Have we all been drawn into the most over hyped car in history? I am a staunch mc supporter.However I am starting to think we have all, including me been mugged off! After six tests the 12c has had its arse kicked six times! !!!! What the f$$k is going on? ???
Over hyped ?
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It's hard to say exactly what is happening in these magazine comparisons, although I'll agree the results are surprising on the track lap times. The 458 ringer theory muddies the lens, but even still, some of the testers to do not seem to be getting the same driving impressions that they did at Portimao and in the days subsequent, some of which were also on track (i.e. Harris). Strange.
I'm reserving judgement until more information is available. So far I'm inclined to believe McLaren about the performance potential (i.e. the 1:27.5 lap at Rockingham, Goodwin's Dunsfold claim) but I'm definitely anxious to find out why mag testers aren't getting the same.
As far as a$$-kicking, the only evidence I've seen of either of these cars getting decisively murdered is in both of the straight line drag races, where the 12C is clearly in another league compared to the 458.
I'm reserving judgement until more information is available. So far I'm inclined to believe McLaren about the performance potential (i.e. the 1:27.5 lap at Rockingham, Goodwin's Dunsfold claim) but I'm definitely anxious to find out why mag testers aren't getting the same.
As far as a$$-kicking, the only evidence I've seen of either of these cars getting decisively murdered is in both of the straight line drag races, where the 12C is clearly in another league compared to the 458.
I just signed up for one with a huge fat deposit too with no pricing no schedule and no showroom.
This can't be Fezza paying everyone... first comes the car is an engineering marvel that lacks emotions to now 5th gear's, I am disappointed... on paper it is better but it really isn't...the engine is better on the 458 and the gearbox is better on the 458. This is going to hurt sales of the car and as the first HALO car project to challenge FEZZA, Ron has not hit the nail but stepped on one. This can't be good as the first show car for him to plan to sell 47% of his shares through credit suisse.
This will hurt sales as well as resale. Everyone will think of the 458 more.
Actually, I feel a little bummed too. I have never driven one but this does affect sales.
Conspiracy is that they have to KILL THE BETTER CAR for audience like they always have to kill the 911 Turbo for the GTR.
Or is this a marketing strategy so Ron can say the better car is the next one up... I can't imagine... there will be many cancelled orders?
They just have to kill my baby.
The only test which MP4 did ahead marginally was the evo drag test. Then again, I can't believe this is happening. Honestly, Ron, being so much of a perfectionist and fastidious man getting out of F1 to embark here on a HALO car which is supposed to be revolutionary (which I admit it is with monocell and all...) must not be happy. Anthony and Ron over in Woking seriously have to do some media damage control. This goes beyond entertainment. All the shot down let down disappointment to public and potential buyers will go beyond declining sales, resale, second hand value, why? Cos this bad media is already hurting Ron's reputation after all this spy shots and talks since 2009 on this most most hyped and expected supercar and it leaves a bad mark to the successful McLaren F1's legacy. Worst, the SLR McLaren we knew how the experiment fared and this is a further blow. It will hurt Ron's reputation and the whole team. Worst, the ramifications are far beyond entertainment because it will hurt the future of McLaren Automotive and even potential investors, PE funds. Maybe McLaren Automotive was looking to be bought by an OEM or car company putting it up as HALO car like Lambo to Audi but with this review, this will put a bad mark.... or am I thinking too much. Now I worry about my purchase and refund as well...
For me the MP4 is the first car of that category i m interested to buy.
Even if i m Belgian, i ve always been big fan of Brits sports car, and if so far i had been mainly into TVR and Lotus, it is really because i just never been attracted by any Porsche or ferrari. Good, as all cars i had was not very expensive, the McLaren is just the first car who pops up which can decide me to spend 200.000 euros for first time in my life in a car.
So none of these test will make change my mind, i want the MP4, and no other competitor.
