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If you can’t think of ONE then you’re not in the market for a high end luxury sedan. In fact insane performance is probably one of the last things the ‘average’ person looks for when buying a high end luxury sedan. I love fast cars but performance is definitely not in my top 3 when looking for a genuine luxury sedan. This doesn’t mean I want a car that does10 seconds 0-60, but it also means that many things come BEFORE 2s 0-60 as well...
If you ignore the status symbol cars like Rolls Royce and just look at the cars in this price range, there's much to offer aside from some veneer and maybe better road noise.

The best luxury car IMO is one that you're driven in. To me, Tesla already has the most luxurious feature of any car by a mile with AP/FSD. It's not a chauffeur yet, but they are leaps and bounds better than everyone else when it comes to relaxing driving and entertainment.
 

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If you ignore the status symbol cars like Rolls Royce and just look at the cars in this price range, there's much to offer aside from some veneer and maybe better road noise.

The best luxury car IMO is one that you're driven in. To me, Tesla already has the most luxurious feature of any car by a mile with AP/FSD. It's not a chauffeur yet, but they are leaps and bounds better than everyone else when it comes to relaxing driving and entertainment.
You’re an interesting cat...If your Tesla gets into an accident while it’s ‘self-driving’ who’s fault is it? You might want to pay attention to the road in the meantime while you’re dreaming of being ‘chauffeured.’

Sit in an S63AMG...then a Model S. Which one has the veneer? LOL. Road noise and ride quality matter to me...so does the quality of the materials that surround me. But...to each their own.

Tesla has done a great job of improving performance to insane levels, and in some areas fit and finish...but it’s still got a ways to go on the latter IMHO.
 

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If you ignore the status symbol cars like Rolls Royce and just look at the cars in this price range, there's much to offer aside from some veneer and maybe better road noise.

The best luxury car IMO is one that you're driven in. To me, Tesla already has the most luxurious feature of any car by a mile with AP/FSD. It's not a chauffeur yet, but they are leaps and bounds better than everyone else when it comes to relaxing driving and entertainment.
FYI, please don’t put too much trust into Tesla autopilot. It’s got a long ways to go to be true self driving. Tesla’s system is still considered lvl 2 autonomous for a reason (true full autonomous driving with no safety driver is lvl 5).

For most people, luxury cars are luxurious with materials, fit and finish, and comfort and ride, more than outright performance. If you think that there aren’t any other luxury sedans in the price range that don’t beat Tesla in these segements, you are truly blind.
 

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FYI, please don’t put too much trust into Tesla autopilot. It’s got a long ways to go to be true self driving. Tesla’s system is still considered lvl 2 autonomous for a reason (true full autonomous driving with no safety driver is lvl 5).

For most people, luxury cars are luxurious with materials, fit and finish, and comfort and ride, more than outright performance. If you think that there aren’t any other luxury sedans in the price range that don’t beat Tesla in these segements, you are truly blind.
Yeah, it's not anywhere near level 5, but it's way better than anyone else. I mean, if you buy a $500K Rolls Royce or a $300K Bentley, do they have anything even close to AP or FSD?

I don't really understand the criticism of the Model S interior and finish. I mean, the typical 765LT for example comes covered head to toe in alcantara and "plastic". It's not like those are very luxurious, but people will pay $50K for them in options.

I honestly think most of the complaints are more related to style than quality. The seats are really comfortable, the cabin is very spacious, infotainment is a league above everyone else.
 

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Yeah, it's not anywhere near level 5, but it's way better than anyone else. I mean, if you buy a $500K Rolls Royce or a $300K Bentley, do they have anything even close to AP or FSD?

I don't really understand the criticism of the Model S interior and finish. I mean, the typical 765LT for example comes covered head to toe in alcantara and "plastic". It's not like those are very luxurious, but people will pay $50K for them in options.

I honestly think most of the complaints are more related to style than quality. The seats are really comfortable, the cabin is very spacious, infotainment is a league above everyone else.
No, your driver gets paid, they don't need driving assistance.
 

