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Discussion Starter #1
I have had my Carrera GT for about a week, my 12c for over a year, and had the 458 spider for about 6 months but I drove it over 2,000 miles including a track day.

I love the CGT. It is the closest thing to a race car for the street... Including the rattling race clutch at slow speed. I wanted a super car version of a Porsche GT3 and this is it. It is very visceral. There is something to be said for the engagement the manual clutch asks of you, or should I say, demands of you. Brakes are typical Porsche and for me, perfect. Of all of these cars, this gets by far the most attention. The sound is vintage F1 (from behind the car). That said this car is not for everyone. If you aren't good with a manual, or let alone, heel-toe, this probably is not for you. For those who can, the well executed throttle blip from this car is sheer gratification! The all carbon tub, sub frame and body panels are beautifully executed. The car feels old-school-built-like-a-bank-vault -- this is missing in all modern exotics it seems. Personally I think this car still looks fairly current, unlike almost decade old exotics. This car is a keeper.

In contrast, the 12c is sooo easy to drive and to drive fast. At an event this past weekend I took a few people for rides but would only let people drive the 12c... since I knew that they would not get into trouble (or burn up a clutch). I won't go on about the 12c since y'all are familiar. I *think* this car is a keeper. In comparison to the road feel with the CGT both have perfect steering feel for me, perhaps with a slight advantage to the 12c as it feels smaller and more nimble. But the 12c feels very slightly more isolated from the road, like a smudge on a window, and I wonder if this is due to the different suspension technologies. On that note, the 12c does win with great road versatility because of its adjustable somewhat active suspension. I wonder though whether the upcoming 991 GT3 RS might be a better every day car while offering same or near same performance? Hypothetical since it wouldn't be worth selling the 12c for anything else right now.

The 458 is unique. It combines the "easy to drive" aspects of the 12c with the visceral feel of the CGT. I can see why it is so popular and on short drives the average person -- or reviewer -- would chose the 458 over the 12c. It doesn't demand skill of the driver while delivering the goods: all the speed and sensation of an exotic car. It is a CGT without the effort or incovenience of a race clutch. Heck, you don't even have to go fast, just go over 3,000 rpm to get the exhaust flap to open up! :) As many ferrari owners will admit, it is not performance that matters, just the sensation of performance. However, I don't mean to knock it as the 458 is a really great driving car and it rewards the skillful driver. And it looks great. My only functional criticism is its overly boosted steering. I think this is the one area where Ferrari went over board in the sensation of performance at the cost of real performance.
 

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Great write up thanks for sharing. I love reading actual reviews like this from actual owners. CGT is and will always be one of my all time favorite cars. Now lets see some pictures!
 

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More concise and to the point than anything I've read in EVO or any other crap rag lately; thanks for sharing.

I'm intrigued by your CGT comments. Can you elaborate what makes it feel less nimble than the 12C? Length? Width? Outward viz? Curb weight is practically identical and I would expect a supercar version of a GT3 RS to feel more nimble than the 12C, not less. Have you owned or driven the 430 Scud and 360 CS? Would you say the CGT is more visceral than those? I ask because when I think of a racecar for the street, I think of a car that weighs considerably less than the 12C and CGT. I guess building that vault-like engineering into the CGT has necessarily added some weight. But, if you say it's actually like a 458, just with a manual box, then I'm actually quite discouraged. Would rather it be more like a Scud with a manual. Lastly which tires are on your CGT? Original pilot sports or new super sports? Thanks much in advance.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
More concise and to the point than anything I've read in EVO or any other crap rag lately; thanks for sharing.

I'm intrigued by your CGT comments. Can you elaborate what makes it feel less nimble than the 12C? Length? Width? Outward viz? Curb weight is practically identical and I would expect a supercar version of a GT3 RS to feel more nimble than the 12C, not less. Have you owned or driven the 430 Scud and 360 CS? Would you say the CGT is more visceral than those? I ask because when I think of a racecar for the street, I think of a car that weighs considerably less than the 12C and CGT. I guess building that vault-like engineering into the CGT has necessarily added some weight. But, if you say it's actually like a 458, just with a manual box, then I'm actually quite discouraged. Would rather it be more like a Scud with a manual. Lastly which tires are on your CGT? Original pilot sports or new super sports? Thanks much in advance.
Great questions, I have the original tires, super sports are on their way. I haven't driven a scud or sc so I can't comment. The difference I found between the CGT and the 12c I think comes down to seating position and perhaps vehicle width. The 12c is more cab forward than most cars it seems. The visibility is awesome. It isn't steering rate. Even though the 458 has a more hyper steering design, the 12c feels better, more natural, as does the CGT. The CGT doesn't get the benefit of the semi active suspension (my term for it) nor the seating position. So it "feels" bigger. But this is only by a margin and on the road. I haven't taken the CGT on the track so this difference might disappear there. My prediction however is the CGT brakes will feel better. On the street already they feel more progressive than the 12c (my carbon brakes feel too grabby) and as others have also reported the 12c abs engages too early and results in a squirrely feeling under very hard braking on the track.