The lap times are clearly weird, I don't think Ron dennis is a silly guy, when he said the MP4 was faster, it is probably that in their own test it was.
So why it is not now, i guess no one will ever know the real answer. It is sure the Ferrari is strangely quick, probably due to the new tyre evolution they seem to wear as it is in the bend she is faster, and the most easy and efficient gain there is from tyre. If not that, in straight line the MP4 is clearly much faster.
Still, the game moves on and if i m sure the MP4 is clearly faster than any 458 produced till now, Ferrari obviously was not going to watch the Macca to beat them and to do nothing, Ron Dennis has maybe a bit underestimate their potential reaction.
Still as the Chassis technology of the MP4 is clearly ahead, i think that some little changes can probably putt it back well in front, like it is probably compare to any 458 already on the roads.
Another element is that the Mp4 is a brand new car, and that test driver drive it for first time probably made loose her a few tenth compare to all the other cars in test that they drove many times before.
As its said in the other topic, MLaren pay maybe also a bit the too nigh self confidence theta showed for months in their communication, so it makes big titles that what they said is discussable.
All in all, i think the Mp4 is very well born, just Ron dennis had a bit under evaluate the fact that Ferrari will fight hard, and that the last months, the last weeks, they probably did everything possible to improve the 458.
Now, in real world, let's be clear, on the road, no normal driver will ever use more than 50% potential of cars of that level of performances, so which one is few tenth faster on track is rather irrelevant.
On track days, 99% of us will also stay quiet far from the lap times possible, so again…at our level it makes not much difference which one is the faster driven by a pro driver.
Let's be clear, the 458 as tested now is probably fully developed, and has nothing more to gain in it in the coming months, despite that, the Mp4 is well there, is brand new so still full of possible evolution, no doubt in few months the MP4 will be the faster in any condition, so it is great car, i think that it is a completely new player arriving worth he hype in itself, so my wish to order the MP4 is really not disturbed by any magazine test or lap times.
It is benefit for all customers anyway, it is maybe in decades the first really new serious competitor Ferrari has, and as it is in F1, it will be great see them to fight in road cars business as in that business, there are much more than 4 drivers who can enjoy the progress of the car because of the competition
Even if i m Belgian, i ve always been big fan of Brits sports car, and if so far i had been mainly into TVR and Lotus, it is really because i just never been attracted by any Porsche or ferrari. Good, as all cars i had was not very expensive, the McLaren is just the first car who pops up which can decide me to spend 200.000 euros for first time in my life in a car.
So none of these test will make change my mind, i want the MP4, and no other competitor.
The lap times are clearly weird, I don't think Ron dennis is a silly guy, when he said the MP4 was faster, it is probably that in their own test it was.
So why it is not now, i guess no one will ever know the real answer. It is sure the Ferrari is strangely quick, probably due to the new tyre evolution they seem to wear as it is in the bend she is faster, and the most easy and efficient gain there is from tyre. If not that, in straight line the MP4 is clearly much faster.
Still, the game moves on and if i m sure the MP4 is clearly faster than any 458 produced till now, Ferrari obviously was not going to watch the Macca to beat them and to do nothing, Ron Dennis has maybe a bit underestimate their potential reaction.
Still as the Chassis technology of the MP4 is clearly ahead, i think that some little changes can probably putt it back well in front, like it is probably compare to any 458 already on the roads.
Another element is that the Mp4 is a brand new car, and that test driver drive it for first time probably made loose her a few tenth compare to all the other cars in test that they drove many times before.
As its said in the other topic, MLaren pay maybe also a bit the too nigh self confidence theta showed for months in their communication, so it makes big titles that what they said is discussable.
All in all, i think the Mp4 is very well born, just Ron dennis had a bit under evaluate the fact that Ferrari will fight hard, and that the last months, the last weeks, they probably did everything possible to improve the 458.
