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The 'Lanzante' GTR tubs were already counted in the 'official' list before the 6 were passed to Lanzante - there weren't any extras made for the LM's.

The road going GTR's were made from existing track-GTR's

The P1 GT's and longtail GTR's are being made from existing chassis

Greg, that is patently complete BS. What official list? the one with 25-30 cars that i was sold the car on or? the fact is that Mclaren made another 6 tubs, and they were VERY CLEARLY 6 extra tubs for Lanzante.
It is a free country, so Lanzante can do whatever they want when it comes to converting existing cars, but the LM cars were never sold as regular GTRs, they were made with only one purpose, to be made into LM's.
 

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photo in link
……………….

AUTOCAR
Lanzante McLaren P1 GT 'Longtail' to be revealed at Goodwood
British engineering firm will show its version of the hybrid hypercar next week

by Sam Sheehan
3 July 2018
Follow @autoSamSheehan

A McLaren P1 GT that has been developed by renowned engineering firm Lanzante will be revealed at the Goodwood Festival of Speed next week.
Previewed in a single image, the hybrid hypercar is inspired by the iconic F1 GT Longtail of 1997 that was the homologated road-going version of the GTR endurance racer.
Lanzante’s newest creation, the latest in a long line of uprated and race-prepared McLarens, gains an all-new aerodynamic package that includes a fixed rear wing mounted on a lengthened tail.

It’s possible that this boost in downforce will be matched by enhanced powertrain performance. Lanzante’s last enhanced P1, the P1 LM*(above), retained the 986bhp-producing turbocharged 3.8-litre V8 and electric powertrain of the GTR. A more extreme model could edge this output towards 1000bhp.
Lanzante could also reduce the weight of the P1 using similar measures employed on its P1 LM. That car was 60kg lighter than the P1 GTR, using exhaust headers and catalytic convertor pipes made from Inconel to save 4.5kg, while race parts such as the air jack system were removed.
More details of Lanzante's P1 GT, which was commissioned by a Middle Eastern customer, will be announced at its reveal.*
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-goodwood-festival-speed/lanzante-mclaren-p1-gt-longtail-be-revealed-goodwood
 

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Greg, that is patently complete BS. What official list? the one with 25-30 cars that i was sold the car on or? the fact is that Mclaren made another 6 tubs, and they were VERY CLEARLY 6 extra tubs for Lanzante.
It is a free country, so Lanzante can do whatever they want when it comes to converting existing cars, but the LM cars were never sold as regular GTRs, they were made with only one purpose, to be made into LM's.
Alex, I agree that the LM's weren't sold by Mclaren as regular GTR's as they were delivered with a variety of changes, mostly mechanical with some omissions from what were on the 'regular' GTR's. However XP1 LM was originally built as a GTR out of the Mclaren P1 GTR's as it was chassis #049, and more chassis were built after that as regular GTR's.

The list of up-to-30 cars that you were sold on the car doubled and more, and the "GTR's" that became LM's were part of the extra that has irked you and some other early P1GTR owners.

If I were to buy with funds readily available to me a limited edition car then find out its not as limited as I was first led to believe, I'd be pretty pissed too. Multiply that by the fact 'my' limited edition car wouldn't be worth over £1.5m+, I don't want to imagine the level of pissed off I'd be in your, and others, shoes.
 

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Such as an LMP2 car.

If you want to be fast on a track, but a race car. They are cheap, reliable, and extremely fast lap after lap. Why spend $2M to be kinda fast on a track (for who knows how many laps) and super compromised on a road?

Would love to see the LM drive on my local roads without rattling your fillings loose and damaging the car itself.
 

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Such as an LMP2 car.

If you want to be fast on a track, but a race car. They are cheap, reliable, and extremely fast lap after lap. Why spend $2M to be kinda fast on a track (for who knows how many laps) and super compromised on a road?

