McLaren Financial Results 2022

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eMcL

Discussion Starter · 22 d ago

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https://investors.mclaren.com/sites/mclaren-ir/files/2023-05/mhl-audited-annual-report-and-financial-statements-2022.pdf

https://investors.mclaren.com/sites/mclaren-ir/files/2023-05/mhl-condensed-financial-statements-2022.pdf

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ZombiePhysicist

· #21 · 22 d ago

alexceres said:
Tesla doesn’t care about driving experience. There are a ton of Detroit engineers who could fix their ass chassis dynamics, braking and steering to at least be like Chevy quality level. Tesla has conspicuously chosen to focus on EV range, manufacturing cost, volume, and their drag race gimmicks. Their goal is for the driver to be replaced by a robot. Which they have said.

McLaren doesn’t help with that and their goals are diametrically opposed. Not a good acquisition. Plus if Elon owned McLaren he’d twitter it. Elon buying McLaren is the most probable way I buy a Lambo.

Apple doesn’t need McLaren either. The best parts of McLaren would just be a distraction.

I honestly don’t know who buys McLaren without ruining it. BMW ? Audi ? Geely ?
Maybe a middle eastern sovereign wealth fund … oh wait. That’s what happened.

We couldn't disagree more. He does care. That you do not like his product doesnt mean he doesnt care. And they are not opposed. That you cannot see the synergies is fair enough, but they are there. As with most things, just depends on how things get done.

Twitter is zillion times better than pre Eolon an since I'm positive you'll disagree, we can agree to disagree.

As always, YMMV.

Reactions: 1

invisiblewave

· #22 · 22 d ago

ZombiePhysicist said:
We couldn't disagree more. He does care. That you do not like his product doesnt mean he doesnt care. And they are not opposed. That you cannot see the synergies is fair enough, but they are there. As with most things, just depends on how things get done.

Twitter is zillion times better than pre Eolon an since I'm positive you'll disagree, we can agree to disagree.

As always, YMMV.

Twitter is a dead man walking.

ZombiePhysicist

· #23 · 22 d ago

JoeZaff said:
I was wondering why they cancelled their presentation a month or so ago and decided to reschedule it to include 2023 Q1 as well. It seems they did so to try and show that, despite a dismal 2022, things where improving. Maybe dumping Ron Dennis and giving him 333 million to go wasn't such a great idea...

Mclaren faces some serious headwinds. A buyout doesn't seem likely to me at least. The VW group or BMW would be the most obvious buyers. However, Audi was already spurned and its unclear what appetite BMW would have to save the fledgling automaker, except maybe to re-enter F1--- but I have no idea what their interest would be given their last unceremonious exit.

I am just a layman in the peanut gallery, but it seems to me that anyone who rescued Mclaren would pretty much have to completely recast the automaker. Mclaren's insistence on going its own way rather than adopt or borrow technology from legacy automakers, as well as its hand assembly process, have made very special and unique cars, but have done nothing to meaningfully improve reliability in the 12 years since its inception. If Mclaren ever gets bought out, in my estimation, it will become a very different company, like what BMW did to Rolls Royce or VW did to Lambo.

It seems to me, that instead of an SUV--which may or may not meaningfully help their bottom line (See Aston Martin) but would require heavy investment, they should do something simple. Take an existing platform, detune the motor, invest in a manual transmission, decontent and simplify the car to basics, and pump out a simple "raw", light sports car for "purists." Porsche is owning this segment of the market and there is clearly enough demand to support a few thousand units a year. If people are paying an ADM of 300K for a manual GT3, they will pay 200K for a manual mclaren. Ironically, Gordon Murray is once again giving the blue print (at a much higher price point)...

Just my worthless opinion

No worthless opinions. I agree with a bunch of it an disagree with some of it. But it's all in good spirit to try and help a maker we all like and enjoy. I'm not sure there are many easy clear paths for them, but whatever they settle on, I think we all wish them well and hope they succeed but still keep making great cars.

ZombiePhysicist

· #24 · 22 d ago

invisiblewave said:
Twitter is a dead man walking.

Bet you $1 it will do great.

invisiblewave

· #25 · 22 d ago

ZombiePhysicist said:
Bet you $1 it will do great.

You're on! The banks have already written off 50%.

Reactions: 1

alexceres

· #26 · 22 d ago

ZombiePhysicist said:
We couldn't disagree more. He does care. That you do not like his product doesnt mean he doesnt care. And they are not opposed. That you cannot see the synergies is fair enough, but they are there. As with most things, just depends on how things get done.

Twitter is zillion times better than pre Eolon an since I'm positive you'll disagree, we can agree to disagree.

As always, YMMV.

You aren’t listening to any of what Elon has flat out said. Volume and robots. Autopilot is more important than any driving experience or any aspect of mclaren

I refer you back to The Wire. It’s the other way.

Reactions: 2

ZombiePhysicist

· #27 · 22 d ago

invisiblewave said:
You're on! The banks have already written off 50%.

You see bug, I see feature!

