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I'm starting a new thread because the existing one on the P1 Ring Time has fallen into the forum mire of generally well meaning people bantering with suspected trolls and ultimately turning on each other, which is a shame.

So, by all accounts we should know tomorrow, hot off the presses of the Dubai Auto Show, what McLaren is willing to say about their hypercar and a certain track in the woods of Germany. Evo, and a few members are saying they will not come out with a time. What I'd like to do with this thread is pull out the part of the conversation on the 'why' they might not state a time.

The easy conspiracy theory is that they didn't beat the 918. Maybe that's true. As an alternative to that, here's my conspiracy theory...

The three "it" cars of the moment are the P1, the 918, and the upcoming LaFerrari. The 918 set a blistering time of 6:57. if McLaren comes out and says "under 7 minutes" we have a dead heat between the P1 and the 918. Ferrari has a reputation of being less than honest when coming up with ring times, so they say whatever.

I think by not stating an exact time, McLaren pushes the lap time argument to the auto press... Give the cars to Top Gear, to Evo, to Road and Track, and anyone else with a following of car-loving eyeballs. Let them put the same driver in all three, and let them hash it out.

If you take the 12c vs. 458 face-offs, the 12c wins the performance argument nearly every time. If McLaren has the same confidence in the P1, do the same thing all over again.

The thing is, they don't need any of this to sell the P1, it's already sold! Sure, there may be a few cars available, but most of the run is spoken for. So what DO they need? They need to build the brand. Being confident that in real world tests the P1 will shine gets it coverage. Coverage gets it paid attention to. If the articles and the TV shows, and the commentary follow the Top Gear article, or the Evo article then the P1 ends up a halo car with a media halo glowing over the top of it.

Ferrari has the branding, marketing, and sway in the game as it exists. Porsche are the ultimate bean counters, but they make a hell of a car for those beans! So there are two masters of their respective games. Mclaren's best bet to get invited to the party is bring the fight to the streets. Put it to the press, put it to the owners, put it in front of people and dazzle them. In other words, their best tactic may be to try to change the rules...

Thoughts? Please respect that I'm asking for real feedback, not another flame war.

-nh4.
 

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I think McLaren need to post a sub-7 time, for their brand, for the publicity and for their owners. It doesn't have to beat the 918 time, just sub-7 would be fine by me. IMHO. Backing out looks bad.
 

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I think McLaren is going to be very measured in which media outlets are allowed to drive the car, at least for the first little while. Already Harris, Tiff and some others are complaining on Twitter that Jay Leno has driven it but they have not been invited. McLaren is learning from Ferrari. Almost too much for my liking, but hey, this is big boy stakes now.
 

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Interesting Nh4, in my opinion, I think McLaren are going full throttle ahead, whatever their plans may be they are nailing the marketing point of things - For the brand, not just P1 in particular, bearing in mind they are still a young brand to venture into the 'modern' world of performance cars. Not saying the F1 is an ancient old forgotten masterpiece, there has been nothing bar the 12C and the P1 in that 20 year void.

I think P13 will be a major player to completing the trio as far as the brand is concerned at the moment, the P12 programme is pretty much done, as with every other automakers, plans for their next cars are probably far into the drawing board, so in my opinion I think they are doing a brilliant job of getting the norm to recognise what McLaren is, and that they are not just about F1 racing. There is a thread on this forum somewhere with normal people unable to recognise a 12c, however take a red sportscar with a prancing horse logo, everyone knows its a Ferrari, they are instantly recognisable.

McLaren automotive are a small force, they are indeed taking the P1 to the press and owners - that is evident. In the world of the internet, P1 pops up quite often, much more so than the other two in my opinion.

I am not sure entirely where the P1 will go from now, its made its dent into the Hybrid hypercar trio with good success.
 

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I just have one problem with this all - Ron Dennis and his statements. If he hadn't spoiled us with his claims, it would've been fine by me. If he promised a car that will be faster than anything, then he should prove it.
 