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Yeah, it's not anywhere near level 5, but it's way better than anyone else. I mean, if you buy a $500K Rolls Royce or a $300K Bentley, do they have anything even close to AP or FSD?
There is a company that has a full level 5 public service running in Arizona, and it’s also the only one approved to operate at lvl 5 in California

I don't really understand the criticism of the Model S interior and finish. I mean, the typical 765LT for example comes covered head to toe in alcantara and "plastic". It's not like those are very luxurious, but people will pay $50K for them in options.
The 765LT is no luxury car. Why are you using that as a comparison for a luxury car?? I doubt anyone here takes anything you say with any seriousness at this point, I sure don’t. And for the record, Tesla fit and finish is horrible, one of the worst currently in the automotive business, and no 2 cars they put out are the same in how bad or where they come up short. Sometimes it’s interior, sometimes exterior, sometimes so bad that it requires being resent to manufacture for refitmemt of panels/dash, etc. so bad they should have never made it through any QA process. Not saying they don’t have their pluses, but these points you are trying to argue are definitely are not it, especially when comparing in the luxury car segment.
 

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FYI, please don’t put too much trust into Tesla autopilot. It’s got a long ways to go to be true self driving. Tesla’s system is still considered lvl 2 autonomous for a reason (true full autonomous driving with no safety driver is lvl 5).

For most people, luxury cars are luxurious with materials, fit and finish, and comfort and ride, more than outright performance. If you think that there aren’t any other luxury sedans in the price range that don’t beat Tesla in these segements, you are truly blind.
While what you say is technically accurate, level 4 will be 'true' self driving. Level 5 is basically including human scenarios outside the norm. For example, what happens when you decide you need to drive your car into a sky scraper, into the elevator that might not be rated for the weight of the car, and on to the display floor podium for a car show. This is an irrelevancy for daily driving. It will also include super human abilities like to drive your car at 150mph through an intersection because the car is networked with other cars and knows no other car is near to make that a safe traversal.

Level 4 is where the true race is.

Also, Tesla is probably somewhere around level 2.5 currently on the scale. I think you'll see Tesla jump to level 3.3-3.5 with its big release/update of FSD (probably by next year), and from there, the race will be on by all the makes with regard to who claws their way to true level 4 autonomy first.

Also, level 4 autonomy will mean hands off, and truckers losing their jobs.


"
Level 1 – Driver Assistance

A Level 1 vehicle has at least one driver-assist that can manipulate speed and steering inputs, but all other driving tasks such as lane changing and turning remain the responsibility of the driver. Technology like adaptive cruise control, which maintains a set speed but also decelerates and even comes to a stop, is convenient in bumper-to-bumper traffic. But the driver must still control entering and exiting a highway.



Level 1 vehicles employ driver assists that control any aspect of acceleration, deceleration, and braking. This includes but is not limited to adaptive cruise control, lane-keeping assist, automatic emergency braking, and parking assist.

Level 2 – Partial Autonomous Driving
Qualifying vehicles are equipped with at least two semi-autonomous features that work together in fixed scenarios. For instance, a combination of adaptive cruise and lane-keeping assist can minimize driver fatigue on long drives. However, these systems will deactivate if a driver’s hand is not detected on the steering wheel after a certain amount of time – usually within 20 seconds. Even with Level 2 “self-parking” technology, the driver must still be present to take control as needed.





Systems like Cadillac Super Cruise, Nissan ProPilot Assist, Tesla Autopilot, and Volvo IntelliSafe Autopilot, although impressive, are Level 2 systems. And that means you can’t check email, or watch movies, or Snapchat instead of paying attention.

Level 3 – Conditional Automation
Where the previous levels mean a vehicle’s assists can handle certain operations, a driver is still must monitor the driving situation and take over if necessary. At Level 3, both the driving dynamics and observation of surroundings are handled by automated driving systems. But the technology is only autonomous under certain conditions, such as mapped roads and divided highways with physical barriers. A driver also must remain alert behind the wheel as a backup.

The 2019 Audi A8 is the first Level 3 autonomous vehicle available to consumers in Europe. Called Traffic Jam Pilot, the system can negotiate traffic at speeds up to 35 mph without a driver monitoring it. However, due to a lack of federal regulations, Audi will not bring Traffic Jam Pilot to the U.S. market just yet.

Level 4 – High Automation
Only at Level 4 is a human driver or presence unnecessary. The autonomous driving system will handle all aspects of driving and is capable of completing trips without human intervention. However, a Level 4 vehicle will still operate under restrictions including speed limits and areas defined by geofencing. These vehicles are confined within a software-enabled, location-based area.