Would love to see the LM drive on my local roads without rattling your fillings loose and damaging the car itself.
That car won't be driven on NY city potholes. It is still fine for the majority of roads in the region the owner is driving. Just because it wouldn't work for you doesn't mean it won't work elsewhere in the world. This looks a blast to drive on the road
 

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These LM cars are lame and overpriced. They'll probably get smoked on a track by cars a fraction of the price.
Lame? yes. overpriced? how do you price a piece of art? most journalists seem to think rich guys are stupid, most of them did not get rich by being stupid. ïf you want to race, buy a race car, blah blah blah", you are missing the point. this is a collectors car, that might or might not be a good investment.

And to give you one specific example. the ONLY guaranteed way of getting an allocation for the LaFerrari a few years ago was to own an XX car. You could have bought a lame and overpriced 599XX for 1.3mn, received your Laferrari, probably a specialeA, tdf and maybe even a LaF aperta etc. how much money have you made on those cars, while still having a 599XX that is worth a pretty penny.

or you could have gone out racing for that 1.3mn and if you are lucky you would have some memories and some 5 quid trophies...

guaranteed allocation of the Valkyrie? buy a Vulcan..
 

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Lame? yes. overpriced? how do you price a piece of art? most journalists seem to think rich guys are stupid, most of them did not get rich by being stupid. ïf you want to race, buy a race car, blah blah blah", you are missing the point. this is a collectors car, that might or might not be a good investment.

And to give you one specific example. the ONLY guaranteed way of getting an allocation for the LaFerrari a few years ago was to own an XX car. You could have bought a lame and overpriced 599XX for 1.3mn, received your Laferrari, probably a specialeA, tdf and maybe even a LaF aperta etc. how much money have you made on those cars, while still having a 599XX that is worth a pretty penny.

or you could have gone out racing for that 1.3mn and if you are lucky you would have some memories and some 5 quid trophies...

guaranteed allocation of the Valkyrie? buy a Vulcan..
Yeah, but an LM isn't a McLaren, it's a glorified tuner's car. I don't think a P1 LM from Lazante is a collectors car.

Your example is also Ferrari. So far being in McLaren's good graces isn't worth much and might actually be an expense overall. If I wanted to get on McLaren's good side, I wouldn't be buying dumb tuner cars, I'd be saving up and trying to find the cheapest F1. It also doesn't seem terribly hard to get in the order book for low-production McLarens. There are guys on here who got a Senna who didn't own a P1 or anything.
 

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The 5 customers of the production LM's would [obviously] disagree, and those 5 buyers already have great collections consisting of multiple top Mclarens including F1's and F1 GTR's as well as other high end exotica.
I'm not sure, Greg. I don't know that the Lanzante LMs are merely "glorified tuners' cars", but they're not manufacturers' cars either.
Outfits such as Ruf and Alpina are certified manufacturers in their own right. They have their own unique VINs. Instead of getting a Ruf or Alpina, you can get a Porsche retroactively modified by Ruf, or a BMW modified by Alpina, but in general they do not have the same market status as a "true" Ruf or Alpina.

As a general rule, upon resale a tuned or modified car will not get back for the previous owner the full amount that he spent for the modifications. In many cases, the owner is lucky to get back what he would have received if the car were still perfectly stock. This applies, from what I have seen, to the work of even the finest tuners whose work is better than the factory's.

I tried to scrutinise the P1-GTR-LM-Longtail-whatever-they-call-it at Goodwood. The bodywork was beautifully done - I'll give them that. The quality of the work underneath (the engineering, not just the pretty stuff) might be equally good, but I don't know what evidence there may be for that.

Lanzante the tuner/car modifier has yet (as far as I am concerned) to develop a reputation one way or the other.

Paul Lanzante has done a lot, proved himself over several decades, and worked on many McLaren F1 road cars and GTRs.

The present Lanzante Motorsport is not Paul Lanzante; it's his son Dean, as you know. I have nothing against Dean Lanzante, and he may turn out to be brilliant, but, in fairness, he has some way to go before his independent operation can be taken as seriously as Schnitzer, Manthey, Joest, and some others are.

I mean no offence to anyone, but, although Gordon Murray's son is a fine young man, I wouldn't want the son to design a racing car for me.

