[Laurent T]

Gallardo62 talked a while ago about the test and the magazine is out today. . I haven't read everything yet, but the conclusion is... nobody wins !
Better feeling for the Ferrari, but the McLaren is easier to drive, in particular on the wet. Lap time has been done on wet circuit, the result is : McLaren 1’59’’39 / Ferrari 1’59’’60. Lack of grip for the Ferrari, too much driver's assistance in the McLaren according to the test driver, who also says that the suspensions in the McLaren might be a little too soft for dry conditions compared to the Ferrari.
I'll post more later on my blog about the test, but for sure not today and maybe not before a week a least (but I can try to answer questions).
Short summary in French here.

 

[6th element]

Thanks for the translation. Anything in the mag about the dyno tests Gallardo was talking about?

 

[jpalmito]

just read the mag.
458 italia : 568 ps.
mp4-12c : 596 ps.

 

[Laurent T]

just read the mag.
458 italia : 568 ps.
mp4-12c : 596 ps.

Magazine also a little surprised by the very good acceleration times of the 458, 9.2 sec to 200kph, more than one sec faster than manufacturer claims according to the mag.

 

[gallardo62]

Magazine also a little surprised by the very good acceleration times of the 458, 9.2 sec to 200kph, more than one sec faster than manufacturer claims according to the mag.

1)
the "hp" of a stock 458 (static time without forced inducted air, read the datasheet of 2009 to understand) is 560hp

this one was 568 bhp with a good torque value of 55mkg with a magical curve (50 mkg at 5500 rpm) 54mkg for official specs

for example customer car dynoed :
http://www.dragtimes.com/blog/ferrari-458-italia-on-the-dyno

550 hp...

2) weight
a very light 458

sport auto 2010 (germany) : 1540 kg
asphalte.ch (switzerland customer car) : 1598 (with light wheels but with electric seat)
sport auto (france ) : 1512 kg...

3) performance
sport auto germany 2010 : 0-100 : 3.5 0-200 : 10.6
sport auto france 2011 : 3.3 and 9.2 !!!!!!
and the italian stop 5 m before the 458 tested a year early by our german friends...
1000m 19.6 458 et 19.7 for the mp4....

4) translation for the test report of Christophe Tinseau (le mans winner)
The direction of the Ferrari car is very sharp. In the fast bends, if you turn a little too much, the back embarks. With a track slippery as today I would have preferred a less direct steering.
It is much warmer to take than the mp4 in the rain. She forgives of advantage. For me the F car has much less road holding. (grip)

Le mag didn't mention anything about the well prepared car apart :

"the italian v8, in great health for our event"

"the mp4 go to fuel a the station near the circuit, the ferrari prefer the " breuvage maison " of the team"

"this test car (the 458) "pete la forme" and seems to be a race car, with an engine explosive as never and a very precise behavior."



hopeless...

 

[AugustWest]

'bout what you'd expect from a 458 Scud.

 

[AugustWest]

I mean - really? Bringing your own fuel?

 

[gallardo62]

I mean - really? Bringing your own fuel?

yes they did
(f man)

 

[gallardo62]

to remember the story

http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/mclaren-mp4-12c-p11/608-another-controversed-test-458-inside.html

 

[repie]

1)
the "hp" of a stock 458 (static time without forced inducted air, read the datasheet of 2009 to understand) is 560hp

this one was 568 bhp with a good torque value of 55mkg with a magical curve (50 mkg at 5500 rpm) 54mkg for official specs

for example customer car dynoed :
http://www.dragtimes.com/blog/ferrari-458-italia-on-the-dyno

550 hp...

2) weight
a very light 458

sport auto 2010 (germany) : 1540 kg
asphalte.ch (switzerland customer car) : 1598 (with light wheels but with electric seat)
sport auto (france ) : 1512 kg...

3) performance
sport auto germany 2010 : 0-100 : 3.5 0-200 : 10.6
sport auto france 2011 : 3.3 and 9.2 !!!!!!
and the italian stop 5 m before the 458 tested a year early by our german friends...
1000m 19.6 458 et 19.7 for the mp4....

