McLaren Life banner
901 - 920 of 1,114 Posts
Discussion starter · #901 ·
I disagree with that to some degree. I think they do like making the cars more engaging, and they have with time. The model 3 handles a lot better than early model Ss. But they are a new company, and the driving dynamics take time go get "right". Some would accuse Mclaren of the same things from their early cars!

That said, I do agree somewhat with the spirit of what you say in that clearly, self driving and a lot of the core electric/battery tech has priority over the finer driving dynamics. And while I do believe they care and that they will try to improve driving dynamics, one is well right to wonder why they should believe Tesla would continue to push in this direction, when they foresee a future where drivers will not just have the option to not drive (which is what Elon has gone on record hoping for) but see a future where people will not be allowed to drive their own cars (which Elon foresees as a likely outcome of regulators).
 
We will have to agree to disagree, and eagerly await what the next few years unveils.

I don't find the McLaren situation even remotely comparable. the MP4 shows the companies spirit just like Elon's focus on AI and autopilot shows Tesla's. It's brutally difficult for any company to sustain a direction in conflict with their greater mission. I don't think Elon is much / enough of a car guy for that. The roadster is an after thought. A McLaren / Ferrari / Lambo competitor is a huge distraction and the things that make those cars amazing are structurally things that Tesla is extremely ill suited towards. Track performance, customer service, MSO ...

I don't even think a McLaren worthy competitor in the Roadster would even be good for Tesla's shareholders. The Cybertruck is vastly more important for their success, their company and their profits. If they let Ford and Rivian eat their lunch in that market ... no. Just no. Tesla is deeply unlikely as a company to be able to sustain focus on true sports cars.
 
Discussion starter · #904 ·
I agree to disagree! And I'll add your position is very well put, and you may easily end up being on the better side of the disagreement.

But one note, the MP4 was lambasted as being clinical an basically not having any spirit. I always disagreed with that assessment, but that was the perception. I think the P1, 675, 720 and 765 worked hard to change that perception. And in hindsight, I think people now see how good the 12C was. It's possible that Tesla could evolve their line to consistently improve dynamics and change opinions over time.

That said, you make a compelling argument that Tesla's bread and butter is not a sports car and they have to compete in so many other places, that a sports car can/would be a distraction. And while I agree with that, you can also look at ford and honda, who similarly compete in the 'banal' world of transportation, but every now and then they release a Ford GT or NSX, and it does pretty well. So, you never know. I'm rooting for them to keep improving past the BMW level, but readily accede you may well end up being right on your prognostication.
 
Discussion starter · #906 ·
I‘m hoping for the roadster to become reality one day as I have one on order since 2017 🙈. But Elon has said already that it won‘t be released before cybertruck production is running.
I ordered the cybertruck pretty early. I will be shocked if it is made in any appreciable numbers in 2022.
 
Discussion starter · #909 ·
I don‘t think we will see a cybertruck in customers hands before 2023. Would love to get one too but wouldn‘t make sense where I live. Streets, parking etc. are just too narrow for a truck.
I am so psyched. I used to live in manhatten so was a luxury to even have the macca, which, shockingly, believe it or not, was a FANTASTIC car for the city. If you can have only one car, it was surprisingly spry, amazingly compliant even on the disaster streets. 12C still has the best/comfiest suspension of any macca. So I totally get by practical limitations for something like a big truck.

But now that we're out, I can finally have more than one car! I already got one truck to tide me over until I can test the Cybertruck back to back with the V8 raptor and will see what I like better. But looking to get one or 2 other sportier things too. Every place has its tradeoffs I suppose.

Anyway, I have some family not far from Munich and some of the roads there are wonderful, but some streets in town were definitely on the narrow side.
 
Someone in the electric car market needs to figure out how to make electric more engaging. I don't know who it will be, but I think someone will eventually figure it out. With ICE you get flames, pops, cracks, etc.

It may sound kind of dumb, but maybe they need to figure out how to see visible arcs of electricity through clear panels within an electric car. And have those arcs of electricity make noise and make them tied to specific functions that the driver performs, like accelerating or braking. And they can't be just fake arcs, but something that's real and actually part of the function/performance of the car. Combine that with lighter battery tech to get the cars down to ICE weights and then they will be something special.

But the current state of electric is just boring IMO. That being said, I'm still watching for the new Roadster and may even buy one when they come out, but I doubt it will replace any of my ICE sports/super cars.
 
I lot of car people make the same observation.... BeV lacks the "soul" of ICE.

Tesla is populated with a bunch of Silicon Valley types with some car people being sprinkled in more and more over the years to improve the company's ability to manufacture. The early days, and thus the origins of their DNA, was nearly pure Valley influence.