Is a "Lanzante" P1 as good (relative to its base car) as a Schnitzer BMW or a Manthey Porsche is? I think the jury is still out. Lanzante Motorsport could turn out to be the next Schnitzer, which would be very impressive, but it could possibly turn out to be the next Gemballa, which would be less impressive.

The market is the market, and knows more than do any of us (although it sometimes changes its mind!) ISTM that the added value in the "Lanzante" P1 GTRs is largely and perhaps entirely the fact that, in the UK and maybe in a few other places, they are road legal. To be sure, that is a nice feature to have, but it relates more to finding a way around the rules than it does to making a great car greater.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
The way I see it is that at least 5 gents paid north of £3m (IIRC) for the LMs. Each of these chaps are likely competitors for the most prestigious McLaren collections in the world. None of these chaps are likely to sell their car for the foreseable future, all things being equal.

This makes me think a few things:

1. Perhaps Lanzante, in this context should be seen more in the line of coachbuilders than tuners; at least the purchasing arrangement seems reminiscent of Coachbuilding with one individual pushing the project and others buying into the vision.
2. The involvement of MA with the 'road legal' GTR and LM projects is indicative of a relationship closer to that between Manthey and Porsche.
3. The buy-in by such customers is a huge vote of confidence.
4. The likelihood of another handful of people in the world wanting these cars may be quite high, assisting with the maintenance of such values.

I think it is compelling that Lanzante has much more gravitas than the majority of tuners, particularly at this stage.
 

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The way I see it is that at least 5 gents paid north of £3m (IIRC) for the LMs. Each of these chaps are likely competitors for the most prestigious McLaren collections in the world. None of these chaps are likely to sell their car for the foreseable future, all things being equal.

This makes me think a few things:

1. Perhaps Lanzante, in this context should be seen more in the line of coachbuilders than tuners; at least the purchasing arrangement seems reminiscent of Coachbuilding with one individual pushing the project and others buying into the vision.
2. The involvement of MA with the 'road legal' GTR and LM projects is indicative of a relationship closer to that between Manthey and Porsche.
3. The buy-in by such customers is a huge vote of confidence.
4. The likelihood of another handful of people in the world wanting these cars may be quite high, assisting with the maintenance of such values.

I think it is compelling that Lanzante has much more gravitas than the majority of tuners, particularly at this stage.
I would respectfully disagree with your conclusions.

One specific point illustrates, I think, the differences between "tuners".
You write that the involvement of McLaren with the road-legal GTR and LM projects is indicative of a relationship closer than that between Manthey and Porsche.
AFAIK, the primary involvement of McLaren with the Lanzante project was to agree to sell them whatever spare parts they wanted, loan them a road legal windscreen to get the cars past the Individual Vehicle Approval test, and probably give them some information regarding aero balance and cooling requirements - that sort of thing.

For years, Manthey have been Porsche's primary development team for the 911-based cars that are a huge part of Porsche's racing business. The Manthey cars are where Porsche test new ideas prior to getting regulatory approval for the following season. Weissach would regularly look to Manthey to sort out problems that they (Porsche) could not solve themselves.

This relationship extended to the road cars. I remember one time when Porsche were developing the 997 GT2 RS. Manthey had already done something to improve the GT2's suspension (it may have been related to rear camber - I don't recall exactly) on the "Manthey" development car. Eventually Weissach called Olaf and said, "We have spent a week trying to do to our development car what you claim you have done to your car, and we have concluded that it is impossible." Olaf laughed and said, "If you want to see how it is possible, just come up to Meuspath and I will show you." Porsche came, Porsche saw, and Porsche changed the production GT2 RS as a result.

This is to say, the relationship between Porsche and Manthey has been exceptionally close. The relationship was formalised four years ago when Porsche bought a 51% interest in Manthey Racing. I'd say that's rather closer than the relationship between Dean Lanzante and McLaren Automotive. The Porsche RSR factory cars in WEC and Le Mans are actually entered under the name "Manthey Porsche". The official Porsche.com website even has a separate page describing the Manthey Porsche team: https://www.porsche.com/specials/en/international/porsche-racing-experience/manthey-racing/

I know less about Schnitzer, but at least when I was involved the factory BMW cars (outside of Formula One) were prepared and run by Schnitzer Motorsport.