There are no Level 4 vehicles currently available for purchase. However, Waymo One, a 24-hour, self-driving vehicle service in the greater Phoenix area, operates as a real-world test. And although the vehicle does all the maneuvering, safety drivers are present during all Waymo One trips.

Level 5 – Full Autonomous Driving
This would be peak autonomy – just like in the movies. Having no driver means no steering wheel, no pedals, and no shifter. Essentially, everyone in the vehicle is a passenger. At Level 5, there would be no limitations either, geographical or otherwise. However, this level of autonomy requires a massive amount of advanced software and sensors. It also needs an infrastructure that can support vehicle-to-everything (V2X) communications.



Fiction is the closest reality of fully autonomous vehicles. From federal laws to municipal groundwork, many factors remain at play and questions unanswered regarding a utopian world of truly driverless vehicles."
 

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Is there really a reason to buy any other high-end sedan over thing? I can't really think of one. Massage seats? lol
Yes. I bought a 2021 Audi RS7 after driving a neighbor’s new Tesla Plaid. I didn’t regret the decision then and after driving the plaid a few more times, I still don’t regret it.

A few days after buying the RS7 a few friends had a car meet. A plaid was there and we all took turns driving it. The Tesla is fast - there’s no arguing it. We were all fairly impressed by its brutal acceleration. We liked some features like how it picks forward or reverse automatically or how it goes in park when you remove your seatbelts. What we universally hated was the steering wheel, the austere interior, and the styling that looks nearly identical to units rolling off the Fremont assembly line in 2012. The black “pleather” was cheap feeling. I felt the white interior of the one my neighbor had looked more like real leather. Interior smells cheap - like a VW golf. Some of the guys brought their wives and not a single one of them liked the interior styling. NO ONE felt it looked or was appointed like a 145k luxury sedan. We also all thought the brakes were horrific - like the worst EVER. After a few blasts to 150 we parked the thing. Brake rotors had heat marks and had substantial fade.

For some context every single person I’m this group of “Car guys” can afford a Tesla. all of us own exotics and have a fairly good “stable” of toys. I have had a 2015 model S p85d that I sold after 4 months for “lack of soul” and build quality (wife even made fun od the crooked stiching on the pleather dash). I subsequently bought a Benz e63s, 991 Turbo, Range Rover SVR, and now an RS7 all of which I like better than the MS Plaid.

In fact every-single one of us who drove or rode in it felt the same. I ordered one but cancelled the order along the way. I actually ordered it when it was first announced and then cancelled it when I saw the steering wheel. I ordered it again wanting to love it when Elon did his launch event a few weeks back and then cancelled it again when they called me 2 days after ordering it sayjng I could have delivery in a WEEK if I chose to forego the carbon fiber interior trim. That’s telling when a Ram TRX I ordered in april still isn’t here (the Ram has more demand).

moral of the story is that a group of “hard core car guys” who value performance (half of these guys own underground racing TT Lambos) had no interest in the plaid outside of the acceleration. This is a group of guys that would have given me shit for my new RS7 and egged me on to buy the Tesla if they lived the Tesla. Every single person went for the German V8TT with real leather. Our spouses felt the same. Given the choice id still pick an M5, E63s, GT63s, or RS7 over the plaid. Id
Also happily pay more for a slower Taycan turbo S that at least had good build quality and interior appointments.

I’m not saying that I don’t see an electrified future. I also can’t discount that maybe we are just “old school”. It’s like this. When I’m getting dressed, I’ll still pick up a mecahical Panerai, Rolex or AP over my Apple Watch almost every day even though the Apple Watch is a more accurate high performance time piece. Apple Watch goes on the wrist to count laps for a swim or for a run but then it goes back on the charger. The Tesla is the same.
 

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Yes. I bought a 2021 Audi RS7 after driving a neighbor’s new Tesla Plaid. I didn’t regret the decision then and after driving the plaid a few more times, I still don’t regret it.

