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MP4-12C laptime is nothing special. Disappointing actually for a car that was supposed to be a "game-changer".

McLaren was using Corsa tires, while 458 normal Pilot Sports, with similar tires 458 would be faster by quite a margin. And that 458 tested by Autocar doesn´t seem to be a ringer since it managed very slow acceleration results (not even fullfiling factory claims). Even so, 458 was still faster than MP4-12C at high speeds.

GT2 RS would be on top for sure, if tested by Autocar.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
MP4-12C laptime is nothing special. Disappointing actually for a car that was supposed to be a "game-changer".

McLaren was using Corsa tires, while 458 normal Pilot Sports, with similar tires 458 would be faster by quite a margin. And that 458 tested by Autocar doesn´t seem to be a ringer since it managed very slow acceleration results (not even fullfiling factory claims). Even so, 458 was still faster than MP4-12C at high speeds.

GT2 RS would be on top for sure, if tested by Autocar.
Well it's more special than 458 or are you claiming it's (458) laptime was not special. also don't speculate on tyres until proven.

Defo ringer 458 and the reason it was slower than claimed it that this 458 had to compete in all areas, not Ferrari supplying 1 car for Accel test, 1 car for track work (set up for specific track) and 1 car for road work, as they have done in the past.

This 458 had to do all 3 but suffered by it and anyone talking rubbish saying it was great on road and amazing on track are missing the fact that it most likely uses a different setting set up for that specific track and it knows where it is (on road or which track) by the GPS or haven't you heard that on a Nissan GTR Launch control will only work when the car knows it is at a track and not on the road. That's why Ferrari didn't have to touch the car from road to track.

I wouldn't mind so much but the 458 owners are not ever buying this car in the mag. If only they could use a customers car to test this but of course Ferrari won't allow this ever (as mentioned by Harris and others) so we will never see the truth :mad:
 

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Discussion Starter #4
MP4-12C laptime is nothing special. Disappointing actually for a car that was supposed to be a "game-changer".

GT2 RS would be on top for sure, if tested by Autocar.
ER are you crazy nothing special, it was damp (Autocar said it would go quicker on a dry track) and the only car faster "ever recorded" was a Bug Super Sport with twice the power 4WD and yet only "1 tenth" of a second quicker (opposed to the 3 tenths quicker the 12c was over the ringer 458)

Jeez man for car only £170K (bug veyron SS only a cool £1.67 million 10 time the price) yet only being 1-tenth slower than the current worlds "fastest and most expensive car is pretty damn. also consider the bug is 1 second faster to 60mph and 0-100 in almost 2 seconds over the mac, then the Mac 12c must have murdered it in the corners. Pretty good given that it was also a pre-production prototype

Dude seriously, SERIOUSLY you may want to reconsider you perspective on life if you think that isn't that great or a game changer plus the 12C you could live with as a DD:D
 

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I was at the Manchester launch tonight and managed to talk to Greg Levine who is Global Sales & Marketing Director for McLaren Automotive

http://media.mclarenautomotive.com/release/67/

Naturally, I asked him about the 458 comparison tests. You won't be surprised to know that he was incensed that they cheated and described to me 12 different mods on the 458 ringer that was used. Forget the tyres, that car was very seriously different to a customer car on engine parts, tune inc rev limit, aero and weight to name but a few.

I won't break a confidence and post all the details here but he did say that if I bought a 12C and it didn't beat a customer spec 458 round a track, he would give me my money back!!
 

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I bet they were incensed. I mean, you know that they have a 458 laid out on a table somewhere like a frog in an 8-grade bio class - they would only boast they way they did if they were pretty goddamn sure the 12c would kill it.

I mentioned "458 Scuderia" elsewhere, but in fact it may have been more like a "458 Challenge Stradale."

STILL - though - it's a street fight, not a math contest. Ferrari treated it as such and have reaped the benefit. Truly no one cares about excuses - they just have to stand at the finish line and ask "but did you win?"

Sucks. But that's the way it is.

The sucky side for Ferrari? The truth will out. By the end of the first year in the market, everyone will know that the 12c totally owns the 458. There'll be so much anecdotal evidence, so many different track times (with different representatives from both companies), that the data will show the difference. The shaky start we're having right now is the difficulty all very small-sample experiments fall afoul of...

RussellMills, Pete, 6thE (and others) - totally agree this is THE car. Why? Because Mclaren.
 

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I was at the Manchester launch tonight and managed to talk to Greg Levine who is Global Sales & Marketing Director for McLaren Automotive

http://media.mclarenautomotive.com/release/67/

Naturally, I asked him about the 458 comparison tests. You won't be surprised to know that he was incensed that they cheated and described to me 12 different mods on the 458 ringer that was used. Forget the tyres, that car was very seriously different to a customer car on engine parts, tune inc rev limit, aero and weight to name but a few.