I don't know how soon we should expect Dean Lanzante to be developing, preparing and running McLaren racing cars on behalf of the factory, but I would not hold my breath. ;)
 

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Well, we'll find out if/when one hits the auction.

I wouldn't be surprised if one was bought by a guy in Chicago who also owns stuff like an F1 LM and has what seems like a car warehouse the size of several basketball courts. He's probably worth hundreds of millions of dollars, maybe even billions. I wouldn't say someone like that buying a $4M car is necessarily a vote of confidence. The modern Bugattis aren't collectibles IMO and those are like $3-5M too.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
I would respectfully disagree with your conclusions.

One specific point illustrates, I think, the differences between "tuners".
You write that the involvement of McLaren with the road-legal GTR and LM projects is indicative of a relationship closer than that between Manthey and Porsche.
<acronym title="As far as I know">AFAIK</acronym>, the primary involvement of McLaren with the Lanzante project was to agree to sell them whatever spare parts they wanted, loan them a road legal windscreen to get the cars past the Individual Vehicle Approval test, and probably give them some information regarding aero balance and cooling requirements - that sort of thing.

For years, Manthey have been Porsche's primary development team for the 911-based cars that are a huge part of Porsche's racing business. The Manthey cars are where Porsche test new ideas prior to getting regulatory approval for the following season. Weissach would regularly look to Manthey to sort out problems that they (Porsche) could not solve themselves.

This relationship extended to the road cars. I remember one time when Porsche were developing the 997 GT2 RS. Manthey had already done something to improve the GT2's suspension (it may have been related to rear camber - I don't recall exactly) on the "Manthey" development car. Eventually Weissach called Olaf and said, "We have spent a week trying to do to our development car what you claim you have done to your car, and we have concluded that it is impossible." Olaf laughed and said, "If you want to see how it is possible, just come up to Meuspath and I will show you." Porsche came, Porsche saw, and Porsche changed the production GT2 RS as a result.

This is to say, the relationship between Porsche and Manthey has been exceptionally close. The relationship was formalised four years ago when Porsche bought a 51% interest in Manthey Racing. I'd say that's rather closer than the relationship between Dean Lanzante and McLaren Automotive. The Porsche RSR factory cars in WEC and Le Mans are actually entered under the name "Manthey Porsche". The official Porsche.com website even has a separate page describing the Manthey Porsche team: https://www.porsche.com/specials/en/international/porsche-racing-experience/manthey-racing/

I know less about Schnitzer, but at least when I was involved the factory BMW cars (outside of Formula One) were prepared and run by Schnitzer Motorsport.

I don't know how soon we should expect Dean Lanzante to be developing, preparing and running McLaren racing cars on behalf of the factory, but I would not hold my breath. ;)
I feel I have phrased my line poorly! What I meant by that sentence was:

'The involvement of MA with the 'road legal' GTR and LM projects is indicative of a relationship [which is more similar] to that between Manthey and Porsche[, than a normal tuning company].'

I completely agree: what Porsche and Manthey have is rather special. I once was fortunate to visit Manthey a receive a tour with a group of McLaren owners. I was taken by the quality of their engineering and also their tight relationship with the factory. I certainly would not consider Lanzante to be that close to MA. But I would think it was clear that they are more similar to that than to Mansory/Underground Racing/Gemballa/etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Well, we'll find out if/when one hits the auction.

I wouldn't be surprised if one was bought by a guy in Chicago who also owns stuff like an F1 LM and has what seems like a car warehouse the size of several basketball courts. He's probably worth hundreds of millions of dollars, maybe even billions. I wouldn't say someone like that buying a $4M car is necessarily a vote of confidence. The modern Bugattis aren't collectibles IMO and those are like $3-5M too.
I am interested to see if one will ever hit auction. I feel any are more likely to sell off-market, if at all in the near future.

