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‘Weight, cost, and size are all issues that plague the battery packs used in hybrids, PHEVs, and BEVs. Despite the small size and capacity of the battery in a vehicle like the Aqua, there are gains to be had from improving any or all of those factors. And that's exactly what Toyota did here. The new nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) battery pack uses a novel design to both shrink the size and increase the output of the pack.
The new pack utilizes "bipolar electrodes;" it essentially removes some parts that separate the cells from each other, shrinking the pack from a collection of separate cells to a single conglomerate stack. That means Toyota can cram 1.4 times the amount of cells in the same space, and that the pack in total generates 1.5 times the power output. Essentially, Toyota has doubled the pack's total output—but with a cost implication that, frankly, we don't have the information to evaluate.’
No comment about the tech, but Toyota bet get its ass in gear. It's fighting so hard to avoid EV. It's inevitable. They should be investing their cash flow while they have it. They're going to be so far behind by the time they're ready do any real volume.
 

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I beg to differ with you. Full service with no safety driver, they already hit lvl 4 a while ago, and lvl 5 is things like somehow got stuck on a railroad track, and a train is coming, or found itself on a dirt road during a flash flood, things outside of the normal driving conditions that even most humans aren't expected to cope with. There is a reason why in CA they are the only ones allowed to operate without a safety driver as well, and that was given a couple years ago. Tesla is a long ways from getting that certification still. Actually, where Tesla is now is about where Google X, now Waymo, was in 2012. They still have a long ways to go, but I can say that Tesla is definitely moving quickly in that regards This is one area that I know better than most, and also know most of the major players on a personal level.
Tesla in their regulatory filings to the state of CA claims they only reached level 2. But, sure, I'd believe their press releases instead.
 

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Not surprising since we've seen just how fast the Plaid is in standalone drag races. Makes you question why anyone would buy a Turbo S Taycan though at this point.
For drag strips ? yeah no. For actually driving ? The handling and steering is vastly better than Tesla's. Allegedly the Plaid suspension is a big upgrade. Haven't had a chance to drive one yet. The previous Model S and the current model 3 are anesthetized and generally awful dynamically. Tesla's are transportation appliances, not sports cars. The taycan is more like an M5. Not a sports car exactly, but at least enjoyable.
 

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I beg to differ with you. Full service with no safety driver, they already hit lvl 4 a while ago, and lvl 5 is things like somehow got stuck on a railroad track, and a train is coming, or found itself on a dirt road during a flash flood, things outside of the normal driving conditions that even most humans aren't expected to cope with. There is a reason why in CA they are the only ones allowed to operate without a safety driver as well, and that was given a couple years ago. Tesla is a long ways from getting that certification still. Actually, where Tesla is now is about where Google X, now Waymo, was in 2012. They still have a long ways to go, but I can say that Tesla is definitely moving quickly in that regards This is one area that I know better than most, and also know most of the major players on a personal level.
They do have a safety drive. We're talking about this. Waymo.

They still have safety drivers, and those that do not, a, mess-up, but b, are on controlled 'known' routes/zones that are not "go anywhere" level 4 driving.

"He chronicles both those with a safety driver on board and those that are full-self-driving with only the "Waymo Driver" (computer) and no human backup."

The passenger notes he's been stranded 3 times and that he plans for 'something happening' (around the 15:45 mark, he gets stuck around the 12:30 mark, et gets nudged to move around 17 mark only to block off the entire road).

Road side was sent immediately to deal with it and they also have human oversight remotely. Human intervention. So again, we're around level 3.5 and the race is for real level 4. I do think the progress is promising and impressive. But it aint level 4 in my opinion. Then again, reasonable people can disagree.

As for the relative progress of Tesla to Waymo (Waymo being ahead by your estimation). I tend to agree. Thats why I put in a range of level 3.3-3.5. I would put Tesla at around 3.3 (for their still not widely released beta) and Waymo at around 3.5. And why I reassert it's a race to level 4.
 

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Is there really a reason to buy any other high-end sedan over thing? I can't really think of one. Massage seats? lol
For drag strips ? yeah no. For actually driving ? The handling and steering is vastly better than Tesla's. Allegedly the Plaid suspension is a big upgrade. Haven't had a chance to drive one yet. The previous Model S and the current model 3 are anesthetized and generally awful dynamically. Tesla's are transportation appliances, not sports cars. The taycan is more like an M5. Not a sports car exactly, but at least enjoyable.
funny how no one has mentioned the interior. While the new Plaid interior is a vast improvement over older MS sedans, it’s hardly up to snuff with its European counterparts outside of electronics. Hell I’d argue the interior of the new Ram pickups (limited or TRX) is nicer than the plaid.
 