A bunch of nerds got together under the guidance of one of the world's biggest nerds to re-envision what it is to be a car. Gone were all the ICE hold overs that simply do not make sense or have a purpose. You walk up to a Tesla and the door handles present. You get in, put on your belt, press the brake and the car is "on", has chosen a direction to drive and is awaiting a press of the accelerator to go. On the back end, you stop, unbelt and walk away. There is no putting it in park, turning it off or locking the doors. Tesla literally tossed all that stuff in the bin.

In some's opinion, the baby went out with the bath water in that there is no visceral feedback in the form of vibration, acceleration humps (up the torque curve, shift and then up the curve again), exhaust note, improper mixture resulting in backfires and on and on and on. A technocrat would see all of those things as faults. Those that study human nature will tell you we do not like change - especially change with something we identify with passion.

My view is more of an apples and oranges. I'm grateful that (1) I live in a time where I can experience/witness both and (2) that am in a position to have both. I'm watching BeV overtake ICE in most meaningful ways. My daily driver has been BeV since 2013 and the small number of compromises at the early stages have faded to being a large number of advantages today. Now BeV is nibbling at the heals of my ICE obsession and making inroads at a tremendous pace. I can see a time in the near future where my ICE toys are nostalgic in nature and no longer a requirement for performance at any level.

I do not miss the noise; I'm past the point where I want to draw attention to myself and prefer my hooiganishm goes un-noticed. I no longer have patience for oil temp and prefer the access to power from the moment I sit in the car. The vibration, stink, shake and uneven acceleration is becoming arcane. Perhaps I'm not the purist I once thought I was but these BeVs are out performing ICE on all but the weight related physics limited items. Build quality and interior comfort will come with increased competition.

For me, it's all good. My dad got to watch the transition from horse to car. I get to witness the transition from ICE to BeV. May will live in interesting times.

Happy Holidays to All
 
The wonderful thing is that there are 10s of thousands 355s, 360s, 430s, 12Cs, Gallardos, Mondials, etc in existence. Those who like ICE will have plenty of cars to choose from for the rest of their lives :)

If you care so much about ICE, you're in luck, because there is no shortage old "crappy" ICE exotics available at any given time. I mean, in 2040, what's the difference between a 12C, 458, 355, Gallardo, R8, etc? They will all objective "suck", just like all classic cars kinda "suck". If you're truly buying for the engine and noise, then you have nothing to worry about. If you don't think it's cool to have an F360, well, that's a different problem LOL
 
I do not miss the noise; I'm past the point where I want to draw attention to myself and prefer my hooiganishm goes un-noticed. I no longer have patience for oil temp and prefer the access to power from the moment I sit in the car. The vibration, stink, shake and uneven acceleration is becoming arcane. Perhaps I'm not the purist I once thought I was but these BeVs are out performing ICE on all but the weight related physics limited items. Build quality and interior comfort will come with increased competition.
This. I've been over the noise thing for a long time. That said, even NA engines don't sound half as good inside as they do to people on the street. If you want a great sounding car, just make fake noise through the speakers. You should be able to (procedurally?) generate a sound that's way better than the actual sound. Why would you want to hear a mediocre muffled V8 TT if you could just pipe in a pristine NA V12 as heard by a pedestrian? No one cares that Spotify isn't live or that sound effects in movies isn't enjoyable...

The thing about "digital" and electronic systems is that you can really make whatever experience you want. You can pretty much replicate any mechanical system you want, if you really care to. I'm just waiting for someone to put a video game stick in an EV and program the powertrain to require and respond to movements of the joystick and a fake transmission.
 
Maybe a generation brought up in ‘silence’ as it relates to car sounds might not care going forward...But let’s not kid ourselves. F1 was/is the most popular motor sport on the planet in large part due to SOUND. Top Fuel dragsters literally ‘shake the ground’ and make you ‘feel’ a certain way. They smell a certain way. Nitro methane, racing fuel...lovely...Maybe the next generation will prefer the smell of melted batteries...LOL.

Senna’s Monaco lap isn’t the same without the sound and the one handed shifting. Why do today’s F1 drivers marvel at it? Slower can be harder and more engaging. Fangio had more balls than any F1 driver today and risked his life every time out. Does this mean that danger is the difference between EV and ICE...No it simply means the more that computers become a component of life, the less that is required from people. They are literally building ‘drones’...but those drones are actually US. Loving EV tech is to hate driving. Why?? Because in a certain number of years that tech will completely replace the need for driving at all. Yet...somehow that generation will tell me how awesome it is to NOT have to drive. There will be some benefits...safety being one of them...especially for people who don’t like driving...but also drawbacks. Hopefully they’ll still let us drive on race tracks.

If efficiency was the ‘only’ things humans cared about, then many products we use wouldn’t exist...including Rolex watches that have double this last year. Has your iPhone doubled in value? A Picasso or an NFT?

Why do you like certain movies better than others? Because of how they make you FEEL. The emotions they elicit. We’re not robots.

