well that plan made a lot more sense when they were running the EU banking sector ...
McLaren Financial Results 2022
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I have no idea if it is for sale, although in my experience, everything has a price.What makes you (@roundincircles) think McLaren is for sale - the current Bahraini owners have deep pockets and want to own a very visible (with an F1 presence) automotive company.
And the learning experience/cost for developing a completely new architecture vehicle introduction has been paid for twice - McLaren is now a ‘seasoned’ company.
I was responding more to previous posts about selling the company to Global players. The value is in the Brand imv. Clearly, the financial performance has no basis for value, especially as development costs of £800m plus are on the balance sheet. Each year millions are invested to keep things tickety-boo.
The previous management regime did its best to destroy the company ( although it's not clear what part the shareholders played). The new regime seems to be better focused on building a solid business.
Yes. At this time it appears that much of the positive value in the McLaren Group is somewhat hidden within McLaren Racing. ‘Racing’ with sponsors and F1 / IndyCar participation seem to be able to generate enough revenue to sustain and develop their operation. Zak Brown is doing well for McLaren riding on the increasing valuations of F1 teams, as Liberty Media expands worldwide interest in F1 sporting entertainment.I have no idea if it is for sale, although in my experience, everything has a price.
I was responding more to previous posts about selling the company to Global players. The value is in the Brand imv. Clearly, the financial performance has no basis for value, especially as development costs of £800m plus are on the balance sheet. Each year millions are invested to keep things tickety-boo.
The previous management regime did its best to destroy the company ( although it's not clear what part the shareholders played). The new regime seems to be better focused on building a solid business.
As posted in another thread (V8 thread): "McLaren will position itself in the future (with its two-seater rear-/mid-engined cars) mainly in the market segment above today's 720S, i.e. clearely above a 296 GTB. Under this perspective, a V6 doesn't make sense for image reasons, even if this technology basically has its justification.Wow that's pretty harsh on the Artura. I think it's way too early to put a fork in it. Expecting the car to launch with absolutely zero issues, when it's a complete 1.0 car, IMO, seems a bit unrealistic. Now that a bunch of cars are out, I don't expect the worst of the problems to be settled for around 6 months at best, to a year at worst. But somewhere around there, all the early teething problems should be fixed (hopefully most with software).
Anyway, you may be right, but I certainly hope youre wrong and folks are a touch more patient.
MaLaren will still be represented in the lower segment, but presumably no longer with a two-seater rear-/mid-engined sports car, in which case it may be a little less demanding drive technology, because with such a "fun vehicle" the vehicle concept itself is more relevant than the number of cylinders in the drive.
The few individual McLaren products will definitely have to differentiate themselves more clearly from one another in the future. this applies to the drive unit as well as the vehicle concept. I think McLaren has understood and is positioning itself correctly for the future.
From this point of view, I'm sticking to my assumption: McLaren will mainly focus on the 720S successor and position it significantly higher again. For the lower price segment there will be no successor to the Artura, which will be replaced by a completely new vehicle concept."
From that point of view, I stand by my statement, McLaren has screwed up across the board with the Artura, McLaren can take it off the market as quickly as possible and replace it with something completely different. This car will never get rid of its "almost coffin nail" image and only generate costs for McLaren. At best, it's only good as a test vehicle to make the new technology viable for the successor.
Well I had one for 2 days and found it fantastic in all aspects. Well thought out, super comfortable and EV to ICE worked very well etc tec. IMO its too cheap for what it is. Will get the LT version when its available.From that point of view, I stand by my statement, McLaren has screwed up across the board with the Artura, McLaren can take it off the market as quickly as possible and replace it with something completely different. This car will never get rid of its "almost coffin nail" image and only generate costs for McLaren. At best, it's only good as a test vehicle to make the new technology viable for the successor.
so in a nutshell I dont agree ..
I'm happy for you, of course, that's out of the question. But when I think about the future of McLaren, I have to say that the Artura is a debacle. As you wrote yourself: they should charge much more for this car, but they cannot.Well I had one for 2 days and found it fantastic in all aspects. Well thought out, super comfortable and EV to ICE worked very well etc tec. IMO its too cheap for what it is. Will get the LT version when its available.
so in a nutshell I dont agree ..