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Discussion Starter · #126 · (Edited)
No comment about the tech, but Toyota bet get its ass in gear. It's fighting so hard to avoid EV. It's inevitable. They should be investing their cash flow while they have it. They're going to be so far behind by the time they're ready do any real volume.
No Toyota has a major effort in battery EV and has had for many years. They hold over 1000 patents on solid state batteries.
“Toyota is the Pioneer of Solid-state Battery Research and Development with a Lion's Share of Patent Ownership”
 

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For drag strips ? yeah no. For actually driving ? The handling and steering is vastly better than Tesla's. Allegedly the Plaid suspension is a big upgrade. Haven't had a chance to drive one yet. The previous Model S and the current model 3 are anesthetized and generally awful dynamically. Tesla's are transportation appliances, not sports cars. The taycan is more like an M5. Not a sports car exactly, but at least enjoyable.
Yeah, but then just get the Taycan Turbo or 4S or whatever. No need to pay for the Turbo S when it's so far behind the leader in that sense.
 

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No Toyota has a major effort in battery EV and has had for many years. They hold over 1000 patents on solid state batteries.
“Toyota is the Pioneer of Solid-state Battery Research and Development with a Lion's Share of Patent Ownership”
I'm sure they do, but who knows if we'll ever see it or if they'll even be first to debut it meaningfully. Solid state batteries are the graphene for batteries. They promise the world, they're always seeing "breakthroughs", yet they're still nowhere in mass production. Might never be. Who knows...
 

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Discussion Starter · #130 ·
I'm sure they do, but who knows if we'll ever see it or if they'll even be first to debut it meaningfully. Solid state batteries are the graphene for batteries. They promise the world, they're always seeing "breakthroughs", yet they're still nowhere in mass production. Might never be. Who knows...
Hmmm I was responding to your statement “but Toyota bet get its ass in gear. It's fighting so hard to avoid EV. It's inevitable.” ….
My thought is that Japan inc is working in a co-ordinated manner to be a major competitor in the battery and EV market. Together with other manufacturers developments the Japanese have Toyota and Panasonic working together to serve the EV market.
 

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Not surprising since we've seen just how fast the Plaid is in standalone drag races. Makes you question why anyone would buy a Turbo S Taycan though at this point.
Better build quality. Better interior. Better handling. More exotic looking.

I have zero interest in either one of these cars but to think that everyone wants a Tesla is not reality.
 

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Tesla in their regulatory filings to the state of CA claims they only reached level 2. But, sure, I'd believe their press releases instead.
That was my point, only one company has achieved true driverless operation approval in CA (Waymo), and while there are others nearing that, Tesla is still at lvl 2, no matter what the Tesla press releases say. Regulatory filings and approvals are more indicative of actual achievement than press releases and news articles. Again, that said, Tesla is definitely quickly improving their capability, especially compared to others.

When discussing Waymo or Cruise, they are way way ahead of where Tesla is now. Even the one instance that Zombie discusses above trying to prove his point shows that the Waymo vehicle was giving a public user a ride, and the car had no safety driver/Waymo employee inside. Even the article posted says as much. A Waymo road side assistance employee had to be dispatched to the site to help in this instance, which is rare. There are very few disengagements reported for miles driven with these vehicles, even with dealing with construction and other similar events.
 

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w Plaid interior is a vast improvement over older MS sedans, it’s hardly up to snuff with its European counterparts outside of electronics. Hell I’d argue the interior of the new Ram pickups (limited or TRX) is nicer than the plaid.
I think it has been mentioned several times in this thread, as well as general fit and finish, materials used, etc. It just keeps getting overlooked by the people saying that Tesla is the best, and there are no real competitors to it.
 

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That was my point, only one company has achieved true driverless operation approval in CA (Waymo), and while there are others nearing that, Tesla is still at lvl 2, no matter what the Tesla press releases say. Regulatory filings and approvals are more indicative of actual achievement than press releases and news articles. Again, that said, Tesla is definitely quickly improving their capability, especially compared to others.

When discussing Waymo or Cruise, they are way way ahead of where Tesla is now. Even the one instance that Zombie discusses above trying to prove his point shows that the Waymo vehicle was giving a public user a ride, and the car had no safety driver/Waymo employee inside. Even the article posted says as much. A Waymo road side assistance employee had to be dispatched to the site to help in this instance, which is rare. There are very few disengagements reported for miles driven with these vehicles, even with dealing with construction and other similar events.
not rare. You ignored that the same rider stated he was stranded on 3 other occasions and prepares for problems on the ride. And that there was remote intervention. None of that reasonably leads to a conclusion of “rare” IMO. Quite the contrary, seems rather expected.

Also it ignores that Tesla has deployed a beta that is clearly beyond level 2. If we’re evaluating waymos clearly beta software, then the level 3 beta stuff from Tesla need also be considered. That one has state approval to work in driverless taxis vs another being an accoutrement of an owned car is not proof of anything since those are vastly different deployments.
 

