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Discussion Starter #1
All of a sudden there seems to be alot of cars for sale in the UK, and the prices appear to be in many cases below list. Waiting lists dont seem to be anymore than several months long. So whats really happening?
 

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Initial demand from enthusiasts and completists has gone, the economy is so so, so cars now have to be 'sold'. Additionally the residuals will have to weaken to appeal over the 5 or 6 month wait.

I'm just guessing but.....they need to launch in China, Russia and Tristan De Cuna to soak up production and lengthen UK lead time
 

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In france the cheapest car is 219k€ (so minima the price list or a little over)

In paris they sold ony 3cars since december 2011 (15 cars delivered) But the dealer in Paris is not a reference...

i spoke to mclaren telling me, they think to arrive with the spyder at 75 percent for the top less one ... (distribution)
it wll be another story for the residual...


still high there
http://www.autoscout24.fr/ListGN.aspx?atype=C&mmvmk0=51519&mmvco=1&make=51519&pricefrom=1000&cy=D,F,I&zipc=F&ustate=N,U
 

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Being a car Manufacturer trying to create a valued brand comes with responsibilities that go far beyond simply selling new cars and relying on the Market to do the rest.

I do not believe that there is an adequate plan for previously owned cars and there insufficient control or Influence with dealers once the car is sold except for maintenance which is excellent.

TheItalians manage and massage used prices by controlling their dealers! This may seem unreasonable but it works. Residuals on their V8 range are amazing. 2 year old cars are being advertised at list price and 2011 at list plus. This is due to a number of reasons.Dealers are not permitted to advertise used cars until the model has been on UK sale for a year and I think with California it was increased to two as residuals at that time were weak. Further they may only advertise 2 cars even if they have 8 in stock. New stock release is rationed. This controls availability,creates the appearance of shorter supply pleases owners and strengthens the brand where a clear and predictable residuals can be expected. Customers can purchase without fear and in consequence replace their new cars regularly!

In our case we have one Franchise dealer that has advertised too many cars at low price for weeks. This and the very short lead times being quoted screws the market. Woking need to react now or the damage to the brand in the UK will make it second division and compete with Bentley and Aston in depreciation levels.

Just my opinion and possibly wide of the mark?
 

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Being a car Manufacturer trying to create a valued brand comes with responsibilities that go far beyond simply selling new cars and relying on the Market to do the rest.

I do not believe that there is an adequate plan for previously owned cars and there insufficient control or Influence with dealers once the car is sold except for maintenance which is excellent.

TheItalians manage and massage used prices by controlling their dealers! This may seem unreasonable but it works. Residuals on their V8 range are amazing. 2 year old cars are being advertised at list price and 2011 at list plus. This is due to a number of reasons.Dealers are not permitted to advertise used cars until the model has been on UK sale for a year and I think with California it was increased to two as residuals at that time were weak. Further they may only advertise 2 cars even if they have 8 in stock. New stock release is rationed. This controls availability,creates the appearance of shorter supply pleases owners and strengthens the brand where a clear and predictable residuals can be expected. Customers can purchase without fear and in consequence replace their new cars regularly!

In our case we have one Franchise dealer that has advertised too many cars at low price for weeks. This and the very short lead times being quoted screws the market. Woking need to react now or the damage to the brand in the UK will make it second division and compete with Bentley and Aston in depreciation levels.

Just my opinion and possibly wide of the mark?
Interesting. Didn't realise Fezza had control of the used market. Certainly residuals support the new car selling price. Could be we will be in for a very soft residual if demand softens as the economy splutters forwards.
 

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Being a car Manufacturer trying to create a valued brand comes with responsibilities that go far beyond simply selling new cars and relying on the Market to do the rest.

I do not believe that there is an adequate plan for previously owned cars and there insufficient control or Influence with dealers once the car is sold except for maintenance which is excellent.

TheItalians manage and massage used prices by controlling their dealers! This may seem unreasonable but it works. Residuals on their V8 range are amazing. 2 year old cars are being advertised at list price and 2011 at list plus. This is due to a number of reasons.Dealers are not permitted to advertise used cars until the model has been on UK sale for a year and I think with California it was increased to two as residuals at that time were weak. Further they may only advertise 2 cars even if they have 8 in stock. New stock release is rationed. This controls availability,creates the appearance of shorter supply pleases owners and strengthens the brand where a clear and predictable residuals can be expected. Customers can purchase without fear and in consequence replace their new cars regularly!

In our case we have one Franchise dealer that has advertised too many cars at low price for weeks. This and the very short lead times being quoted screws the market. Woking need to react now or the damage to the brand in the UK will make it second division and compete with Bentley and Aston in depreciation levels.