I just read Aston Martin went bankrupt 7 times so McLaren have a while to go. I would not write them off nor would I underestimate them as an acquisition for a larger player such as BMW or any of the Chinese players.I'm happy for you, of course, that's out of the question. But when I think about the future of McLaren, I have to say that the Artura is a debacle. As you wrote yourself: they should charge much more for this car, but they cannot.
But while we follow McLaren daily a lot of potential buyers don't and they don't care much about the history of Artura i.e. they either like the car or they don't. My dealer has quite a few coming through and they seem to move quickly.
I have more faith in Mclaren today than I have for quite a while
We're on the same page there. I like McLaren and when I hear what plans they are developing for the next few years, I am also very confident. But the Artura adventure has made me extremely angry. I saw the car in the spring of 2021 and was thrilled. What happened afterwards I consider to be unprofessional and unnecessary (and no, I don't accept Covid as an excuse for anything). In this respect, McLaren has disappointed me extremely. But I am and remain a huge fan of this brand. I have two super cars from McLaren, and they are perfect. McLaren can build cars, but the quality fluctuations are still far too big. Too often, dealers have to sort out shortcomings of McLaren, thus, overall customer satisfaction is too often dependent on the particular dealer.I just read Aston Martin went bankrupt 7 times so McLaren have a while to go. I would not write them off nor would I underestimate them as an acquisition for a larger player such as BMW or any of the Chinese players.
But while we follow McLaren daily a lot of potential buyers don't and they don't care much about the history of Artura i.e. they either like the car or they don't. My dealer has quite a few coming through and they seem to move quickly.
I have more faith in Mclaren today than I have for quite a while
I think that's the main problem. I think the 570s experiment proved that the 3 vehicle tiers n one common platform @roundincircles mentions was not the right move. Or at least having them at the Sports - Super - Hyper was wrong. Maybe if it was at the Super - SuperSports (SF90/Aventador) - Hyper it would be sustainableWell I had one for 2 days and found it fantastic in all aspects. Well thought out, super comfortable and EV to ICE worked very well etc tec. IMO its too cheap for what it is. Will get the LT version when its available.
so in a nutshell I dont agree ..
Perhaps they could codevelop or modify an existing platform with another manufacturer (but not badge engineering like the Aston Smart Car). Would need to be priced at least $100k to not devalue brand. Would anyone pay $100k for a GR86 or Miata with a carbon firewall and floorpan and a hotter engine? Or GMA's cancelled iStream project with Yamaha.
Well they kind of were already doing that with outsourcing the building of the tubs to Mubea Carbotech in Austria. Still a pretty high labor rate. Not sure what was the point of building a whole new facility in the UK. They could be like many bike manufacturers and outsource to Eastern Europe or Taiwan but not so how good an idea that is these days.What’s the need for the cars to be assembled in u.k. ? It’s probably the highest labor rate anywhere .
significant intangibles capitalized . Heavy lifting of research and development has already hit the cash flow for future cars.
Change in accounting policy with regards to how/when to amortize the intangibles . Before it was to amortize it with every car built and now it is to be amortized over the expected product run on a straight line basis . This change caused approximately 36 million pounds to be amortized in 2022 vs the old method.
new management sort of falling on the sword from an accounting point of view to get a clean slate and clean up financials from previous management .
on another note ; arturas to be built for the remainder of this decade …
Pretty sure there are some significant intangible value for the consumer in the motorsport/techy image of it being assembled in the UK. Part of the reason that Geely is trying so hard to acquire Aston is because Aston has that romantic British image which some of the leadership grew up with.
Little to no intrinsic value on sales of where the cars are built…. Zip, zilch, nada.
Let mclaren do a survey among owners in markets that count (USA ) and see what they say and then re-ask the question of whether anyone cares if it would cause the cars to be cheaper …
hardly anyone in USA know who the shareholders are , who the ceo is , who the engineers or designers are and they don’t care . The typical buyer/owner isn’t the jock sniffer type .
