Thoughts since the V8 will continue?

3170 Views 65 Replies 30 Participants Last post by Bankai, 3 d ago

mkraft3003

Discussion Starter · 26 d ago (Edited)

Let’s get a discussion going on everyone’s speculation on the future and how the 750s will shake out. I think a lot of people assumed this was going to be the last V8 and that the next supercar was going to be a V6 hybrid. This made the 750s the last of its kind and with the alleged short run it was positioned to be a must have car (Assuming you don’t already have a 765lt)

Now that we know the next generation will be a V8 hybrid and there will be a significant increase in HP (and assuming performance) what does that do to the market? There will be those that argue that no way do they want a hybrid as it adds weight, but the counter argument is the weight would be offset by the increased HP.

I think it’s safe to assume that we will see a totally new design for the car. A lot will hinge on how the new car looks, but Mclaren does a good job with their cars. Assuming the performance is better than the 720s and 750s does that market take a big hit? I think the market would stay strong IF the next car was a V6 hybrid but that’s not the case now.

Thoughts And speculation?
(As a disclaimer I go into every car purchase assuming I will lose a ton. I buy to enjoy and life’s too short to worry about resale).

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ZombiePhysicist

· #2 · 26 d ago

High horsepower is a dime a dozen. Low weight is not. Also complexity/reliability (lack there of) make hybrid a no go for me.

Anyway, the stand out with Mclaren is not more HP. It’s more HP at low weight. That the artura is 3400lbs is amazing for a hybrid. Maybe the V8 could come in even slightly lower.

The market is so confusing now, taking a hit is hard to predict. So if you’re getting a car your best bet is to love it rather than speculate on it. Well at least for me it is as guessing hits is not my forte.

Im likely in the minority. I care less and less about HP and more and more about light weight. Seems that’s the true rarity these days.

But as always, ymmv. Great question/topic. Look forward to seeing what others think.

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mkraft3003

Discussion Starter · #3 · 26 d ago

ZombiePhysicist said:
High horsepower is a dime a dozen. Low weight is not. Also complexity/reliability (lack there of) make hybrid a no go for me.

Anyway, the stand out with Mclaren is not more HP. It’s more HP at low weight. That the artura is 3400lbs is amazing for a hybrid. Maybe the V8 could come in even slightly lower.

The market is so confusing now, taking a hit is hard to predict. So if you’re getting a car your best bet is to love it rather than speculate on it. Well at least for me it is as guessing hits is not my forte.

Im likely in the minority. I care less and less about HP and more and more about light weight. Seems that’s the true rarity these days.

But as always, ymmv. Great question/topic. Look forward to seeing what others think.

Long live Colin Chapman!!!

Reactions: 5

invisiblewave

· #4 · 26 d ago

ZombiePhysicist said:
High horsepower is a dime a dozen. Low weight is not. Also complexity/reliability (lack there of) make hybrid a no go for me.

Anyway, the stand out with Mclaren is not more HP. It’s more HP at low weight. That the artura is 3400lbs is amazing for a hybrid. Maybe the V8 could come in even slightly lower.

The market is so confusing now, taking a hit is hard to predict. So if you’re getting a car your best bet is to love it rather than speculate on it. Well at least for me it is as guessing hits is not my forte.

Im likely in the minority. I care less and less about HP and more and more about light weight. Seems that’s the true rarity these days.

But as always, ymmv. Great question/topic. Look forward to seeing what others think.

I agree, weight is key. The big unknown for the next car is how far battery tech will have advanced. Even with an Artura-sized battery, coupled to a new V8 it should be easy to get >900, and assuming battery energy-density has improved by then, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think it might be well over 900 with significantly less extra weight than the Artura has. Definitely makes the 750S less desirable, imo. Having driven the Artura with torque-fill, that's the holy grail for me, reliability issues notwithstanding, but I'm assuming that by then they'll have it all sorted out.

