Road & Track comparison test

Laurent T said:

Just published today. 3rd place (and last) for the MP4 vs the ZR1 and the 458. Best lap time by far for the 458. Looks like temperature has been an issue for the engine as far as I understand the article (haven't read it fully, but that's what I have seen).
Link for article here.

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Yes, the 12C ran into its thermal protection and torqued down during the timed lap. Unfortunate.

As always, there is a story behind this "comparison test" and the "provenance" of the cars involved. But, I am tired of doing the legwork for you ingrates. If you care about the truth, make your own calls.

Good article, thank you Laurent T.
All three manufacturers should be proud.
IMO the ZR1 is overpowered for it's light tail.
Ferrari is the most fun clearly, if you like going sideways and playing Schumacher. I find 458 brakes, steering, and headlights all inferior to Porsche.
On a cool day, the turbos work better and cup ties won't stick...so many variables. None of these are ideal amateur track cars. Too pretty, too expensive, too squirrely.

As always, Italia weighs less, and is significantly faster than before. A truly amazing car. It only gets better with age. This shit is truly hilarious.

I bid $350k on that Italia. The silver one! What? It's gone back to Italy? Guess I'll order a 3600# version.
Funny but why aren't we screeching about the use of cup tires by the ZR1?
If Ferrari used them there would be a riot.

ergoproxy said:

I bid $350k on that Italia. The silver one! What? It's gone back to Italy? Guess I'll order a 3600# version.
Funny but why aren't we screeching about the use of cup tires by the ZR1?
If Ferrari used them there would be a riot.

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I don't care what tires anybody uses, as long as they are off the shelf tires I can buy, too. I can buy MPSC tires in Corvette sizes from Tire Rack.

I don't understand all this cr*p again about Ferrari cheating - leave it!

The McLaren came third because:
A.) it didn't have Carbon brakes in the performance part of the test and
B.) because it did 'very' badly in the subjective test!
It lost due to poor scores in 'Excitement', 'Gearbox', 'Steering', 'Handling' and 'Brakes'.

Why don't McLaren fit carbon brakes to test cars, is there a problem?

The McLaren even scored higher on looks than the 458!

Hopefully McLaren are looking to improve scores in these key areas!

Russell996 said:

I don't understand all this cr*p again about Ferrari cheating - leave it!

The McLaren came third because:
A.) it didn't have Carbon brakes in the performance part of the test and
B.) because it did 'very' badly in the subjective test!
It lost due to poor scores in 'Excitement', 'Gearbox', 'Steering', 'Handling' and 'Brakes'.

Why don't McLaren fit carbon brakes to test cars, is there a problem?

The McLaren even scored higher on looks than the 458!

Hopefully McLaren are looking to improve scores in these key areas!

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Handling and brakes are understandable. McLaren braking results tend to be weak in all tests with few exceptions. However, the trap speed of Italia of 132.7 mph is simply ridiculous.

Russell996 said:

I don't understand all this cr*p again about Ferrari cheating - leave it!

The McLaren came third because:
A.) it didn't have Carbon brakes in the performance part of the test and
B.) because it did 'very' badly in the subjective test!
It lost due to poor scores in 'Excitement', 'Gearbox', 'Steering', 'Handling' and 'Brakes'.

Why don't McLaren fit carbon brakes to test cars, is there a problem?

The McLaren even scored higher on looks than the 458!

Hopefully McLaren are looking to improve scores in these key areas!

Click to expand...

No need to get upset, Russell. I'm long past caring who "won" or who "lost". All I'm saying is that, as usual, there is information that is not being presented. If you care, it's easy enough to find out. If you don't care, then don't. That's all.

This test doesn't bother me either, I love all 3 cars here. I didn't get a 458 as a replacement for my 430, but am thinking of doing so now. I will try and always keep the McLaren though, as I still think it is the best engineered car of all. Its funny my 10 year old daugher loves my 430 and the only car she likes better is the McLaren. Kids.

6th element said:

No need to get upset, Russell. I'm long past caring who "won" or who "lost". All I'm saying is that, as usual, there is information that is not being presented. If you care, it's easy enough to find out. If you don't care, then don't. That's all.