I'd hope that the chap in Chicago, having accumulated such means, would be partial to quality products and not tat. His collection of McLarens, in particular, is rather comprehensive and indicates good taste (IMO).

I hope you have not recently paid $3-5m for a Veyron as you can find a lovely array publicly advertised for up to $2.6m currently. Will a little negootiation and a nice smile, I am sure you could get one a lot cheaper >:)

I think laying down multiple millions for any single product is a vote of confidence (at least in the subjective desirability of that product) to 99.99999999% of this world.
 

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Bugatti Divo is supposedly $6M, Chiron Sport starts at like $3.25M... They're all just going to depreciate though IMO, just like the Veyron all depreciated too.

I'm pretty sure that most of these boutique multi-million dollar cars depreciate. I know Koenigseggs did/do.
 

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I'm not sure, Greg. I don't know that the Lanzante LMs are merely "glorified tuners' cars", but they're not manufacturers' cars either.
Outfits such as Ruf and Alpina are certified manufacturers in their own right. They have their own unique VINs. Instead of getting a Ruf or Alpina, you can get a Porsche retroactively modified by Ruf, or a BMW modified by Alpina, but in general they do not have the same market status as a "true" Ruf or Alpina.

As a general rule, upon resale a tuned or modified car will not get back for the previous owner the full amount that he spent for the modifications. In many cases, the owner is lucky to get back what he would have received if the car were still perfectly stock. This applies, from what I have seen, to the work of even the finest tuners whose work is better than the factory's.

I tried to scrutinise the P1-GTR-LM-Longtail-whatever-they-call-it at Goodwood. The bodywork was beautifully done - I'll give them that. The quality of the work underneath (the engineering, not just the pretty stuff) might be equally good, but I don't know what evidence there may be for that.

Lanzante the tuner/car modifier has yet (as far as I am concerned) to develop a reputation one way or the other.

Paul Lanzante has done a lot, proved himself over several decades, and worked on many McLaren F1 road cars and GTRs.

The present Lanzante Motorsport is not Paul Lanzante; it's his son Dean, as you know. I have nothing against Dean Lanzante, and he may turn out to be brilliant, but, in fairness, he has some way to go before his independent operation can be taken as seriously as Schnitzer, Manthey, Joest, and some others are.

I mean no offence to anyone, but, although Gordon Murray's son is a fine young man, I wouldn't want the son to design a racing car for me.

Is a "Lanzante" P1 as good (relative to its base car) as a Schnitzer BMW or a Manthey Porsche is? I think the jury is still out. Lanzante Motorsport could turn out to be the next Schnitzer, which would be very impressive, but it could possibly turn out to be the next Gemballa, which would be less impressive.

The market is the market, and knows more than do any of us (although it sometimes changes its mind!) ISTM that the added value in the "Lanzante" P1 GTRs is largely and perhaps entirely the fact that, in the UK and maybe in a few other places, they are road legal. To be sure, that is a nice feature to have, but it relates more to finding a way around the rules than it does to making a great car greater.

I quoted quite carefully, and my reply was specific to the quote ;)

I am confident that were a P1LM come up for sale there would be a fair few HNWI's willing to part with north of £4m or £5m or maybe even more in the future to own one. I would imagine the initial sale figure quoted by scottishxj220 is in the ballpark-ish, given the base cars cost plus its transformation in to the LM.


I can see that Lanzante aren't tuners in the same vein as Schnitzer or Manthey. Lanzante though do more than the one marque; they have a project under way for another marque and also look after classic racing Jaguars, GT40's, Ferraris, Lotus, Cobras etc etc as well as provide support for classic events for their clients.


I have yet to see underneath the GT, but going by pictures Dean has hosted an one social media site the workings underneath look like they mirror the GTR's up to the rear of the car, and having snuck a peek under the rear bodywork at Goodwood the elongated section added by him looks to be manufactured to at least the same standard as the rest of the car from McLaren. I'm sure there is more to the GT under the skin that's different to the GTR, but I'm not an engineer / mechanic to know what those differences are. I do know that the car seems to be very well received on social media, and the owner is very happy with it.