A few days after buying the RS7 a few friends had a car meet. A plaid was there and we all took turns driving it. The Tesla is fast - there’s no arguing it. We were all fairly impressed by its brutal acceleration. We liked some features like how it picks forward or reverse automatically or how it goes in park when you remove your seatbelts. What we universally hated was the steering wheel, the austere interior, and the styling that looks nearly identical to units rolling off the Fremont assembly line in 2012. The black “pleather” was cheap feeling. I felt the white interior of the one my neighbor had looked more like real leather. Interior smells cheap - like a VW golf. Some of the guys brought their wives and not a single one of them liked the interior styling. NO ONE felt it looked or was appointed like a 145k luxury sedan. We also all thought the brakes were horrific - like the worst EVER. After a few blasts to 150 we parked the thing. Brake rotors had heat marks and had substantial fade.

For some context every single person I’m this group of “Car guys” can afford a Tesla. all of us own exotics and have a fairly good “stable” of toys. I have had a 2015 model S p85d that I sold after 4 months for “lack of soul” and build quality (wife even made fun od the crooked stiching on the pleather dash). I subsequently bought a Benz e63s, 991 Turbo, Range Rover SVR, and now an RS7 all of which I like better than the MS Plaid.

In fact every-single one of us who drove or rode in it felt the same. I ordered one but cancelled the order along the way. I actually ordered it when it was first announced and then cancelled it when I saw the steering wheel. I ordered it again wanting to love it when Elon did his launch event a few weeks back and then cancelled it again when they called me 2 days after ordering it sayjng I could have delivery in a WEEK if I chose to forego the carbon fiber interior trim. That’s telling when a Ram TRX I ordered in april still isn’t here (the Ram has more demand).

moral of the story is that a group of “hard core car guys” who value performance (half of these guys own underground racing TT Lambos) had no interest in the plaid outside of the acceleration. This is a group of guys that would have given me shit for my new RS7 and egged me on to buy the Tesla if they lived the Tesla. Every single person went for the German V8TT with real leather. Our spouses felt the same. Given the choice id still pick an M5, E63s, GT63s, or RS7 over the plaid. Id
Also happily pay more for a slower Taycan turbo S that at least had good build quality and interior appointments.

I’m not saying that I don’t see an electrified future. I also can’t discount that maybe we are just “old school”. It’s like this. When I’m getting dressed, I’ll still pick up a mecahical Panerai, Rolex or AP over my Apple Watch almost every day even though the Apple Watch is a more accurate high performance time piece. Apple Watch goes on the wrist to count laps for a swim or for a run but then it goes back on the charger. The Tesla is the same.
Shows how subjective this is. I couldn't disagree with you more. Old watches are man jewelry. You can wrap it anyway you want, but in the end, it's man jewelry. Pass.

I love austere minimalism. However, austere minimalism should be done well, and doesn't excuse shoddy workmanship, and as such, you have an excellent point. Further, bad brakes, no excuse for it. But in the end, performance counts. The Tesla may be weak on some areas, stronger on others. That said, for a sedan, I'm not sure hyper car performance is the top feature. Comfort/quality probably comes out on top of that, and that is also a super subjective area. So I can see fair-minded good folks coming to different conclusions on what works best for a 4door sedan, and your pick of the RS7 is a super solid pick. But I can also see those that like the plaid making a solid pick too. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

Regardless, I'm glad to see Tesla getting better and better. It forces everyone to compete more, and ultimately, everyone wins because of it.
 

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Yes. I bought a 2021 Audi RS7 after driving a neighbor’s new Tesla Plaid. I didn’t regret the decision then and after driving the plaid a few more times, I still don’t regret it.

A few days after buying the RS7 a few friends had a car meet. A plaid was there and we all took turns driving it. The Tesla is fast - there’s no arguing it. We were all fairly impressed by its brutal acceleration. We liked some features like how it picks forward or reverse automatically or how it goes in park when you remove your seatbelts. What we universally hated was the steering wheel, the austere interior, and the styling that looks nearly identical to units rolling off the Fremont assembly line in 2012. The black “pleather” was cheap feeling. I felt the white interior of the one my neighbor had looked more like real leather. Interior smells cheap - like a VW golf. Some of the guys brought their wives and not a single one of them liked the interior styling. NO ONE felt it looked or was appointed like a 145k luxury sedan. We also all thought the brakes were horrific - like the worst EVER. After a few blasts to 150 we parked the thing. Brake rotors had heat marks and had substantial fade.

For some context every single person I’m this group of “Car guys” can afford a Tesla. all of us own exotics and have a fairly good “stable” of toys. I have had a 2015 model S p85d that I sold after 4 months for “lack of soul” and build quality (wife even made fun od the crooked stiching on the pleather dash). I subsequently bought a Benz e63s, 991 Turbo, Range Rover SVR, and now an RS7 all of which I like better than the MS Plaid.