4) translation for the test report of Christophe Tinseau (le mans winner)
The direction of the Ferrari car is very sharp. In the fast bends, if you turn a little too much, the back embarks. With a track slippery as today I would have preferred a less direct steering.
It is much warmer to take than the mp4 in the rain. She forgives of advantage. For me the F car has much less road holding. (grip)

Le mag didn't mention anything about the well prepared car apart :

"the italian v8, in great health for our event"

"the mp4 go to fuel a the station near the circuit, the ferrari prefer the " breuvage maison " of the team"

"this test car (the 458) "pete la forme" and seems to be a race car, with an engine explosive as never and a very precise behavior."

hopeless...

hello,
my (french) contribution

the power of the ferrari is given at 570hp and was measured at 568. ferrari provided the car with a special fuel (probably higher octane) that made the car explosive and michelin tyres that Tinseau (the test drivers) suspect are less grippy than the Pzero of the Mac in the wet.
ok fair enough, those italians are cunning.

but let's not forget as well that the mclaren was not a random customer car but the orange one from the factory (RX60GTU registration plate that we saw since the beginning of the development...and that was used to do the lap times on the top gear track), that the car put out only 553 hp, so mclaren had to retest it, with the max power obtained at 7700rpm instead of 7000

I just think those comparaisons are useless. too many parameters and variables.
especially as everyone gives press car (even jaguar in the 60's gave an E-type with a race engine to prove the top speed!). the difference is that ferrari is an iconic car brand, that attract all sort of attention so they are quickly accused as soon as something is not right.

as for myself, I have been reading for quite some time this forum. I am quite impressed to be honest by the achievements of mclaren, but I am not a great fan of the car, especially its styling. too naive and generic with elements clearly taken from...ferrari and porsche (the moustaches in the nose, the rear testarossa grill, the carreraGT interior). the weirdest bit being the mirrors : they look like giraffe tongue holding a pebble.

but it is an impressively serious machine. I would be curious to know how all this is funded and makes money. a brand new carbone chassis, engine, gearbox, switchgear, equipement, facility, dealer network with only 4000 car a year, it is a miracle...

 

[gallardo62]

yes i drove the rx60 gtu at dunsfold, that car work very hard...
(the same car for sport auto de, nordschleife)

but mines too, we 'll se at the next track day

but be serious !

sport auto de 2010 : 0-200 10.6sec
sport auto fr 2011 : 0-200 9.2 sec

come on ???

they are both press cars !!!!
how it can be possible when you know that a full team is there to check the car every 5 minutes !!

 

[Moncho]

I find all these comparisons between the 458 and 12c amusing. For 99.999% of us "regular" guys a .1 sec difference to 60mph or around a track makes no difference. It's all about how the car makes you feel, brand identity and personal taste. I personally love the look of the 12c (specially those "giraffe tongues with pebbles"), and that's why I've purchased one. (plus I'd rather never have to deal with a Ferrari dealership again).
How fast a professional driver can go around a track in one vs. the other is nothing but a pissing contest. "My car is faster than your car", very insecure if you ask me.
If you prefer the 458, great. Get one! It's a great car. But don't buy it, or not, for a .1 sec difference.
BTW... I get my 12c next week!!!!

 

[Marin 12C]

but it is an impressively serious machine. I would be curious to know how all this is funded and makes money. a brand new carbone chassis, engine, gearbox, switchgear, equipement, facility, dealer network with only 4000 car a year, it is a miracle...

Funded by a massive initial development budget from the shareholders of McLaren Group, followed by a serious fundraising by McLaren Automotive from additional, new shareholders.

No miracle, just a lot of work by some very focused and committed people.

 

[6th element]

Funded by a massive initial development budget from the shareholders of McLaren Group, followed by a serious fundraising by McLaren Automotive from additional, new shareholders.

No miracle, just a lot of work by some very focused and committed people.

And don't forget a few mute giraffes who unselfishly gave their tongues for the cause...

 

[6th element]

I find all these comparisons between the 458 and 12c amusing. For 99.999% of us "regular" guys a .1 sec difference to 60mph or around a track makes no difference. It's all about how the car makes you feel, brand identity and personal taste. I personally love the look of the 12c (specially those "giraffe tongues with pebbles"), and that's why I've purchased one. (plus .I'd rather never have to deal with a Ferrari dealership again).
How fast a professional driver can go around a track in one vs. the other is nothing but a pissing contest. "My car is faster than your car", very insecure if you ask me.
If you prefer the 458, great. Get one! It's a great car. But don't buy it, or not, for a .1 sec difference.
BTW... I get my 12c next week!!!!