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funny how no one has mentioned the interior. While the new Plaid interior is a vast improvement over older MS sedans, it’s hardly up to snuff with its European counterparts outside of electronics. Hell I’d argue the interior of the new Ram pickups (limited or TRX) is nicer than the plaid.
I think the avg buyer for a Tesla is wildly different from a typical buyer of a luxury sedan. They are purchasing based on the appeal of Tesla's hype as the forerunner of electric cars, not because they want a luxury car. They are probably younger, probably work in tech, and probably not a gearhead, all factors which lend to appreciating not disliking Tesla's infotainment and minimalist design and prioritizing it in their purchase decision. They probably don't even care that much about performance, the only ones who do seem to be the Tesla internet fanboys (who in most cases don't even own a Tesla). IMO, there is really very little overlap between the two markets and the rest can be explained by people with disposable incomes wanting to try a novelty. If true, this also explains why you were able to get bumped up in the waiting list. The avg buyer doesn't want a Plaid and the ones who are considering a car at that price range have different priorities.
 

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not rare. You ignored that the same rider stated he was stranded on 3 other occasions and prepares for problems on the ride. And that there was remote intervention. None of that reasonably leads to a conclusion of “rare” IMO. Quite the contrary, seems rather expected.

Also it ignores that Tesla has deployed a beta that is clearly beyond level 2. If we’re evaluating waymos clearly beta software, then the level 3 beta stuff from Tesla need also be considered. That one has state approval to work in driverless taxis vs another being an accoutrement of an owned car is not proof of anything since those are vastly different deployments.
Last reply I make in regard to this as I get the feeling that no matter what I say, you will still keep believing what you believe. I will stand behind my comment "Tesla is currently about where Goole X/Waymo was in 2012." One thing to ask yourself to see where the different companies stand: "If in self-driving/autopilot mode, who is responsible if the car is at fault for an accident?" Doesn't matter if it is acting as a taxi or as a personal vehicle, but who would be considered the driver in a court of law? For Tesla, it's the individual who was supposed to be the driver, even with their most advanced, prerelease stuff. With Waymo, even with their older tech, Waymo is responsible for any accident that occurs, even if it being used as a personal vehicle.
 

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Last reply I make in regard to this as I get the feeling that no matter what I say, you will still keep believing what you believe. I will stand behind my comment "Tesla is currently about where Goole X/Waymo was in 2012." One thing to ask yourself to see where the different companies stand: "If in self-driving/autopilot mode, who is responsible if the car is at fault for an accident?" Doesn't matter if it is acting as a taxi or as a personal vehicle, but who would be considered the driver in a court of law? For Tesla, it's the individual who was supposed to be the driver, even with their most advanced, prerelease stuff. With Waymo, even with their older tech, Waymo is responsible for any accident that occurs, even if it being used as a personal vehicle.
Legal liability is in no way proxy for actual driving. Legally we can contract that youre responsible for all my wrongs. It is a false proxy. Meaningless in any honest engineering evaluation.

Further, what Tesla is testing in beta is not what applied for years back. Moreover, I ackwoledged that I think Waymo is ahead of Tesla. You just think they are further ahead. you're entitled to your opinion. I stand by mine. What Tesla plans to release will be around a category 3.3 self driving vehicle with their current beta from what I saw from it, and Waymo is around a category 3.5 level car.

You may think Tesla is at a 2 and waymo is at a 11. That's youre perogitive, and mine is point out where I think youre wrong. I've done so with empirical evidence (video of actual failed Waymo ride, a rider mentioning he has been stranded 3 other times, remote intervention by waymo, and testimony by the same driver that he takes those rides with preparations in expecting problems--something not done by normal taxi riders operated by humans). Also here is an example of the current beta (first random search result I saw, I haven't even looked at it, but this is where it's at).


Your support is of their legal standing.

Also, your passive aggressive "sigh youre so dumb and wont listen to reason anyway" is the first sign of a losing argument.
 

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It kinda doesn’t matter. It’s going to be a long time before any of these are level 4, let alone level 5. And even once they are, it’ll be years before regulators permit them to handle the legal liability issues.

the assholes driving Tesla from the back seat no hands, and Uber testing their software by mowing down bicyclists are really poisoning the regulatory well.

none of this shit is real until I can have 5 drinks at the bar and my car take me home. Lawfully.
 

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It kinda doesn’t matter. It’s going to be a long time before any of these are level 4, let alone level 5. And even once they are, it’ll be years before regulators permit them to handle the legal liability issues.

the assholes driving Tesla from the back seat no hands, and Uber testing their software by mowing down bicyclists are really poisoning the regulatory well.

none of this shit is real until I can have 5 drinks at the bar and my car take me home. Lawfully.
Well regulators are already allowing Waymo to use their taxis in a bunch of cities. It is literally here and now. Level 5 is a red herring, it's meaningful to geeks. Level 4 is what matters in the big way. We are not far from it, IMO, but then again, until you can get hammered in the back and the car is doing what it needs to (without packing an emergency stuck pack), it's all noise.

My only point is, there is a chance you might be surprised that it's not as far off as you think when it comes.

I for one look forward to it. While I love love LOVE driving myself, there are times on long road trips where setting it to auto and taking a nap would be super cool.
 
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