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But it is worth being upset. I don't care about what isn't being said, I do care about what is being said. It does seem highly significant that the standard brakes are lacking when compared to other cars and inexplicable why McLaren doesn't send a car with Carbon brakes, surely they know the tests the car will face - have any of the test cars McLaren has supplied ever had carbon brakes?
The McLaren would of beaten the Ferrari in the performance section if it had been supplied with Carbon brakes, no need to beat the "ringer" drum, just fit carbon brakes.

The subjective test scores are the problem!

If there is some 'cheating' going on, why don't these publications call the manufacturers out on it? I understand that the magazine may be threatened with never being allowed to test said manufacturers cars' again, but I think doing that would be an admission of guilt.

Krzys said:

However, the trap speed of Italia of 132.7 mph is simply ridiculous.

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Boh ... I don't why the Italia is always bashed.
With 1 foot rollout procedure I think it is possible.

A customer 458 doing 11,2s @132,2 mph without LC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNuw4Eq1msk

The 997 Turbo S (Ok with AWD system) with less hp is capable to exit at 1/4 miles at @130mph ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ8EzG8StKE

Actarus

6th element said:

I don't care what tires anybody uses, as long as they are off the shelf tires I can buy, too. I can buy MPSC tires in Corvette sizes from Tire Rack.

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Point taken. If there was any comment on the F and McL tires I missed it. I assume stock until proven otherwise. I can't tell from the pics.

Ferrari's secrecy and arrogance are off putting, more than its actions which are only subjects of speculation.

Some curb weights would have been nice, but I bet it was verboten.

Russell996 said:

I don't understand all this cr*p again about Ferrari cheating - leave it!

The McLaren came third because:
A.) it didn't have Carbon brakes in the performance part of the test and
B.) because it did 'very' badly in the subjective test!
It lost due to poor scores in 'Excitement', 'Gearbox', 'Steering', 'Handling' and 'Brakes'.

Why don't McLaren fit carbon brakes to test cars, is there a problem?

The McLaren even scored higher on looks than the 458!

Hopefully McLaren are looking to improve scores in these key areas!

Click to expand...

I told you guys the 2012 458 has been improved. The Michelin tires make a big difference. Those Pirelli tires are crap. I can't even hook up anywhere with full throttle in first gear with my Scud with Corsa's. Can't wait to see what my 16M is like with the Pilot SS I bought, getting them installed on Friday.

Russell, the carbon brakes make no difference to the MP4 regarding stopping power, and they are actually lighter than the cc brakes.

I have already mentioned in my test drive experience what needs to be changed:

Gearbox and shift feel
Engine noise / excitement
Interior fit finish / stitching options on seats

Looks like the testers saw the same that I saw.

It would be nice to see a car to car comparison with similar equipment in terms of tires, brakes, etc from an independent source over a number of days with more than one car from each brand. I other words, 2 cars off the lots in a neutral setting. R&T tested a AM Vantage 4.7L as faster than the DBS and V12. Supposedly, the car broke and they couldn't reproduce the results. It was just recently that the 12C finished ahead of the 458 and just behind the Aventador in a 1/4 mile. What was the difference? I have a feeling that if McLaren wanted to, they could set a car up with cup tires and game day tuning that would be crazy. This business of style and soul scores is a joke too. If that really mattered, my Aston would finish in the top of all of theses "challenges".

6th element said:

Yes, the 12C ran into its thermal protection and torqued down during the timed lap. Unfortunate.

As always, there is a story behind this "comparison test" and the "provenance" of the cars involved. But, I am tired of doing the legwork for you ingrates. If you care about the truth, make your own calls.

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NICE.......I'm sure it was rigged for italia to prevail

Am I the only one who's shocked it took widowmaker911 a full 7 hours to chime in here!?

With a 340k msrp I am sure the Italia had every carbon option available, but the exterior options can't save more than 25lbs?

Actarus said:

Boh ... I don't why the Italia is always bashed.
With 1 foot rollout procedure I think it is possible.

A customer 458 doing 11,2s @132,2 mph without LC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNuw4Eq1msk

The 997 Turbo S (Ok with AWD system) with less hp is capable to exit at 1/4 miles at @130mph ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ8EzG8StKE

Actarus

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Italia is a great car. It is just made by a company of compulsive cheats. A slightly unfortunate coincidence.

Sure, it's possible. However, since reputable journalists have called out Ferrari as a consistent fraud, we can safely assume that in any competitive comparison, until proven otherwise, Ferrari will resort to cheating. Ferrari could have addressed the allegation head on. They did not. Ergo, cheats unless proven otherwise.