike pedestal .
No offence but I’m not sure its about you being wrong or right ( thats certainly not what I want to get into ,I mean I’m not here to argue with you ).
Its what I want in the car in reply to the thread title and personally I’m not convinced about brake steer and want a slippy diff . If for nothing else for the consistency of handling on the limit and the fact that id much rather trust a tried and tested mechanical device over electronics alone any day of the week . I also think that the 12c was designed to be driven with the electronics on , its faster that way . This is another reason why there is no slippy diff , I like to drive without electronics sometimes so I want a diff . Im leaving out the illogic of braking to accelerate .
Then you have heat . On the road you won’t notice it but on a track this will generate enormous heat ( not to mention pad wear ) .Heat not only in the braking systems but in the hubs and everything else that connects .
Ive driven a lot of cars on track and following a 12c driven by a very good friend of mine , after a while I was all over it coming out of corners , with 100hp less ...
I’m buying this as a road car , its great but it would have been greater with a slippy diff .

I wasn't putting anybody on a pedestal, I was saying if they release the next car with a LSD and it is faster because of it, I will gladly accept it. If it is yet another compromise simply to make the car "more fun", I will be less impressed, as I firmly believe there are already market players filling that role. That's all.

Wtdoom

· #54 · Jun 25, 2012 (Edited)

6th element said:
I wasn't putting anybody on a pedestal, I was saying if they release the next car with a LSD and it is faster because of it, I will gladly accept it. If it is yet another compromise simply to make the car "more fun", I will be less impressed, as I firmly believe there are already market players filling that role. That's all.

You don’t want a super car to be more fun ?

( only kidding )

6th element

· #55 · Jun 26, 2012

Wtdoom said:
You don’t want a super car to be more fun ?
( only kidding )

I realize you're kidding but man, honestly I couldn't be having more fun. Part of that is because I know the car is unconventional and that makes it immensely interesting, rewarding and fun to drive. I think Porsche 911 are great but really I don't care to own one because there is nothing new to keep my interest. The 458, apart from its DCT, is just an evolution of the 430. The Gallardo, well..

On track and road, I have yet to find anything lacking in the 12C's handling. Maybe you will use the car differently and think something is missing, which is fine by me. My comments about McLaren's design choices have more to do with the USP that I believe is essential for their survival in this crowded market. The car's handling characteristics are just as dependent on PCC as they are on the Brake Steer, probably more so. I have zero interest in the 12C being conventionally suspended with ARB. All my other cars are built that way.

p.s. could it be your GT3 was on Cup tires and you are a more skilled or brave driver than the 12C you were following? There is certainly enough evidence to show that a 12C can lap quicker, tires notwithstanding, as it has certainly set enough magazine lap records or very close to them recently.

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GT-TT

· #56 · Jun 26, 2012

I am with wtdoom on this. I had the chance to own back to back similar car with similar power with and without LSD. The feel was really very different and the ultimate cornering speed too. But beyond a certain level of power/torque you need driving skills to get the most out an LSD as it might scare most people by pushing harder under power and keeping a slide while gaining fwd movement. I think everything is a compromise, Mclaren needed to have a quoted weight that is lower than 458 and wanted to make this car easy to drive. Respect for their choices. But there is another side to the coin.
Put an e-diff or an LSD and then negate the additional weight with some proper sport seats. This is the car that a certain kind of driver demographic would be attracted to. This was probably not a priority for the first MP4 version.
By the way the turn in with brake steer is indeed better in slow corners. But after initial turn-in the LSD can put down the power like nothing else. Especially with 600+ hp.

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6th element

· #57 · Jun 26, 2012

GT-TT said:
I am with wtdoom on this. I had the chance to own back to back similar car with similar power with and without LSD. The feel was really very different and the ultimate cornering speed too. But beyond a certain level of power/torque you need driving skills to get the most out an LSD as it might scare most people by pushing harder under power and keeping a slide while gaining fwd movement. I think everything is a compromise, Mclaren needed to have a quoted weight that is lower than 458 and wanted to make this car easy to drive. Respect for their choices. But there is another side to the coin.
Put an e-diff or an LSD and then negate the additional weight with some proper sport seats. This is the car that a certain kind of driver demographic would be attracted to. This was probably not a priority for the first MP4 version.
By the way the turn in with brake steer is indeed better in slow corners. But after initial turn-in the LSD can put down the power like nothing else. Especially with 600+ hp.

You guys are relentless, however I am still not convinced. I, too, have driven many road cars and track/racecars on the track with a variety of systems, including Ferrari's e-diff in 430 Scud/458, mechanical diff in the 430 Challenge, etc. The 12C wants for nothing, in comparison to anything I have driven, when it comes to putting the power down on corner exit. In fact it is one of the car's strengths. Of course it can maintain forward progress with yaw angle - don't forget there is calibration and integration of TC & ESC at work, too. Yes, it is designed to be fastest with systems ON, that has never been a secret but rather a goal. The TC is the most unobtrusive I have experienced - you can feel the rears slipping slightly but it never crudely chops the power. Actually, I think it might be too lenient and they may reign it in once a few more cars get wrecked.

I know some self-proclaimed pundits out there (not you guys) were up in arms over the lack of LSD before the car ever even turned a wheel. Most of them seemed to have disappeared or changed their tune now that the car is posting blistering lap times all over the place. Again and for the record, I'll give you that an LSD will provide a different feel which is preferred by some, especially for systems OFF driving. But will it make the car ultimately faster? I still doubt it. Ironic thing is, we will never know because even if they do add one to a future variant, that car is already going to be faster due to more power and other advancements.

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ergoproxy

· #58 · Jun 27, 2012

Someone on fchat claimed the average amateur driver would post a quicker time in a 458 than a 12C. He had a lot of experience in both. Could this be due the higher grip and lower slip angle taking some getting used to?

andy c

· #59 · Jun 27, 2012

ergoproxy said:
Someone on fchat claimed the average amateur driver would post a quicker time in a 458 than a 12C. He had a lot of experience in both. Could this be due the higher grip and lower slip angle taking some getting used to?

Too True (not on the quciker time) , the grip is endless and it takes a brave man (or alot of room) to find the end of it.But i would still say you would post a quicker time as the 458 would be going sideways while the 12c was still gripping on

ergoproxy

· #60 · Jun 28, 2012

I thought the fchat post was nonsense but it was the authoritative type that isn't worth challenging.
It was interesting, even calling the 458 a track car and 12C a road car.
True in a limited sense. Very limited IMO.

I only brought it up because I assumed a LSD would increase slip angle in some settings like sharp corner entry and WOT exits. Many of us grew up driving nose heavy cars with V8s and mech limited slip ( called posi?). Perhaps such dynamics are comforting

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