I can go to Pebble Beach and see a 1930’s RollsRoyce and marvel at the craftsmanship...the art, the beauty...not the stamped out Apple Watch. I’d rather cruise a country road in that over a Tesla with a Rolex on and a Picasso in the trunk...but to each their own. Big blue or Gary Kasparov...

I think EV and other tech has a place in society...(I’d love an EV X7 for my wife)...but it’s no longer ‘a place’, IT IS society now. Everything you see, touch or talk about online has a digital footprint...that will only get worse. Neuro-link? No thanks. Digital currency...no thanks. There are limits to control and I think we’re past them...EV is a big part of that process.

The only thing constant in life is change. I get that...but this type of change is just as much about control as it is forward technology. When Tesla thinks you’re driving like an idiot...they’ll step in...they can already see exactly how you drive and stop you. Control for YOUR own good. No thanks. Before you say it...yes...I know we already live in ‘that’ society...but it’s going to get much much worse with restrictions over reach. Worst part is, people are asking for it...but don’t realize the repercussions of their actions. Demolition Man...no thanks. It’s not an exaggeration...it’s upon us.

I’d rather rev match a manual Miata at 1/10th the speed of an EV that drives itself around the track/road. Again...there is a huge place for EV in society...it is superior...but humans aren’t robots...and what it represents for society in the future is not something I like to think about.
 
Maybe a generation brought up in ‘silence’ as it relates to car sounds might not care going forward...But let’s not kid ourselves. F1 was/is the most popular motor sport on the planet in large part due to SOUND. Top Fuel dragsters literally ‘shake the ground’ and make you ‘feel’ a certain way. They smell a certain way. Nitro methane, racing fuel...lovely...Maybe the next generation will prefer the smell of melted batteries...LOL.

Senna’s Monaco lap isn’t the same without the sound and the one handed shifting. Why do today’s F1 drivers marvel at it? Slower can be harder and more engaging. Fangio had more balls than any F1 driver today and risked his life every time out. Does this mean that danger is the difference between EV and ICE...No it simply means the more that computers become a component of life, the less that is required from people. They are literally building ‘drones’...but those drones are actually US. Loving EV tech is to hate driving. Why?? Because in a certain number of years that tech will completely replace the need for driving at all. Yet...somehow that generation will tell me how awesome it is to NOT have to drive. There will be some benefits...safety being one of them...especially for people who don’t like driving...but also drawbacks. Hopefully they’ll still let us drive on race tracks.

If efficiency was the ‘only’ things humans cared about, then many products we use wouldn’t exist...including Rolex watches that have double this last year. Has your iPhone doubled in value? A Picasso or an NFT?

Why do you like certain movies better than others? Because of how they make you FEEL. The emotions they elicit. We’re not robots.

I can go to Pebble Beach and see a 1930’s RollsRoyce and marvel at the craftsmanship...the art, the beauty...not the stamped out Apple Watch. I’d rather cruise a country road in that over a Tesla with a Rolex on and a Picasso in the trunk...but to each their own. Big blue or Gary Kasparov...

I think EV and other tech has a place in society...(I’d love an EV X7 for my wife)...but it’s no longer ‘a place’, IT IS society now. Everything you see, touch or talk about online has a digital footprint...that will only get worse. Neuro-link? No thanks. Digital currency...no thanks. There are limits to control and I think we’re past them...EV is a big part of that process.

The only thing constant in life is change. I get that...but this type of change is just as much about control as it is forward technology. When Tesla thinks you’re driving like an idiot...they’ll step in...they can already see exactly how you drive and stop you. Control for YOUR own good. No thanks. Before you say it...yes...I know we already live in ‘that’ society...but it’s going to get much much worse with restrictions over reach. Worst part is, people are asking for it...but don’t realize the repercussions of their actions. Demolition Man...no thanks. It’s not an exaggeration...it’s upon us.

I’d rather rev match a manual Miata at 1/10th the speed of an EV that drives itself around the track/road. Again...there is a huge place for EV in society...it is superior...but humans aren’t robots...and what it represents for society in the future is not something I like to think about.
I agree with much of that, but not your conclusions. I like to drive, obviously since I own a McLaren, but there are plenty of times when I'm in a car and I'd be fine with the car driving itself.
 
Discussion starter · #917 ·
I think having the option to self drive could be very useful. But sadly I agree with @aorta , the “think of the children“ degenerates will virtue shame/canceling anyone that disagrees. F them all.

Hopefully I get to continue to drive when I want and others can choose not to. Frankly most drivers suck so bad, that replacing them with a machine will be a blessing. Also as the majority go on to self drive it will bankrupt the tax-collections-ticketing cops so maybe they can be redirected to actually helping people.

And when I’m done with driving, the next generation can go on to ban all their freedoms, I won’t give a damn.

Some people just have to learn the hard way.
 
901 - 920 of 1,114 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top