Now, in real world, let's be clear, on the road, no normal driver will ever use more than 50% potential of cars of that level of performances, so which one is few tenth faster on track is rather irrelevant.
On track days, 99% of us will also stay quiet far from the lap times possible, so again…at our level it makes not much difference which one is the faster driven by a pro driver.
Let's be clear, the 458 as tested now is probably fully developed, and has nothing more to gain in it in the coming months, despite that, the Mp4 is well there, is brand new so still full of possible evolution, no doubt in few months the MP4 will be the faster in any condition, so it is great car, i think that it is a completely new player arriving worth he hype in itself, so my wish to order the MP4 is really not disturbed by any magazine test or lap times.
It is benefit for all customers anyway, it is maybe in decades the first really new serious competitor Ferrari has, and as it is in F1, it will be great see them to fight in road cars business as in that business, there are much more than 4 drivers who can enjoy the progress of the car because of the competition
Agree very much. It is a piece of automotive history to own. An iconic revolutionary ground breaking supercar. However, first impression is important. It is now upstream battle for Ron and team to control media damage. When 458 came out in 2010, all press reviews were positive before any evolution. Job well done. For the Halo first car to impress the world, maybe Ron didn't manage expectations for the journals and made them expect too much when they all found out that all the tech gizmos didn't really live up to the elegance, personality, engine, feel to the 458.For me the MP4 is the first car of that category i m interested to buy.
Even if i m Belgian, i ve always been big fan of Brits sports car, and if so far i had been mainly into TVR and Lotus, it is really because i just never been attracted by any Porsche or ferrari. Good, as all cars i had was not very expensive, the McLaren is just the first car who pops up which can decide me to spend 200.000 euros for first time in my life in a car.
So none of these test will make change my mind, i want the MP4, and no other competitor.
The lap times are clearly weird, I don't think Ron dennis is a silly guy, when he said the MP4 was faster, it is probably that in their own test it was.
So why it is not now, i guess no one will ever know the real answer. It is sure the Ferrari is strangely quick, probably due to the new tyre evolution they seem to wear as it is in the bend she is faster, and the most easy and efficient gain there is from tyre. If not that, in straight line the MP4 is clearly much faster.
Still, the game moves on and if i m sure the MP4 is clearly faster than any 458 produced till now, Ferrari obviously was not going to watch the Macca to beat them and to do nothing, Ron Dennis has maybe a bit underestimate their potential reaction.
Still as the Chassis technology of the MP4 is clearly ahead, i think that some little changes can probably putt it back well in front, like it is probably compare to any 458 already on the roads.
Another element is that the Mp4 is a brand new car, and that test driver drive it for first time probably made loose her a few tenth compare to all the other cars in test that they drove many times before.
As its said in the other topic, MLaren pay maybe also a bit the too nigh self confidence theta showed for months in their communication, so it makes big titles that what they said is discussable.
All in all, i think the Mp4 is very well born, just Ron dennis had a bit under evaluate the fact that Ferrari will fight hard, and that the last months, the last weeks, they probably did everything possible to improve the 458.
Now, in real world, let's be clear, on the road, no normal driver will ever use more than 50% potential of cars of that level of performances, so which one is few tenth faster on track is rather irrelevant.
On track days, 99% of us will also stay quiet far from the lap times possible, so again…at our level it makes not much difference which one is the faster driven by a pro driver.
Let's be clear, the 458 as tested now is probably fully developed, and has nothing more to gain in it in the coming months, despite that, the Mp4 is well there, is brand new so still full of possible evolution, no doubt in few months the MP4 will be the faster in any condition, so it is great car, i think that it is a completely new player arriving worth he hype in itself, so my wish to order the MP4 is really not disturbed by any magazine test or lap times.