My comparison to the 458 on visceral feeling sums up to this: the 458 "creates" a visceral feeling: hyper steering, exhaust sound that starts at a certain rpm, throttle blips created by the computer whether in auto or manual mode. The CGT has a genuine visceral feel: race clutch, manual shifting, unadulterated V10 sound, throttle blips that *you* are responsible for.
 

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Great questions, I have the original tires, super sports are on their way. I haven't driven a scud or sc so I can't comment. The difference I found between the CGT and the 12c I think comes down to seating position and perhaps vehicle width. The 12c is more cab forward than most cars it seems. The visibility is awesome. It isn't steering rate. Even though the 458 has a more hyper steering design, the 12c feels better, more natural, as does the CGT. The CGT doesn't get the benefit of the semi active suspension (my term for it) nor the seating position. So it "feels" bigger. But this is only by a margin and on the road. I haven't taken the CGT on the track so this difference might disappear there. My prediction however is the CGT brakes will feel better. On the street already they feel more progressive than the 12c (my carbon brakes feel too grabby) and as others have also reported the 12c abs engages too early and results in a squirrely feeling under very hard braking on the track.

My comparison to the 458 on visceral feeling sums up to this: the 458 "creates" a visceral feeling: hyper steering, exhaust sound that starts at a certain rpm, throttle blips created by the computer whether in auto or manual mode. The CGT has a genuine visceral feel: race clutch, manual shifting, unadulterated V10 sound, throttle blips that *you* are responsible for.
Awesome, thanks for the reply. I would love to hear your comments if you get to drive the scud and CS at any point, in particular if you jump right out of the CGT and into one of those to compare back to back. I have plenty of seat time in scuds and think they got it just about perfect; all they needed to do was make the 458 the same but with a carbon chassis and different trim levels for comfort preference. I have not driven the CS but the basic consensus I have gleaned from many opinions from those who own both is that it is even more visceral than the scud, if not as fast. Ironically, by being less powerful, that may make it the ideal Ferrari that sees weekend road duty only, as you could spend a little more time with your right foot planted before being incarcerated. I desperately want to test drive one, but they are scarce around here. Neither CS or scud available with stick shift, however.

Re the 12C brakes, I believe they feel exactly as McLaren intended, but are biased towards the preferences of the Formula car test drivers. i.e. most racecars have very short pedal travel and most drivers, I think, prefer a very firm pedal. It's another aspect of the car that I find responds to more aggressive technique. Instead of trying to modulate pressure while trail braking deep to the apex, I find myself hitting the pedal hard initially, then also releasing pressure more abruptly coordinated with an aggressive turn in and getting back on throttle. I've found this leverages the car's systems and inherent strengths. It's much different than how I'm used to driving other cars, where you need to trail brake all the way to the apex, in some cases, to keep the nose tucking in. Whereas in most cars, you're using the brake very sensitively to manage weight transfer, in the 12C I find it is more a smash and grab. There's very little dive or roll, almost like you need to re-train your senses to know how much speed to scrub when you mash the brake. I was astonished the first time I took the car to a big track, particularly when a pro who was familiar with the car drove the first few recon laps. The car can handle a ton of corner entry speed on the big 4th gear sweepers, if you have the balls to get off the brakes early and carry it. Frighteningly so, really, without full safety gear. Lastly, does your 12C have Corsas? I never had early ABS intervention with my CCB with the std p0, but the Corsas definitely allow for higher brake energy. To me they work with the brake setup better, on road and on track.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I don't mind the brakes on the 12c as they do remind me of open wheel race cars. The CGT is similarly stiff. The difference is the 12c seems to get to 80% versus 60% in the same initial short distance. They get to 100% in about the same travel. Not quite those numbers but you get the idea.

That said, I probably do need to train myself to drive the 12c better. I raced GT3 Cup cars, so talk about trail braking to rotate!


Re the 12C brakes, I believe they feel exactly as McLaren intended, but are biased towards the preferences of the Formula car test drivers. i.e. most racecars have very short pedal travel and most drivers, I think, prefer a very firm pedal. It's another aspect of the car that I find responds to more aggressive technique. Instead of trying to modulate pressure while trail braking deep to the apex, I find myself hitting the pedal hard initially, then also releasing pressure more abruptly coordinated with an aggressive turn in and getting back on throttle. I've found this leverages the car's systems and inherent strengths. It's much different than how I'm used to driving other cars, where you need to trail brake all the way to the apex, in some cases, to keep the nose tucking in. Whereas in most cars, you're using the brake very sensitively to manage weight transfer, in the 12C I find it is more a smash and grab. There's very little dive or roll, almost like you need to re-train your senses to know how much speed to scrub when you mash the brake. I was astonished the first time I took the car to a big track, particularly when a pro who was familiar with the car drove the first few recon laps. The car can handle a ton of corner entry speed on the big 4th gear sweepers, if you have the balls to get off the brakes early and carry it. Frighteningly so, really, without full safety gear. Lastly, does your 12C have Corsas? I never had early ABS intervention with my CCB with the std p0, but the Corsas definitely allow for higher brake energy. To me they work with the brake setup better, on road track.
 