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I feel they need to post their ring time! If I had the funds I would buy the p1 even if it didn't beat the 918 time. So for now it's either the 12c or the 458 for me. Been told that the refresh 12c will be 675hp with p1 and p13 styling! Ron should have said they want the p1 to be one of the best driving cars ever made! But Mclaren have changed the hypercar market I believe. I don't care what the top speed of my vehicle is I want it to handle like a slot car around a track and back country driving roads. FWIW I believe the p1 will or could beat the 918 time it as some close specs with the zonda r. So hopefully tuesday they give a time!!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I think McLaren is going to be very measured in which media outlets are allowed to drive the car, at least for the first little while. Already Harris, Tiff and some others are complaining on Twitter that Jay Leno has driven it but they have not been invited. McLaren is learning from Ferrari. Almost too much for my liking, but hey, this is big boy stakes now.
I think having Jay Leno drive it first was a good move. He does the car stuff because he loves it, not because he needs a paycheck. Granted, knowing Jay was a huge F1 and 12c fan, McLaren probably had a good idea the sort of review they'd get :D

I would think that with any really limited Production run car there would be a line, and a wait to try it out. Jay has the reputation, at least I think he does, do be blunt and honest with his reviews. Top Gear UK has the eyeballs.

I think P13 will be a major player to completing the trio as far as the brand is concerned at the moment, the P12 programme is pretty much done, as with every other automakers, plans for their next cars are probably far into the drawing board,
I agree, and this is part of what got me on the path I started down with my original post. To build the McLaren brand, they need exposure, and they need to be seen as legit when stepping up to Ferrari and Porsche. The P13 will pull a lot from the P1 in terms of looks, and (hopefully) fancy engineering trickery. Obviously there will be a disparity between what a P1 can do and what a P13 will be able to do, but at 15% of the P1's price, that's OK! If the P1 become the aspiration, the P13 can become the reality.

I just have one problem with this all - Ron Dennis and his statements. If he hadn't spoiled us with his claims, it would've been fine by me. If he promised a car that will be faster than anything, then he should prove it.
I agree there may have been some mis-steps in what was said a few times, but overall, I think those are not large enough to impact the brand. In the case of 'Ring time, I thought he had said the "under 7 minute" remark. If he said something more aggressive than that, I'm not aware of it. (As a disclaimer though, I always take executive comments with a grain of salt, regardless of industry!).

Been told that the refresh 12c will be 675hp with p1 and p13 styling!
The refresh is multiple years away. There are a few threads talking about a "12C-S" over in the 12c section of the site coming out next year to go against the 458 Speciale, But that will likely look a lot like the current 12c with a bit of extra aero.

So hopefully tuesday they give a time!!
I hope they do as well, but, as I said in my opening post, I can justify it to myself why they might not. :D
 

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If I was buying a P1 it would be about how it drives on the track.....for me.....not some talented pro driver but I would be influenced if they said it was a so so or a dog.

So the RingTime debate influences the hairy chest gold medallion brigade who are , none the less, important to sales And the braggers, mine is faster than yours brigade, who would never get themselves timed on track.

But , silly to me, I do want the P1 to be the best. Silly because I like Porkers and Fezzers.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
If I was buying a P1 it would be about how it drives on the track.....for me.....not some talented pro driver but I would be influenced if they said it was a so so or a dog.
I agree, and I think that might be part of the plan... They set out for under 7 minutes, if they say that's what they did tomorrow in Dubai, great! Let the fervor die down, and then get a P1 over to whomever wants to do a battle between it, a 918, and a LaFa. Those reviews are a lot more personal for the reader or watcher than a posted number around the 'Ring.

So the RingTime debate influences the hairy chest gold medallion brigade who are , none the less, important to sales And the braggers, mine is faster than yours brigade, who would never get themselves timed on track.
I was at a car show at a Ferrari dealership last summer and there was a lot of that demographic represented there.

I like Ferrari and Porsche as well, it's just I like McLaren better. :D

-nh4
 

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If I was buying a P1 it would be about how it drives on the track.....for me.....not some talented pro driver but I would be influenced if they said it was a so so or a dog.

So the RingTime debate influences the hairy chest gold medallion brigade who are , none the less, important to sales And the braggers, mine is faster than yours brigade, who would never get themselves timed on track.

But , silly to me, I do want the P1 to be the best. Silly because I like Porkers and Fezzers.
You just beat me to it !!
I was thinking the same thing: Who would buy a car based on how some professional test driver manages to negotiate a certain test track ??
McLaren should concentrate it's efforts and building a bigger sales network. With a volume car like the P13 ..... You are going to find it very rough going trying convince a buyer, in that price range, to have to ship his car on a flatbed to some distant dealership everytime it needs minor servicing. Maybe some folks would put up with that, but anyone I've asked said: "No way!":rolleyes:.
 