I won't break a confidence and post all the details here but he did say that if I bought a 12C and it didn't beat a customer spec 458 round a track, he would give me my money back!!
christian martii,the european sales guy there,also said the same,he also said they have a ring time,which they are more than happy with,but before they release it,they want an in car video and more promo,they know they can do better because it rained for the last couple of minutes of the session,so we will have to wait!
A couple more stats of interest 125-0 mph 5.1 secs,and 200-0 mph 8 seconds
so there is a possible 0-125-0 just a fraction over 14 seconds
 

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I agree........I win is a win no matter how shady Ferrari went about getting it (no one can prove they cheated).......and that SUKS!..........Greg levine was pretty miffed about it in his response to the dealerships..........hard lesson to learn of the dog eat dog world of car reviews.........'fool me once shame on you (Ferrari), fool me twice shame on me'..........
I think McLaren will be ready for the NA/US market review
 

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ER are you crazy nothing special, it was damp (Autocar said it would go quicker on a dry track) and the only car faster "ever recorded" was a Bug Super Sport with twice the power 4WD and yet only "1 tenth" of a second quicker (opposed to the 3 tenths quicker the 12c was over the ringer 458)

Jeez man for car only £170K (bug veyron SS only a cool £1.67 million 10 time the price) yet only being 1-tenth slower than the current worlds "fastest and most expensive car is pretty damn. also consider the bug is 1 second faster to 60mph and 0-100 in almost 2 seconds over the mac, then the Mac 12c must have murdered it in the corners. Pretty good given that it was also a pre-production prototype

Dude seriously, SERIOUSLY you may want to reconsider you perspective on life if you think that isn't that great or a game changer plus the 12C you could live with as a DD:D
http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/mclaren_mp4-12c.html
 

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I agree........I win is a win no matter how shady Ferrari went about getting it (no one can prove they cheated).......and that SUKS!..........Greg levine was pretty miffed about it in his response to the dealerships..........hard lesson to learn of the dog eat dog world of car reviews.........'fool me once shame on you (Ferrari), fool me twice shame on me'..........
I think McLaren will be ready for the NA/US market review
Let's face it, both companies would have brought on their best cars and to think otherwise is fooling oneself. Even if F brought a ringer, that MP4 tested would not be a customer delivery spec either.
 

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I don't know, McLaren's Automotive European Director was adamant last night that while the Ferrari was definitely tuned up, McLaren's error had been that they'd been over confident and so been as hands off as possible - I don't think the McLaren in the tests is any better than customer cars will be.

Primarily speculation of course.
 

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I don't know, McLaren's Automotive European Director was adamant last night that while the Ferrari was definitely tuned up, McLaren's error had been that they'd been over confident and so been as hands off as possible - I don't think the McLaren in the tests is any better than customer cars will be.

Primarily speculation of course.
Hello Ross, I surely do hope it was overconfidence but let's face it, the McLaren had the Ferrari team worrying for a bit. Hence, they must have prepped it 300% to be not let off guard. So the car is probably a 458 Scuderia x 10. That is pure speculation and there will be no confirmation. Over here in Asia HK SG, dealers off to UK for meetings and I suspect it is for final confirmation on the latest media farce. Woking must give dealers across the world a uniform answers for those 200-300 questions thrown at them. They have no answer currently. However, from this forum, it seems like something is coming of it post TG's episode Sunday. I also hear some similar info. like IRIS for free for first batch and a statement like to maintain an orderly market and second hand values (rewarding early adopters), the car within first year if disliked will be offered a dealer buy back (no detail yet). Certainly, this is all important as this car is so new, so foreign, so ground breaking that they would want second hand market to hold up as well as the 458 if not more (unlike SLS or R8 variants... ).

Nonetheless, time between now and delivery of first customer car and they will do a lot of software tuning and optimization. The car is still a big seller but I agree with you that Ron Dennis was overconfident and caught off guard with Ferrari's test car. What's not good is that first impression counts and those videos stick for many more years. Fortunate or unfortunate, McLaren is still a hot seller no matter what and it is as good as if not better than a Ferrari in every aspect, they are just so different. One is a Gucci suit all flair, stylish and coolness while the other is a Saville Row bespoke understated elegant, hence nicknamed supercar in grey flannel.
 

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I don't know, McLaren's Automotive European Director was adamant last night that while the Ferrari was definitely tuned up, McLaren's error had been that they'd been over confident and so been as hands off as possible - I don't think the McLaren in the tests is any better than customer cars will be.

Primarily speculation of course.
So McLaren secretly disassembled the 458 test car since they know what parts were inside (engine parts especially) and how it was tuned ? As to McLaren being hands off their testcar (car magazine test) :



As to McLaren being slower than 458 at high speeds :

150-170mph in Autocar :
MP4-12C - 8,0s
458 Italia - 7,4s

Performance of that 458 was representative for customer cars (some customer cars even provided better acceleration), see VBox results of 458 owners on lambopower.