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Goplay - interesting to read your thoughts and seeing where we agree (a lot) but also disagree (a bit). 300 miles and counting on the cgt vs 6k on the 12c.

Fully agreed, the cgt is really a race car disguised as a road car and is unlike any other road car I have ever driven. I dislike using the word 'visceral' as it seems like a lazy automotive journalists cliche but there is not a better word that describes the gt. It is a car that demands and grabs your attention to drive, and not just due to the manual gearbox but the feedback and involvement one gets in return is pretty incredible. Build quality as you say is excellent and one does get the feeling the car was one of very few cars that was engineered and built to a standard rather than a price.

Interestingly enough my brother agrees about the 12c being a bit more agile/nimble than the cgt. I am not so sure I agree on that I have to admit and wonder if it is not just more a result of the wider front tyres on the road. On track I would be reasonably sure the cgt would be at least as agile as the 12c (will try that at some point hopefully this year). Steering wise I think the cgt has a definite advantage and being a rose jointed car (i think), it really should so interesting you think the 12c has the edge there. Brakes wise though I personally prefer the steels on the 12c as I find the cgt's a bit stiff but might just need more time to get used to the ceramics.

Where I disagree quite a bit more however is that the 458 feels anything like as visceral as the gt. If it does so, it is only in a very synthetic and superficial way IMO. The e-diff and other electronics have boosted performance/laptimes by a huge amount but have taken away an increasing amount of driver involvement. Ferrari have tried to recreate that involvement in their current cars by things like the super quick steering/very sensitive throttle and exhaust valve openings. This clearly works for a good number of people however and gives the car 'emotion' compared to the 12c but to me, it makes the 458 just seem too busy and dare I say fake. Don't get me wrong, the 458 is a brilliant car dynamically and the performance/road holding is terrific but just not for me.

6th - I have driven the scud a reasonable amount (never a CS though) albeit a few years ago and I liked it a good bit more than the 458, especially in terms of car balance and general feel. The cgt however is on a different level to the scud. On a pure driver involvement basis, I challenge anyone to drive a gt3 (rs or otherwise) back to back with the scud or 458 and not honestly tell me that the gt3 is the more engaging car. The cgt is not so much a supercar gt3 to my mind but a gt3 on crack, everything the gt3 is...and far more to boot....

All round, as I had said on another thread, having had the chance to drive the cgt and 12c back to back a few weeks ago, if anything it made me appreciate the 12c more in some respects. The 12c is not the last word in driver involvement or feedback, but the car feels mechanical enough and gives sufficient feedback such that I can and have driven 9+hours in a single day at varying speeds over all kinds of roads and have done so quite comfortably. It is a terrific road car and importantly for me, is not pretending to be something it is not.
 

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Great comments! I like reading comparisons/reviews by owners so much more than rags(CH being the exception).

The difference between the 12C brake pedal Vs. Porsche brakes is that you get a lot more feedback on the Porsche when u go from 30% to 60% to 90% application. There is a direct link between increasing pedal pressure and brake Tq rating. That link is noticeable in the Gt3/CGT brakes but no so much In the 12C.
 

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Awesome, thanks for the reply. I would love to hear your comments if you get to drive the scud and CS at any point, in particular if you jump right out of the CGT and into one of those to compare back to back. I have plenty of seat time in scuds and think they got it just about perfect; all they needed to do was make the 458 the same but with a carbon chassis and different trim levels for comfort preference. I have not driven the CS but the basic consensus I have gleaned from many opinions from those who own both is that it is even more visceral than the scud, if not as fast. Ironically, by being less powerful, that may make it the ideal Ferrari that sees weekend road duty only, as you could spend a little more time with your right foot planted before being incarcerated. I desperately want to test drive one, but they are scarce around here. Neither CS or scud available with stick shift, however.