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Interesting that 'distribution' and dealer network practicality for the P13. There could be many innovative solutions but I will let 6th explain the strategic marketing one:D
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Limey / RIC,

I'm in the category of too far from my nearest dealer for ownership to really be practical. I've talked to them (Miller in CT) and provided the car is under warranty, they'll come pick it up and drop it off with no additional charge. That might be OK for service, but if I have a recall, some light that says there's a problem, or any other more-than-once-every-10k-miles reason for the car to go in, I don't want to be hostage to a trucking schedule to get my car in or back.

I do think the increased presence of a larger dealer network does also help the brand. With the mothership (McLaren the conglomerate) breaking even, it would seem to make it more feasible to dump more money into the Automotive brand, particularly since they likely stand to make a larger % profit on each P13 vs. P1 or 12c.

But now I've started down the path of derailing my own thread! Damn it, that was easy! :D

-nh4.
 

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Interesting that 'distribution' and dealer network practicality for the P13. There could be many innovative solutions but I will let 6th explain the strategic marketing one:D
The interesting thing for me RIC is that with every time you drive your car you get closer to the ability of a pro driver. If you take your 12c to the ring again next year say or indeed do the PDC then the convergence will be more rapid... so ultimately it could (should?) Matter what a pro driver does in the car as it's the ultimate expression of what you could be even if you believe that you personally would fall short of that. That's why I think it is relevant what the pro driver does. More succinctly you want to believe deep down it's the car that's the limiting factor not you .. I.e you want to drive the best available even if 'one' knows that the limits of the car are way beyond 'ones' own..

As to what the marketing strategy is I will admit to being bemused. Arguably it shouldn't matter to me at all as I had my money down before the sheet was removed in Paris ... for me though you do have to perform on statements made. I believe I was one of very few who realised what they were trying to tell us with 'that slide' in the presentation in Geneva and I will admit to probably being mostly ignorant of what it would take to perform at that level.. so I was going ahead whatever that slide said, but what about someone who's mind was made up because of that number?

Then we have all the statements on the stand which are confusing at best. Perhaps McLaren have decided not to publish (if indeed that is the case) as the production is all but sold so why is it relevant. The speculation has kept the car in the public eye but I always understood a time would be released as it seems did most casual observers so to not publish becomes negative. Perhaps they know whatever number they post will be bettered by 'rarri or Porsche or whoever. Leave it to the press to work it out? Don't think so. Tomorrow I think if anything will be an announcement of we beat our objective and that's it, if we even get that .. here's hoping as I would just love to see what that video looks like.
 

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The interesting thing for me RIC is that with every time you drive your car you get closer to the ability of a pro driver. If you take your 12c to the ring again next year say or indeed do the PDC then the convergence will be more rapid... so ultimately it could (should?) Matter what a pro driver does in the car as it's the ultimate expression of what you could be even if you believe that you personally would fall short of that. That's why I think it is relevant what the pro driver does. More succinctly you want to believe deep down it's the car that's the limiting factor not you .. I.e you want to drive the best available even if 'one' knows that the limits of the car are way beyond 'ones' own..

As to what the marketing strategy is I will admit to being bemused. Arguably it shouldn't matter to me at all as I had my money down before the sheet was removed in Paris ... for me though you do have to perform on statements made. I believe I was one of very few who realised what they were trying to tell us with 'that slide' in the presentation in Geneva and I will admit to probably being mostly ignorant of what it would take to perform at that level.. so I was going ahead whatever that slide said, but what about someone who's mind was made up because of that number?