In fact every-single one of us who drove or rode in it felt the same. I ordered one but cancelled the order along the way. I actually ordered it when it was first announced and then cancelled it when I saw the steering wheel. I ordered it again wanting to love it when Elon did his launch event a few weeks back and then cancelled it again when they called me 2 days after ordering it sayjng I could have delivery in a WEEK if I chose to forego the carbon fiber interior trim. That’s telling when a Ram TRX I ordered in april still isn’t here (the Ram has more demand).

moral of the story is that a group of “hard core car guys” who value performance (half of these guys own underground racing TT Lambos) had no interest in the plaid outside of the acceleration. This is a group of guys that would have given me shit for my new RS7 and egged me on to buy the Tesla if they lived the Tesla. Every single person went for the German V8TT with real leather. Our spouses felt the same. Given the choice id still pick an M5, E63s, GT63s, or RS7 over the plaid. Id
Also happily pay more for a slower Taycan turbo S that at least had good build quality and interior appointments.

I’m not saying that I don’t see an electrified future. I also can’t discount that maybe we are just “old school”. It’s like this. When I’m getting dressed, I’ll still pick up a mecahical Panerai, Rolex or AP over my Apple Watch almost every day even though the Apple Watch is a more accurate high performance time piece. Apple Watch goes on the wrist to count laps for a swim or for a run but then it goes back on the charger. The Tesla is the same.
Well said. I would buy a dozen other cars over a Tesla and its not because of massage seats. My wife on the other hand likes the Tesla only because the infotainment is good. That is one area they have done a good job on with the big screen and she hates getting gas. Performance wise she couldn't give a crap. My experience with the 2 teslas we owned was not great. But my wife will buy another. Teslas will sell and they will sell well but to pretend its the greatest car out there is ignorance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #114 ·
213163




213162


213161


‘Weight, cost, and size are all issues that plague the battery packs used in hybrids, PHEVs, and BEVs. Despite the small size and capacity of the battery in a vehicle like the Aqua, there are gains to be had from improving any or all of those factors. And that's exactly what Toyota did here. The new nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) battery pack uses a novel design to both shrink the size and increase the output of the pack.
The new pack utilizes "bipolar electrodes;" it essentially removes some parts that separate the cells from each other, shrinking the pack from a collection of separate cells to a single conglomerate stack. That means Toyota can cram 1.4 times the amount of cells in the same space, and that the pack in total generates 1.5 times the power output. Essentially, Toyota has doubled the pack's total output—but with a cost implication that, frankly, we don't have the information to evaluate.’
 

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There is a company that has a full level 5 public service running in Arizona, and it’s also the only one approved to operate at lvl 5 in California



The 765LT is no luxury car. Why are you using that as a comparison for a luxury car?? I doubt anyone here takes anything you say with any seriousness at this point, I sure don’t. And for the record, Tesla fit and finish is horrible, one of the worst currently in the automotive business, and no 2 cars they put out are the same in how bad or where they come up short. Sometimes it’s interior, sometimes exterior, sometimes so bad that it requires being resent to manufacture for refitmemt of panels/dash, etc. so bad they should have never made it through any QA process. Not saying they don’t have their pluses, but these points you are trying to argue are definitely are not it, especially when comparing in the luxury car segment.
they are not level 5. More like level 3.3. Everyone is fighting to get level 4. Level 5 is not anywhere but hype clickbait
 

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they are not level 5. More like level 3.3. Everyone is fighting to get level 4. Level 5 is not anywhere but hype clickbait
I beg to differ with you. Full service with no safety driver, they already hit lvl 4 a while ago, and lvl 5 is things like somehow got stuck on a railroad track, and a train is coming, or found itself on a dirt road during a flash flood, things outside of the normal driving conditions that even most humans aren't expected to cope with. There is a reason why in CA they are the only ones allowed to operate without a safety driver as well, and that was given a couple years ago. Tesla is a long ways from getting that certification still. Actually, where Tesla is now is about where Google X, now Waymo, was in 2012. They still have a long ways to go, but I can say that Tesla is definitely moving quickly in that regards This is one area that I know better than most, and also know most of the major players on a personal level.
 
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