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invisiblewave

· #5 · 26 d ago

mkraft3003 said:
Long live Colin Chapman!!!

But isn't he dead???

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mkraft3003

Discussion Starter · #6 · 26 d ago

invisiblewave said:
But isn't he dead???

Lol. Yes but his lightweight theory/designs will hopefully continue.

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ZombiePhysicist

· #7 · 26 d ago

I know others disagree, but I do think (purely my speculation based on corvette lineup) there is a slight chance with the v8 that they could release a non hybrid variant with the new engine and that would throw all kinds of wrenches at the 7xx series.

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mkraft3003

Discussion Starter · #8 · 26 d ago

ZombiePhysicist said:
I know others disagree, but I do think (purely my speculation based on corvette lineup) there is a slight chance with the v8 that they could release a non hybrid variant with the new engine and that would throw all kinds of wrenches at the 7xx series.

If it can make money without spending too much in R&D then it makes sense. They company needs a steady cash flow to get things back on track. If they can fix the QC issues and ramp up production it would be great!!

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Kaiser

· #9 · 26 d ago

mkraft3003 said:
If it can make money without spending too much in R&D then it makes sense. They company needs a steady cash flow to get things back on track. If they can fix the QC issues and ramp up production it would be great!!

Big if on fixing QC issues at this point after seeing how the Artura rollout is going even after all the delays to prevent such issues....

That said, I love the idea of the V8 living on another generation. Hopefully, we will see both a hybrid and fully ICE, as @ZombiePhysicist said. The 296 is a fine performer, but V8 over V6 any day of the week.

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Tumbleweed

· #10 · 25 d ago

Lightness rules! I just can't see a V6 hybrid or V8 hybrid ever weighing as light as an ICE non-hybrid. At least not in the next 10 years or so. McLaren is all about lightness but even GMA, the ultimate light cars, is planning a hybrid. My guess is that McLaren will have a super cool, high hp V8 hybrid but it will weigh around 3300 lbs/1500 kgs. I don't feel McLaren will offer an ICE non-hybrid. I'll keep my 750S for a long time.

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Jo_sta7

· #11 · 25 d ago

I love it. I'd love to see the next gen V8 keep the same torque as the current model but rev to 9000. That would push the ICE power above 800 and be a perfect companion to the hybrid architecture. It would be OK if the had to move the torque curve up causing lag since the electric motors will be there to assist.

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invisiblewave

· #12 · 25 d ago

Jo_sta7 said:
I love it. I'd love to see the next gen V8 keep the same torque as the current model but rev to 9000. That would push the ICE power above 800 and be a perfect companion to the hybrid architecture. It would be OK if the had to move the torque curve up causing lag since the electric motors will be there to assist.

Doesn't turbocharging typically limit the revs? Where's @Bridster when you need him??

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Kaiser

· #13 · 25 d ago

invisiblewave said:
Doesn't turbocharging typically limit the revs? Where's @Bridster when you need him??

It does indeed.

sainthoo

· #14 · 25 d ago

I am jumping in now, specifically to avoid a hybrid.
But, maybe I’m a Luddite? I would take a 4 banger (think Exige), manual and analog, so I’m not much of a marketing person’s dream.

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qvpower

· #15 · 25 d ago

I'm speculating that the new v8 would be a redevelopment of the existing v8 and not a completely new design. Their engines now arent really that heavy at a tad above 430lbs. Possibly lightening up the engine further as the easiest method. The TTv8 hybrid has been a go to layout from Porsche to Ferrari with possibly Lamborghini next for its huracan replacement. Thus, its no surprise Mclaren would continue. That being said, battery and ev tech advances since the P1 probably would provide lower weight, increased range along with a V8 TT layout. But overall I think weight would hover around 3400-3500 which in a best case scenario would be equal to the Artura.

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gsxrian

· #16 · 25 d ago

invisiblewave said:
Doesn't turbocharging typically limit the revs? Where's @Bridster when you need him??