Then we have all the statements on the stand which are confusing at best. Perhaps McLaren have decided not to publish (if indeed that is the case) as the production is all but sold so why is it relevant. The speculation has kept the car in the public eye but I always understood a time would be released as it seems did most casual observers so to not publish becomes negative. Perhaps they know whatever number they post will be bettered by 'rarri or Porsche or whoever. Leave it to the press to work it out? Don't think so. Tomorrow I think if anything will be an announcement of we beat our objective and that's it, if we even get that .. here's hoping as I would just love to see what that video looks like.
You've almost got me convinced, mikey, but my lingering question is - do you believe it is tactically wise to release a lap time when Ferrari could literally tell Top Gear and the rest of the media the very next day that they have done it faster? You know that millions of people will believe whatever Ferrari says. Also, Porsche and Ferrari both have deeper pockets to keep playing more rounds of this game, in terms of a) revising the car, b) setting up additional Ring attempts, and c) pushing the information out to millions through media channels. McLaren is definitely the player at the table with the shortest stack; they can't outspend the other two. Again, the world is already convinced that the LaF is not only more powerful, but LIGHTER and MORE ACCELERATIVE than the P1, just because Ferrari says so. Do you believe it? I don't, necessarily.

p.s. Go Chris Go! :)
 

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To me, from afar, I just look at the body of "work"...

- a reknowned Formula One motorsports team which exudes virtue/excellence in engineering & technology, now making high-performance roadcars

- the F1 was a class amongst itself for 2+ generations of hypercars; the 12C established itself a notch (or two) above any/all current contemporaries

- the P1 being a (relatively) lightweight platform w/ 900+ hp, electric-assist to combat boost-lag, extreme downforce capability, designed & engineered w/ track-performance in mind

- a simulator time of 6m33s

- involvement of proficent test-drivers experienced w/ the platform, at the N'Ring

- a (presumably) pre-optimization run a month or so ago

.
.
.

Easy (for me) to conclude a sub-7 time. Whether it's 6'30s or 6'40s? Who knows. Point-being, very plausible (to me)...
 

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Mikey. Understand but somehow I want to believe you ordered the car because you judged it will be one of, if not the one, great drivers cars of modern times. And you enjoy driving drivers cars!

All views of why the Ring time is held back are valid until a Ring time is claimed!
 

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Mikey. Understand but somehow I want to believe you ordered the car because you judged it will be one of, if not the one, great drivers cars of modern times. And you enjoy driving drivers cars!

All views of why the Ring time is held back are valid until a Ring time is claimed!
Exactly. That's exactly why I did and indeed why we ordered the 12c

The PR is beyond me.... and I think I should say thankfully.
 

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Most of you who have bought McLaren's really understand the philosophy of the brand, from those who have contributed on this forum anyway, I don't see many of you as the 'show off' type of people who buy because of the name, given that McLaren isn't widely and consciously known compared to its rivals, however I know some of you are dissapointed with no time, but again it just proves that the owners here look far beyond facts and figures, some P1's are probably collectables, but the other I think, have grasped a market of enthusiasts who actually want to drive the car as much as they can.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
RIC / Michael -- It seems like what you guys are saying is that a 'Ring time, particularly one that is 10+ seconds quicker than the 918, would be a wonderful feather in the cap for the P1, but in no way makes for any second guessing on the decision to purchase. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but that's how I read it, and sort of what I was getting at with my initial post. I would hope that would be true for most of the folks getting a P1. no matter the time around the 'Ring, it will be a phenomenal ride.

Drifter -- I think what you're getting at plays into the expansion of the brand conversation. McLaren's racing history, and the reputation of the F1 certainly meant they would raise some eyebrows saying they were coming back to road cars. However, McLaren need to move the brand, really define the brand, beyond its racing heritage to get access to potential buyers that aren't followers of the racing side of the house. To this end the 12c is already out there besting the 458 in nearly every measurable way less noise and feel at slow speed. I think the P1 needs to follow suit, and be out there for the media, for people to see and read about in articles like the ones you posted from Top Gear and Evo. As I said above, if the P1 is what people aspire to, then the P13 becomes what they can attain.

-nh4.
 

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They should release the time... if it's WAY under the time of the 918.
RD, with his big mouth, put Mclaren in a bind with statements like "It's going to be sub 7:00, it's going to break all the records", "fastest car in the world", "we're very confident no one is going to come anywhere near the performance". These are direct quotes from the Geneva show. He also said it will be faster than "what's come before and what will come after".
What was he thinking???? He must have know he would be put to task.
Now it's time to put up or retract his statements. It's about credibility, not how fast the car can go around the ring. Mclaren can easily turn into Ferrari with headline-grabbing statements that can't be supported.
I would much rather go for the Porsche "under promise and over deliver" way of doing business.
 
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