Just my opinion and possibly wide of the mark?
Interesting insight, bruce. I don't know what is the right answer, but I think those ideas need some thinking through in the context of launching a new brand, vs an established one. I know that over here prospective Ferrari customers are often told NO, there are no cars available or that the lead time is 12 months for example, only to get a call a few weeks later saying a car has just magically been made available in their exact spec or the lead time for same is now drastically shorter. Overall, it is hard to say whether the advantage to current owners is outweighed by prospects being turned off. Again, I bring this up because McLaren is a new brand and is trying to establish their dealings as honest and fair. Ferrari has the inherent advantage of the established brand, which they can leverage to control both the dealer and the customer. There are Ferrari customers that absolutely loathe the company, but yet continue to buy every car because it is Ferrari. It will take McLaren many years to develop a brand so powerful and I would argue that will be accomplished by building the best cars and winning races, not controlling dealers and customers. Seems to me the issue, if there is one, at the moment is simply supply vs. demand in the local UK market. It has been said on this board that McLaren has already acknowledged that and is capping UK supply. Not sure of the accuracy of that statement, perhaps andy can chime in again. If so, I suspect that might be the most effective way to deal with it. Not saying you are wrong, I'm just posing more questions than answers, I guess! :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The simple solution to this is for the waiting list to be at least 12 months. Those of us who already have our cars have been waiting for over 2 years and we are the ones who effectively under wrote this model. As Bruce has said, Ferrari would never have allowed the 458 to be selling for less than list just 6 months after the first deliveries. If the demand for the 12c has fizzled out, the supply should be shifted away from the UK and waiting lists stretched in order to help residuals and hence the brand. Otherwise the Spyder will suffer especially as it will be an extra 25k over the coupe.
 

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Interesting insight, bruce. I don't know what is the right answer, but I think those ideas need some thinking through in the context of launching a new brand, vs an established one. I know that over here prospective Ferrari customers are often told NO, there are no cars available or that the lead time is 12 months for example, only to get a call a few weeks later saying a car has just magically been made available in their exact spec or the lead time for same is now drastically shorter. Overall, it is hard to say whether the advantage to current owners is outweighed by prospects being turned off. Again, I bring this up because McLaren is a new brand and is trying to establish their dealings as honest and fair. Ferrari has the inherent advantage of the established brand, which they can leverage to control both the dealer and the customer. There are Ferrari customers that absolutely loathe the company, but yet continue to buy every car because it is Ferrari. It will take McLaren many years to develop a brand so powerful and I would argue that will be accomplished by building the best cars and winning races, not controlling dealers and customers. Seems to me the issue, if there is one, at the moment is simply supply vs. demand in the local UK market. It has been said on this board that McLaren has already acknowledged that and is capping UK supply. Not sure of the accuracy of that statement, perhaps andy can chime in again. If so, I suspect that might be the most effective way to deal with it. Not saying you are wrong, I'm just posing more questions than answers, I guess! :eek:
I understand your point of view 6th but clients in the UK wont comeback if they loose their shirts. They must cap UK supply yesterday ! Review their dealer strategy,I have never heard of a Ferrari where delivery came forward quite the reverse in fact (again UK experience only). McLarens integrity is clear and plain to see and very very welcome but doing as you say is not enough.
As you say Ferrari are an established brand where they have forgotten more about brand management etc than most of the market has learnt and it isnt all pretty! Mclaren can look at the Italian model and take the good and leave the bad.
At the moment in the UK action is required that will stop any stigma in this area.
Clearly things are not being helped where an economy is tanking regardless of Daves ill informed comments:D Look on UK Pistonheads classified and also you can even see pics of Falbs wonderful car in the Ferrari Lambo section in a 30 odd page rendition about te 12c

I think we Brits are currently at the sharp end and it hurts. I am sure Woking will resolve the problem though. Enough said I am signing off on the subject
 

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Wonder if those prices are so bad given it is early days and early cars. Wouldn't want it to soften but the economy is probably a big issue. 18 cars on Piston Heads.
 

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It is important for the brand that residuals are decent and that there is a reasonable wait for a new car. In my mind if new cars are available in a small number of months it is inevitable that all except delivery mileage used cars will be at a 20k+ discount. If supply is curtailed and a minimum 9month waiting list reestablished then residuals will strengthen. I love my car, prefer it to previous ferraris and have no intention of selling it soon BUT it is worrying. A lot of cars do seem to be coming onto the market - would be interesting to know the motivation behind the sellers. Was that always the plan or are they disappointed in the car or worried about (self-fulfilling) weak initial residuals?
 

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There have been 200 plus cars delivered into the UK so say 20 cars for sale seems a lot but some are low mileage with a couple at 5000 plus. 10% churn seems excessive at this juncture.
 

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Total Nightmare UK one reduced on Pistonheads to £173k and dealers wont buy them :mad:
Then that indicates that there is no demand and if there is no demand...........Adam Smith figured it out in 1776.

Bad news.
 

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Then that indicates that there is no demand and if there is no demand...........Adam Smith figured it out in 1776.

Bad news.
Might it be a good idea for this thread to be on main forum so that the dealers can see the owners concern? If owners drop a lot of cash, many will be reluctant to support future product and that won't be good for the factory or the dealer..........

Don't forget the car @ £173k is a private sale that is only slightly below list given the spec, probably didnt pay for Doris and would need to be priced at that level to attract purchasers away from a dealer stocks to the extent they exist.

It is more of a concern if the dealers won't by anything, Bruce, do you have any evidence of this ?:confused:
 

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Think this discussion should remain in the owners forum - nothing stopping us all stressing to our dealers and McLaren contacts the importance of residuals in retaining customers and the need for McLaren to have a strategy on this front however.
 

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Think this discussion should remain in the owners forum - nothing stopping us all stressing to our dealers and McLaren contacts the importance of residuals in retaining customers and the need for McLaren to have a strategy on this front however.
Agreed
 

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Think this discussion should remain in the owners forum - nothing stopping us all stressing to our dealers and McLaren contacts the importance of residuals in retaining customers and the need for McLaren to have a strategy on this front however.
Point well made

Thanks

Chrisb
 

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+1 most important for the future health of the company,they just might need to l0ose a little at the moment its too early days to let people loose faith.
 
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