Not necessarily .... my NA 1000cc motorcycles rev to 14k rpm, my supercharged 1000cc motorcycles also rev to 14k rpm.

Iron5

· #17 · 25 d ago

I hope McLaren takes somewhat like the Maserati approach: a superlight pure internal combustion V8 with around 820ps and in addition a hybrid version with an additional 150ps.

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Jo_sta7

· #18 · 25 d ago

Ferrari 296 revs to like 8700 I think.

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Bridster

· #19 · 25 d ago

invisiblewave said:
Doesn't turbocharging typically limit the revs? Where's @Bridster when you need him??

Sort of.

Many people will tell you this is because in a turbocharged engine pistons and the whole rotating assembly need to be stronger and heavier, but that's actually not the reason. After all, the engine can rev to the same speed whether it's just spinning its internals (which weigh a few kg) in neutral, or whether it's pushing the whole 1000kg+ car in gear.

There are two main reasons, I would say, although none of them are really a hard limit:

1. Turbos are only efficient in a certain RPM range, so if you design the setup with smaller turbos to limit lag (as most OEMs do), the torque will fall off at higher RPMs and your peak power will be at a relatively low RPM as a result. Once you are past peak power there is no point revving any higher. However, if you wanted to, you definitely could design an engine where the turbos are most efficient at very high RPMs and have the peak power there, but then you would have no power whatsoever in the low and mid range. That's why you can see some turbocharged racing engines going as high as 15k RPM (as in Indycar, for example), but you won't see it in a road car.
2. Turbo engines run much hotter and at higher RPMs it's harder to control knock.

I don't expect that we will see turbo engines revving to 10000RPM being common-place any time soon, but in theory, with enough trickery (variable turbo geometry, or sequential turbos or electrical turbos, or simply electrical assist allowing for bigger turbos with more lag), it could very well happen one day. Both the Artura, the 720S and the 296GTB are already making peak power at over 8000RPM with redlines at 8500RPM. Which is relatively high all things considered. I don't think that peak power at 8500RPM with 9000RPM rev limit is out of the question.

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invisiblewave

· #20 · 25 d ago

Bridster said:
Sort of.

Many people will tell you this is because in a turbocharged engine pistons and the whole rotating assembly need to be stronger and heavier, but that's actually not the reason. After all, the engine can rev to the same speed whether it's just spinning its internals (which weigh a few kg) in neutral, or whether it's pushing the whole 1000kg+ car in gear.

There are two main reasons, I would say, although none of them are really a hard limit:

1. Turbos are only efficient in a certain RPM range, so if you design the setup with smaller turbos to limit lag (as most OEMs do), the torque will fall off at higher RPMs and your peak power will be at a relatively low RPM as a result. Once you are past peak power there is no point revving any higher. However, if you wanted to, you definitely could design an engine where the turbos are most efficient at very high RPMs and have the peak power there, but then you would have no power whatsoever in the low and mid range. That's why you can see some turbocharged racing engines going as high as 15k RPM (as in Indycar, for example), but you won't see it in a road car.
2. Turbo engines run much hotter and at higher RPMs it's harder to control knock.

I don't expect that we will see turbo engines revving to 10000RPM being common-place any time soon, but in theory, with enough trickery (variable turbo geometry, or sequential turbos or electrical turbos, or simply electrical assist allowing for bigger turbos with more lag), it could very well happen one day. Both the Artura, the 720S and the 296GTB are already making peak power at over 8000RPM with redlines at 8500RPM. Which is relatively high all things considered. I don't think that peak power at 8500RPM with 9000RPM rev limit is out of the question.

I never understood, after driving a mid-nineties 911TT with sequential turbos, why everyone didn't do this. The driving experience was phenomenal compared to other turbocharged engines at the time. But then I read an article about the complications involved in operating a sequential turbo design! 😭

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