Let mclaren do a survey among owners in markets that count (USA ) and see what they say and then re-ask the question of whether anyone cares if it would cause the cars to be cheaper …
hardly anyone in USA know who the shareholders are , who the ceo is , who the engineers or designers are and they don’t care . The typical buyer/owner isn’t the jock sniffer type .
Maybe as I get older I get more resilientWe're on the same page there. I like McLaren and when I hear what plans they are developing for the next few years, I am also very confident. But the Artura adventure has made me extremely angry. I saw the car in the spring of 2021 and was thrilled. What happened afterwards I consider to be unprofessional and unnecessary (and no, I don't accept Covid as an excuse for anything). In this respect, McLaren has disappointed me extremely. But I am and remain a huge fan of this brand. I have two super cars from McLaren, and they are perfect. McLaren can build cars, but the quality fluctuations are still far too big. Too often, dealers have to sort out shortcomings of McLaren, thus, overall customer satisfaction is too often dependent on the particular dealer.
. Mercedes Project One was a [email protected]*k of EPIC proportions and coming from a well respected brand with deep pockets, Ferrari Roma software and UI is a monumental failure and simply does not work as intended etc etc. McLaren being a approx. 12 yo company has made failures and hopefully learnt from them. Like you, I really like the brand and its engineering and obsession with weight. After 4 McLarens (which BTW gave me no more trouble than Ferrari, Lambo or Porsche), I hope to buy more!!!
We don't need Elon owning McLaren. He does not know how to produce reliable vehicles. I own an X Plaid and....damn!Man they need to clean up the artura bugs so it starts to win hearts and minds and get the 750 perfect and grit it out there. They need a positive streak to just get above water and start building some buffer.
That said it’s crazy apple, or Tesla doesn’t buy them with some couch money. Mclaren really is the world leader in carbon fiber vehicles by far, and with real backing that could do soooooo much for the auto industry. I bet just going to carbon tubs alone would reduce US auto death rate rate from 35000 a year down to less than 10000. It’s a huge selling point. Particularly if you make an suv with a carbon cage.
I personally do not consider buying any sports car that doesn’t have a carbon fiber frame.
Apple and Tesla could start producing lighter and way safer cars, and Mclaren could super help there. Lightness for EV cars also helps with weight and range. And they could still hold up Mclaren as a halo brand. It’s kind of shocking no one there sees the value when Mclaren can be had so cheaply. It’s totally a peanut butter meets chocolate thing imo.
I know early versions of teslas can be not great. Elon acknowledged this particularly through his build up of the model 3 line, ie production hell. My understanding is that once you get to year 3 of production of a. Model they are quite reliable and better quality. Franky this also holds for corvettes and many other makes. It’s one reason I’m waiting for the 2nd model year of the 750.We don't need Elon owning McLaren. He does not know how to produce reliable vehicles. I own an X Plaid and....damn!
That said, do you mind sharing some of the problems with your plaid. I’m in line for a cyber truck and hoping to get a 2nd model year there too.
Lastly, I would think a smart moneybags partner would give Mclaren enough money to ramp up to do their own thing and not necessarily run things. Then again, it would be nice for mclaren to benefit from the Audi effect Lamborghini benefited from, where consistency and quality improved, I would guess, with Audi providing techniques to improve things. One thing Tesla could help on are electronics and software, I would think.
I had/have three teslas. A 2018 model x p100d (I just sold with 80k miles), and a new Tesla model 3 LR and and Model Y LR—which I bought just before the discounts 🤬I know early versions of teslas can be not great. Elon acknowledged this particularly through his build up of the model 3 line, ie production hell. My understanding is that once you get to year 3 of production of a. Model they are quite reliable and better quality. Franky this also holds for corvettes and many other makes. It’s one reason I’m waiting for the 2nd model year of the 750.
That said, do you mind sharing some of the problems with your plaid. I’m in line for a cyber truck and hoping to get a 2nd model year there too.