It is benefit for all customers anyway, it is maybe in decades the first really new serious competitor Ferrari has, and as it is in F1, it will be great see them to fight in road cars business as in that business, there are much more than 4 drivers who can enjoy the progress of the car because of the competition
Agree, I drive avg 50km/h anyway but in 5th gear test, it was mostly personal observations with not much quantifiable numbers thrown in like drag times or lap times. They were going by the steering feel and fun factor which are very very important to me. I couldn't care less about the speed and track times but I do care about the fun factor.
I have taken the plunge and I worry about getting my deposit back and the possiblity of even losing it and will reserve my judgement until TG and a few other writeups come out. So far, all signs going against Woking. Ron, if he's the perfectionist described as is, must be furious and if he's serious, he will need to make a come back in whatever way it is. Re-program the car, put on different slicks, do somethind to the gear mapping or ESP off whatever it is... it is also not right to say that the car is gonna be superfast and capable when driven the right way. A good car should be one that can be driven by anybody and still feel fast and safe and capable. If the cari s designed by Ron button Hamilton for Ron Button and Hamilton only, then it doesn't qualify to be called an everyday supercar. It should be called a Formula 1 Driver's Supercar. Designedby professional for professional only.
I must stay calm and reserve my judgement. However, this weekend's tests have many of us bottled up with mixed feelings a lot. I like the McLaren and I like to own an automotive piece of history but the feeling of throwing down this kind of money should mean I m buying an absolute piece of marvel and not one which I have to re program myself to drive or re think about the buy. I certainly don't want to spend this sort of money to have to be make defense and excuses for what might otherwise be the best purchase.
I do need some encouragement.
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fast,safe and capable,thats exactley what it was when i drove it!I think i would like to drive a car like tiff and jason,but it would have to be theirs ,not mine. But if i can drive to my ability without stuffing it ,thats what i really want.so if the track times come in the real world,and i can beat people of similar ability on track days,without going sideways,this is the car for me.
ps my DD is modified 997tt and there is no way i could punt it round a circuit like i did the 12c after only 1/2 a lap,and i suppose i was using the same driving style ive been using for years,but getting faster each lap as i realized i didnt have to go slow in fast out like a 911
Don't think it was just Mac that overhyped. ALL the early roadtests without exception worshipped the car like it was the 2nd comming. Evo, Autocar, Chris Harris etc. Phases like 'will run rings around a 458', totally outclass a 458 in every measurable criteria, revolutionary etc etc. Have just rewatched some of them. Must be a different car:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvi21SFsf5c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRy1zHAB2N8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2JVR0mAzjQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvi21SFsf5c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRy1zHAB2N8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2JVR0mAzjQ
This certainly is very interesting or should I say strange. I did recall Chris said the car was amazing 3 cars in 1 and a few said job very well done.
So what went on between those and this weekend is certainly above and beyond me. Are those even the same cars? They certainly speak day and night differences. Did something change in the new test cars on the MP4-12C or did 458 improve the test cars? It is very interesting and it will be more interesting as matters unfold. This will only be very very short and I suspect days or before July comes someone will come out with a more reasonable explanation. For sure the PR and media/corp comm must be busy doing damage control. They are all sitting tight to watch Top Gear and coming up with a press release or some solution. The group still has shareholders to answer to and they all will watch these. This is now beyond car comparisons its big money on the table and at risks.
I'm still hopeful Mac will come out the bag with something. This car is the spearhead of their long-term business plan ( think it was 13 models and 5000 cars a year or something similar).
If this car flops investment in the whole road-car division is in trouble.
If this car flops investment in the whole road-car division is in trouble.
Agree. I am in Asia and can't watch TG and almost bed time for work tom
BTW, I still like the car. I just configured mine again honed it. If it goes through, it will be Titanium Silver (Standard, Special, Elite). Allow me to detract a bit it should be in picture thread but is it worth it to get beyond standard silver? Orange Caliper CCB standard stealth rims and black leather interior leather seats and orange stitchings.
It will be classic and classy and stealthy. I like the orange caliper.
Anyway, I await waking up tomorrow see if there is any result on TG.