I still think that MP4-12C is an awesome car. For me, it is a pity that McLaren has overdone that hype with ridiculous claims (0-200km/h in 8,9s etc.) the car won´t achieve and providing journalist misleading info (Sutcliffe mentioning 7:00 N-ring time, claiming MP4-12C will be "significantly more accelerative than F1" all based on what he heard from the factory, EVO mentioning 0-300km/h in 24,5s..... which clearly isn´t the case judging by 3 instrumented tests so far). The suspension issue in Car magazine is also fishy. Based on what Stig has done later with a fixed car on Corsa tires, that earlier 1:30 laptime, slower than gallardo spyder, seems to be valid. (gallardo on sport tires, mclaren on normal tires)
 

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150-170mph, is that a new measurement?? Lol
I like the 458 but faster on a straight line it aint.. At any speed.
 

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150-170mph, is that a new measurement?? Lol
I like the 458 but faster on a straight line it aint.. At any speed.
Sure, not a benchmark measurement, just found it strange how the mclaren loses its wizardry at higher speeds. 0-300km/h time is well above 30s (way off those 24,5s that McLaren told EVO that has been reached in testing, and even way off official claim of 28s). At speeds above 200km/h it is only as fast as 458 (customer cars) and way slower than GT2 RS. As to who cares, german drivers (+ other european countries with benevolent police) sure do but mainly it is disappointing that McLaren is not fulfiling its performance claims.

Apart from 0-60 I haven´t seen a performance (acceleration and braking) claim that has been verified by independent testing. Despite McLaren sending teams of engineers to magazine testing to make sure everything is right.
 

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0-300 at above 30s in not impressive at all but where did we see that? That would mean that either drag or heat is slowing car or engine beyond certain time at wot. Given car was water charged ICs I can't see how it would take soooo long from 200-300.
Also did we see 0-100ml times tested not too far from the 8.9sec time announced?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Sure, not a benchmark measurement, just found it strange how the mclaren loses its wizardry at higher speeds. 0-300km/h time is well above 30s (way off those 24,5s that McLaren told EVO that has been reached in testing, and even way off official claim of 28s). At speeds above 200km/h it is only as fast as 458 (customer cars) and way slower than GT2 RS. As to who cares, german drivers (+ other european countries with benevolent police) sure do but mainly it is disappointing that McLaren is not fulfiling its performance claims.

Apart from 0-60 I haven´t seen a performance (acceleration and braking) claim that has been verified by independent testing. Despite McLaren sending teams of engineers to magazine testing to make sure everything is right.


Jeez dude 150 - 170 is in gear acel times not outright speed - what are you talking about (if you want I could draw you a picture to explain the difference). For Example On the Autocar site it states 458 0-150 16.2s and MP4-12c 1-150 in only 15.3 so the Mclaren is alread a second ahead so how does that make the 458 faster at higher speed - ????? really is that the best you have.

Oh and what about the teams of Ferrari engineers and the car they brought all the way from Italy - becasue they couldn't source a UK (yeah right).

Plus where is your data to say the 0-300kph is no way near 24.5s Autocar has not released these figures because they only release the figure 0-150 as they ran out of room so who is saying over 30s please re-produce your data :cool:
 

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0-300 at above 30s in not impressive at all but where did we see that? That would mean that either drag or heat is slowing car or engine beyond certain time at wot. Given car was water charged ICs I can't see how it would take soooo long from 200-300.
Also did we see 0-100ml times tested not too far from the 8.9sec time announced?
Well, McLaren tested by Autocar did 0-170mph (273km/h) in 23,3s. Knowing acceleration curves or just looking at autocar datapanel (160-170mph takes 5s) you don´t have to be a rocket scientist to know 0-300km/h time is well above 30s. If 160-170mph increment takes 5s, 170-180mph will take even more and 180-186 another cca 5s. That makes 0-300 in more than 33s (34-35s?).

Yes, acceleration of MP4-12C obviously weakens at high speed, that´s why I mentioned that 150-170mph increment.

As to 0-200km/h in 8,9s. Autocar did about 9,9s, EVO 9,6-9,7s. Not too close. Also GT2 RS did better 0-150mph on fully wet than McLaren on dry.


Jeez dude 150 - 170 is in gear acel times not outright speed - what are you talking about (if you want I could draw you a picture to explain the difference). For Example On the Autocar site it states 458 0-150 16.2s and MP4-12c 1-150 in only 15.3 so the Mclaren is alread a second ahead so how does that make the 458 faster at higher speed - ????? really is that the best you have.

Plus where is your data to say the 0-300kph is no way near 24.5s Autocar has not released these figures because they only release the figure 0-150 as they ran out of room so who is saying over 30s please re-produce your data
You clearly don´t have the autocar article (full printed version with all data) and therefore you are completely wrong. By high speed acceleration I mean 200-300km/h for instance. In Autocar, MP4-12C is slower from 120-170mph than 458 (one of the slowest examples ever tested, with customer cars being as fast or even faster).
 
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