Lastly, I would think a smart moneybags partner would give Mclaren enough money to ramp up to do their own thing and not necessarily run things. Then again, it would be nice for mclaren to benefit from the Audi effect Lamborghini benefited from, where consistency and quality improved, I would guess, with Audi providing techniques to improve things. One thing Tesla could help on are electronics and software, I would think.
Build quality is mediocre and reliability is average, but nothing to write home about. The
Model x ate half shafts regularly and I had
A battery replacement, other issues where small
And inconsequential. all 3 were delivered with ill fitting and/or defective interior trim.
The model 3 also has some wiring behind the dash that wasn’t secured properly and a drivers side window that was hilariously misaligned. All of these issues where addressed under warranty. The user interface, technology, performance, efficiency and infrastructure are why you buy a Tesla… but reliability, Fit and finish, and build quality are about 20 years behind most modern cars.
I'm on my 3rd Tesla over here in the UK - had a 2017 Model S, then a 2020 S Performance, and my Model Y is now almost a year old. My experience is that the build quality, fit and finish of the Y is vastly superior to both of the Model S's I had. Not experienced a single problem with the Y so far. Of course my Y was built in China, but I wouldn't really argue that that's why it's better. It's clear the company has evolved and the design of the Y is much more resolved with far greater attention to detail.I had/have three teslas. A 2018 model x p100d (I just sold with 80k miles), and a new Tesla model 3 LR and and Model Y LR—which I bought just before the discounts 🤬
Build quality is mediocre and reliability is average, but nothing to write home about. The
Model x ate half shafts regularly and I had
A battery replacement, other issues where small
And inconsequential. all 3 were delivered with ill fitting and/or defective interior trim.
The model 3 also has some wiring behind the dash that wasn’t secured properly and a drivers side window that was hilariously misaligned. All of these issues where addressed under warranty. The user interface, technology, performance, efficiency and infrastructure are why you buy a Tesla… but reliability, Fit and finish, and build quality are about 20 years behind most modern cars.
I wish I could say the same. The dash arrived horribly warped on the model Y and the headliner was completely botched in place with spots where Material was simply missing. It amazed me that they even released it from the factory. I asked the service guy about what the heck was going on because I had just picked up the model 3 a few weeks earlier and, among other things, there was a giant gap in the drivers window… so big you could stick your finger between the side of the window and frame. The drivers door speaker grill was also not secured and the trunk lining top popped off shortly after delivery.
He pretty much he admitted that the customer is really the final QC check.
On both cars there are also areas where the paint is heavy, like it pooled while curing.
This in addition to the other stuff I mentioned.
I love teslas, but it’s like buying a McLaren, it’s better to go in having an appreciation for the brands strengths and weaknesses. Tesla does many things exceptionally well, but fit and finish and build quality are not among them in my experience.
He pretty much he admitted that the customer is really the final QC check.
On both cars there are also areas where the paint is heavy, like it pooled while curing.
This in addition to the other stuff I mentioned.
I love teslas, but it’s like buying a McLaren, it’s better to go in having an appreciation for the brands strengths and weaknesses. Tesla does many things exceptionally well, but fit and finish and build quality are not among them in my experience.
Note to self, cancel model s order.
I see a lot of choppiness on what people experience in quality for teslas. Weirdly familiar.
That said a lot of correlation to cars made on a new production line or new models. Of course that’s not all cases, so there are still gaps and it sounds like they really could use a quality guru. Also sounds familiar.
For what it’s worth, buddy bought a long range model when they lowered prices. He’s a long time Honda fan. Says it’s basically Honda quality. No issues. But his model 3 came from Fremont, older manufacturing line with an older more established model.
That said a lot of correlation to cars made on a new production line or new models. Of course that’s not all cases, so there are still gaps and it sounds like they really could use a quality guru. Also sounds familiar.
For what it’s worth, buddy bought a long range model when they lowered prices. He’s a long time Honda fan. Says it’s basically Honda quality. No issues. But his model 3 came from Fremont, older manufacturing line with an older more established model.
Fwiw. None of my issues would prevent me from buying a Tesla again. They are wonderful cars and once you get the initial QC stuff taken care of they are generally great. They do so many things so very very well.
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