I also agree that the Lanzante P1 GTR's are valued higher than the track-only GTR's as they are road registered, opening a broader market than what just a track car can reach.

The way I see it is that at least 5 gents paid north of £3m (IIRC) for the LMs. Each of these chaps are likely competitors for the most prestigious McLaren collections in the world. None of these chaps are likely to sell their car for the foreseable future, all things being equal.

This makes me think a few things:

1. Perhaps Lanzante, in this context should be seen more in the line of coachbuilders than tuners; at least the purchasing arrangement seems reminiscent of Coachbuilding with one individual pushing the project and others buying into the vision.
2. The involvement of MA with the 'road legal' GTR and LM projects is indicative of a relationship closer to that between Manthey and Porsche.
3. The buy-in by such customers is a huge vote of confidence.
4. The likelihood of another handful of people in the world wanting these cars may be quite high, assisting with the maintenance of such values.

I think it is compelling that Lanzante has much more gravitas than the majority of tuners, particularly at this stage.
I agree with pretty much all that and is what I was thinking of when I replied earlier, although re 2) I'm not sure to what level both manufacturers involvement is in both Company's.
 

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I quoted quite carefully, and my reply was specific to the quote ;)

I am confident that were a P1LM come up for sale there would be a fair few HNWI's willing to part with north of £4m or £5m or maybe even more in the future to own one. I would imagine the initial sale figure quoted by scottishxj220 is in the ballpark-ish, given the base cars cost plus its transformation in to the LM.

I can see that Lanzante aren't tuners in the same vein as Schnitzer or Manthey. Lanzante though do more than the one marque; they have a project under way for another marque and also look after classic racing Jaguars, GT40's, Ferraris, Lotus, Cobras etc etc as well as provide support for classic events for their clients.

I have yet to see underneath the GT, but going by pictures Dean has hosted an one social media site the workings underneath look like they mirror the GTR's up to the rear of the car, and having snuck a peek under the rear bodywork at Goodwood the elongated section added by him looks to be manufactured to at least the same standard as the rest of the car from McLaren. I'm sure there is more to the GT under the skin that's different to the GTR, but I'm not an engineer / mechanic to know what those differences are. I do know that the car seems to be very well received on social media, and the owner is very happy with it.

I also agree that the Lanzante P1 GTR's are valued higher than the track-only GTR's as they are road registered, opening a broader market than what just a track car can reach.

I agree with pretty much all that and is what I was thinking of when I replied earlier, although re 2) I'm not sure to what level both manufacturers involvement is in both Company's.
Okay, I guess you're saying that, by definition, there are at least five people who have shown that they were willing to spend £"X"millions for one of these Lanzante cars, they are collectors, and therefore these are "collectors' cars". Fair enough, one cannot disagree with that logic. (I would mention that great normally aspirated, metal chassis, non-hybrid, non-downforce classic cars such as GT40s and Cobras have almost nothing in common with P1s except for four wheels and rubber tyres, but that does not refute that the Lanzante cars were bought by people who collect cars.)

The world is getting crazy (ier). There was an economist called Fred Hirsch who coined the phrase "positional good", meaning something that was valued not because of its intrinsic qualities but merely because few other people could have it.

Somebody paid $300m for a painting by Gauguin, one of the most over-rated artists of all time. I was surprised to read only a couple of months ago that someone had just paid $70m for a 250 GTO, and then a friend who is an insider in the rare air of collectors' cars told me that earlier this year someone else paid $100m for a better example that he really wanted (I guess that would be really, really wanted). If you want to buy an F1 these days, the first digit will be a "2".
So there is a shitload of money floating around, it's concentrated in the hands of a small % of people, which means that those people have much more money than they know what to do with and they're going to spend some of it just because they can. There obviously are some folks who are crazy about what Lanzante does, just as there are others who are crazy about what Koenigsegg or Pagani or Pininfarina does. Even Ferrari has a few fans. Different strokes for different folks.

The market has its own logic and reality, although it doesn't always have a lot of sense. Regardless of price, there are scores of cars that I would rather have than a P1 GTR LM, although I'll admit that it looks good.
:)
 
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