Re the 12C brakes, I believe they feel exactly as McLaren intended, but are biased towards the preferences of the Formula car test drivers. i.e. most racecars have very short pedal travel and most drivers, I think, prefer a very firm pedal. It's another aspect of the car that I find responds to more aggressive technique. Instead of trying to modulate pressure while trail braking deep to the apex, I find myself hitting the pedal hard initially, then also releasing pressure more abruptly coordinated with an aggressive turn in and getting back on throttle. I've found this leverages the car's systems and inherent strengths. It's much different than how I'm used to driving other cars, where you need to trail brake all the way to the apex, in some cases, to keep the nose tucking in. Whereas in most cars, you're using the brake very sensitively to manage weight transfer, in the 12C I find it is more a smash and grab. There's very little dive or roll, almost like you need to re-train your senses to know how much speed to scrub when you mash the brake. I was astonished the first time I took the car to a big track, particularly when a pro who was familiar with the car drove the first few recon laps. The car can handle a ton of corner entry speed on the big 4th gear sweepers, if you have the balls to get off the brakes early and carry it. Frighteningly so, really, without full safety gear. Lastly, does your 12C have Corsas? I never had early ABS intervention with my CCB with the std p0, but the Corsas definitely allow for higher brake energy. To me they work with the brake setup better, on road and on track.
A race between a CS and a Scud looks like a race between a 458 and a 12C. The CS is not even in the same league as the Scuderia.
 

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I'm usually pretty good with my acronyms (at work sentences are often strung together with more of them than actual words!) but, just to confirm, is the "CS" being talked about a Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale?

Thanks,

-nh4.
 

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Awesome, thanks for the reply. I would love to hear your comments if you get to drive the scud and CS at any point, in particular if you jump right out of the CGT and into one of those to compare back to back. I have plenty of seat time in scuds and think they got it just about perfect; all they needed to do was make the 458 the same but with a carbon chassis and different trim levels for comfort preference. I have not driven the CS but the basic consensus I have gleaned from many opinions from those who own both is that it is even more visceral than the scud, if not as fast. Ironically, by being less powerful, that may make it the ideal Ferrari that sees weekend road duty only, as you could spend a little more time with your right foot planted before being incarcerated. I desperately want to test drive one, but they are scarce around here. Neither CS or scud available with stick shift, however.

Re the 12C brakes, I believe they feel exactly as McLaren intended, but are biased towards the preferences of the Formula car test drivers. i.e. most racecars have very short pedal travel and most drivers, I think, prefer a very firm pedal. It's another aspect of the car that I find responds to more aggressive technique. Instead of trying to modulate pressure while trail braking deep to the apex, I find myself hitting the pedal hard initially, then also releasing pressure more abruptly coordinated with an aggressive turn in and getting back on throttle. I've found this leverages the car's systems and inherent strengths. It's much different than how I'm used to driving other cars, where you need to trail brake all the way to the apex, in some cases, to keep the nose tucking in. Whereas in most cars, you're using the brake very sensitively to manage weight transfer, in the 12C I find it is more a smash and grab. There's very little dive or roll, almost like you need to re-train your senses to know how much speed to scrub when you mash the brake. I was astonished the first time I took the car to a big track, particularly when a pro who was familiar with the car drove the first few recon laps. The car can handle a ton of corner entry speed on the big 4th gear sweepers, if you have the balls to get off the brakes early and carry it. Frighteningly so, really, without full safety gear. Lastly, does your 12C have Corsas? I never had early ABS intervention with my CCB with the std p0, but the Corsas definitely allow for higher brake energy. To me they work with the brake setup better, on road and on track.
Well put on the brakes 6th.. You definitely just smash them when you need and then modulate into the apex.. Agree sentiments regarding f1 setup as with the aero that's exactly what they do .. Max max attack to begin with and then release pressure as the aero comes off.. Takes a bit if getting used to but find it massively effective.. This applies to steels as that is what I have.
 

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I'm usually pretty good with my acronyms (at work sentences are often strung together with more of them than actual words!) but, just to confirm, is the "CS" being talked about a Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale?

Thanks,

-nh4.
Yes it is.
 

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Well put on the brakes 6th.. You definitely just smash them when you need and then modulate into the apex.. Agree sentiments regarding f1 setup as with the aero that's exactly what they do .. Max max attack to begin with and then release pressure as the aero comes off.. Takes a bit if getting used to but find it massively effective.. This applies to steels as that is what I have.
6th,this is exactly what to do,not having my car at the ring,but being a passenger of McDc and Mikey on some fast flowing laps,its interesting to watch how the technic works this way,so much the better.Now I can understand why my tyres and not lasting but my pads are,im smooth on the track but need to be quicker by being more aggreasive with the brakes as they were intended :)
 

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Really enjoyed reading all the comments and insights here. The descriptions of the CGT remind me more than a bit of the F50. Overall not helpful at all as we are trying to reduce the number of cars in the garage and we may be creating another "need" here.:rolleyes:

I have to agree with the comments on the 430 Scuderia vs. the 458. On the Scud, it always felt involving and highly responsive. The 458 has always felt far more digital and remote. Almost hyperactive but not needing to be.
 
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