I suspect before 7.1, we should see some press answer.
What really changed?
It can't change so much so fast so soon from March 14 when Sutcliff reviewed it to now when he once said run circles around 458 and above and beyond 458 emotions aside he even said he would have one over 458. Then you see the autocar test.
Chris also said the car was unlike anything he had ever driven in a most positive way. In sports mode is a normal 430 and track mode stupidly fast and he even said the car stopped better than 458 on even a wet track with brakesteer and most capable on road. Then you see this Evo test.
Did Mp4 deteriorated? Did the test drivers change minds? Did 458 get better?
Tiff and Plato put the nails on the coffin and Jeremy Clarkson for sure will hammer it then it's all dark...
BTW, I still like the car. I just configured mine again honed it. If it goes through, it will be Titanium Silver (Standard, Special, Elite). Allow me to detract a bit it should be in picture thread but is it worth it to get beyond standard silver? Orange Caliper CCB standard stealth rims and black leather interior leather seats and orange stitchings.
It will be classic and classy and stealthy. I like the orange caliper.
Anyway, I await waking up tomorrow see if there is any result on TG.
I suspect before 7.1, we should see some press answer.
What really changed?
It can't change so much so fast so soon from March 14 when Sutcliff reviewed it to now when he once said run circles around 458 and above and beyond 458 emotions aside he even said he would have one over 458. Then you see the autocar test.
Chris also said the car was unlike anything he had ever driven in a most positive way. In sports mode is a normal 430 and track mode stupidly fast and he even said the car stopped better than 458 on even a wet track with brakesteer and most capable on road. Then you see this Evo test.
Did Mp4 deteriorated? Did the test drivers change minds? Did 458 get better?
Tiff and Plato put the nails on the coffin and Jeremy Clarkson for sure will hammer it then it's all dark...
There's a lot of expectation (mostly due to leaks from Mclaren) that the Mp4 will blitz all the other tin-tops on Topgear. If this is still the case (and I've very sceptical), I'm sure it'll prop up sales/residuals - as in the wider publics perception it will be the 'fastest car'.
Agree. The TG track time is always respected upon due to viewership and how they always hand write the track times and say "ta dung... it fits right above this n below this..." and the sticker on the ladder on every show is pure sales boost Ron needed.
However, given Clarkson's first review and love for Ferrari as a scale down version of God, I have very very little hope that it will do well.
This is the last piece of the puzzle. Even if it does well, it is only one + versus six negatives.
Well, now it's the definitive test given how Top Gear is most watched entertainment or not. Many think of JC as a clown and a buffoon but no one would doubt his success as an entertainer and a winner in gaining viewership.
Let's see then... am I right to presume that we have to wait till 7.2 next weekend as first episode wouldn't have this thrash (surprised, given 5th gear is already out...).
Regardless of TG's show which is good entertainment and test for us, I am very very sure that Ron and the whole McLaren team already know the results. Regardless if it is good or bad, it's done despite no leak or no exact info but right now, McLaren Automotive is already busy prepping production and delivery and PR disaster containment plan. They need to come up and out with a big come back media play in the next few days shooting for a full come back over the weekend of Goodwood FOS maybe?
It maybe non-reply and non-event for Ron and Team. They maybe too confident to address anything.
When's the airing if you could enlighten me? Streetfire.net maybe the place to look at? I am in Asia. I will let my deposit sit for now.
We have no demo no info no spec no dealership no service centre set up everything is still up in the air. Worst, the car over here is priced above and beyond 458 without CCB with base > 458. Which is not motivating for early adopters at all.
When's the airing if you could enlighten me? Streetfire.net maybe the place to look at? I am in Asia. I will let my deposit sit for now.
We have no demo no info no spec no dealership no service centre set up everything is still up in the air. Worst, the car over here is priced above and beyond 458 without CCB with base > 458. Which is not motivating for early adopters at all.
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