Agree almost 100% Moncho, but for me it is less about the distance reachable by the pee and more the concern of whether or not we can trust these manufacturers. The urge must be overwhelming for McLaren right now, when they see Ferrari meddling, especially given the history of the two companies in competitive motorsport.

As you say, it has all become tedious. But, I admit to having always loved a good car mag review article, since about the age of 10. In that respect, the joke's on me, I guess. Perhaps, even now, I'm idealistic, such that I feel like I deserve what is advertised on the box.

Congrats on your upcoming delivery. I'm 3 days in and so far over the moon!

 

[gallardo62]

I am especially disappointed that he was not able to make one laptime on the dry...

i use to do some trackdays at le mans, and a comparaison with a professional driver is always interesting

 

[Actarus]

2) weight
a very light 458

sport auto 2010 (germany) : 1540 kg
asphalte.ch (switzerland customer car) : 1598 (with light wheels but with electric seat)
sport auto (france ) : 1512 kg...

3) performance
sport auto germany 2010 : 0-100 : 3.5 0-200 : 10.6
sport auto france 2011 : 3.3 and 9.2 !!!!!!
and the italian stop 5 m before the 458 tested a year early by our german friends...
1000m 19.6 458 et 19.7 for the mp4....

4) translation for the test report of Christophe Tinseau (le mans winner)
The direction of the Ferrari car is very sharp. In the fast bends, if you turn a little too much, the back embarks. With a track slippery as today I would have preferred a less direct steering.
It is much warmer to take than the mp4 in the rain. She forgives of advantage. For me the F car has much less road holding. (grip)

Le mag didn't mention anything about the well prepared car apart :

"the italian v8, in great health for our event"

"the mp4 go to fuel a the station near the circuit, the ferrari prefer the " breuvage maison " of the team"

"this test car (the 458) "pete la forme" and seems to be a race car, with an engine explosive as never and a very precise behavior."



hopeless...

2) Weight
That 458 is a MY 2011 equipped with new full carbon package available from end 2010 (as engine bulheads and intake manifolds), new lighter titanium sport exhaust etc. etc. saving about few tenths kilos in comparison with MY09 in the lightest configuration possible (tested by SA Germany and weighted with fuel tank filled).
Autobuld tested the same MY2011 plate measuring 1505 Kg but it depends how many fuel liters the car had.
3) Sport auto Germany does acceleration test with passenger so you are comparing oranges with apples. More, test done by different magazine are not comparable. They use different method to measure perfomance and different proving ground. Italian 'Automobilismo' usually obtains best perfomance thank the 'grippy' proving ground of Balocco where they test the car.
Motorsport magazine FR tested the 458 with same italian plate. 1Km in 20,3 sec

Salut

 

[scottishxj220]

2) Weight, etc.

Interesting - so it was almost like a 458 Mk2?

I find all these comparisons between the 458 and 12c amusing. For 99.999% of us "regular" guys a .1 sec difference to 60mph or around a track makes no difference. It's all about how the car makes you feel, brand identity and personal taste. I personally love the look of the 12c (specially those "giraffe tongues with pebbles"), and that's why I've purchased one. (plus I'd rather never have to deal with a Ferrari dealership again).
How fast a professional driver can go around a track in one vs. the other is nothing but a pissing contest. "My car is faster than your car", very insecure if you ask me.
If you prefer the 458, great. Get one! It's a great car. But don't buy it, or not, for a .1 sec difference.
BTW... I get my 12c next week!!!!

I totally agree - I'm not in the buying position and my mate pointed out that magazine reviews mean very little all in all. Buy with your heart, not your brain. There is no point having a car just because it is .2 of a second faster and not because of how it makes you feel. For me that means McLaren all the way

 

[gallardo62]

sport auto germany test their car with a passenger ?

great, but RX60GTU did the same time in sport aufo france ! (0.1sec)
(same car)

if the mp4 is able (again the same car) to achieve the same results (with a passenger)

why the F is so faster ?

anyway, I know the underground of this test, it's not my car is faster than yours but the "spirit" of the manufacturer i don't like.

let's benchmark a customer's 458 !!!

 

[repie]

let's benchmark a customer's 458 !!!

against a customer MP4!!! instead of THE factory car.