Reactions: 1

ZombiePhysicist

· #28 · 22 d ago

alexceres said:
You aren’t listening to any of what Elon has flat out said. Volume and robots. Autopilot is more important than any driving experience or any aspect of mclaren

I refer you back to The Wire. It’s the other way.

I listen plenty. See Steve Jobs. We'll see how it turns out.

Machiavelli

· #29 · 22 d ago

Apple has no interest in mclaren or any other super car brand for that matter.

Tesla maybe, didn't Elon own an f1?

He's always been un orthodox so acquiring a super car company would certainly fit that description.

Reactions: 1

ZombiePhysicist

· #30 · 22 d ago

Machiavelli said:
Apple has no interest in mclaren or any other super car brand for that matter.

Tesla maybe, didn't Elon own an f1?

He's always been un orthodox so acquiring a super car company would certainly fit that description.

Well it's a bit of some fun speculation. Regardless, I guess in the mean time they have enough runway to hopefully sell enough Artura's and 750s that it gets them to a good place and they have a little more breathing room to maneuver.

Machiavelli

· #31 · 22 d ago

Lots of car companies have gone bankrupt, some bailed out others left to die.

I have a hard time believing mclaren would fall into the latter category.

They aren't amc Motors, think lamborghini in the 70's, the brand continued.

Reactions: 1

ZombiePhysicist

· #32 · 22 d ago

Machiavelli said:
Lots of car companies have gone bankrupt, some bailed out others left to die.

I have a hard time believing mclaren would fall into the latter category.

They aren't amc Motors, think lamborghini in the 70's, the brand continued.

Yea, lot of intangible good will value in that trademark.

herwawan

· #33 · 22 d ago

Lotus is already filling that gap with a simple, light, manual transmission sport car. I don’t think we need another Lotus, and what makes McLaren is what sells McLaren.

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JoeZaff

· #34 · 22 d ago (Edited)

herwawan said:
Lotus is already filling that gap with a simple, light, manual transmission sport car. I don’t think we need another Lotus, and what makes McLaren is what sells McLaren.

I don’t think Mclaren actually sells that well at all historically. In their best year they were at just under 5k cars if I recall correctly, and most of those had to be aggressively discounted to move. Their special editions have also been hit or
Miss. I love Mclaren, obviously, but a lot would have to change and massive investment would have to be made to change the current trajectory.

Either Mclaren finds a way to be profitable in very small volume or find a niche and fill it. In my humble opinion, there is room in that slot. Gordon Murray sold out his entire allotment of lightweight million dollar plus manual v12 “supercars”… all 3 variants, Porsche has a multiyear wait list for gt3 manuals (as well as autos) and getting $100k over Msrp used. The lotus is great, but it is more like a 718 cayman fighter than a supercar offering, though I am sure it fights well above its weight.

I personally believe the demographic is there and, except for the gearbox, you could make it with parts you already have… so cheap R&D… which Mclaren desperately needs.

I’m not so sure the SUV is the answer. I’m not saying it won’t sell, but like the 720s. It will now be competing with Ferrari, lambo. Aston, and Porsche in that space…. The investment would be massive to build it, and if they want to build it in volume they are gonna have to get an even more massive investment, because I would surmise that their current almost robotless assembly process isn’t going to cut it at 7500k units of SUVs alone. The fact that the SUV failed to rescue Aston is a potential canary in a coal mine for me.

People tend to forget that, before the cayenne “saved Porsche” the Boxster did.

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alexceres

· #35 · 22 d ago

💯

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alexceres

· #36 · 22 d ago

while i agree with the above, I’ll note that lamborghini only sold 3900 sports cars in 2022. So McLaren isn’t all that far off. They do need to figure out how to be profitable at that scale.

sailfly

· #37 · 22 d ago

eMcL said:
Think the issue is more an execution problem than low pricing. Would like to have seen the modest (low risk) 750 introduced in 2022 rather than have the company totally committed to a new architecture (Artura) introduction. Need to manage risk.

I mean pricing/product planning is kind of a problem too. When compared to the similar 296, the Artura either introduced or has a bespoke carbon monocoque, engine (296 shares parts with V8), infotainment, electrical architecture, and body panel process. But somehow the Artura is around 100k cheaper.

Would Mclaren be in this situation if they had chosen to only introduce only one of these things? Or maybe not on their entry level high(er) production model?

Ferraris first non limited production hybrid was the SF90, which had tons of issues. The 296 hybrid system is less complex but still shares the P2 motor (I think this is what the industry calls it) in between the engine and gearbox. And it still has problems. Im not too sure that Ferrari would be much different if they had chosen to release the 296 first.

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sailfly

· #38 · 22 d ago

ZombiePhysicist said:
Man they need to clean up the artura bugs so it starts to win hearts and minds and get the 750 perfect and grit it out there. They need a positive streak to just get above water and start building some buffer.

That said it’s crazy apple, or Tesla doesn’t buy them with some couch money. Mclaren really is the world leader in carbon fiber vehicles by far, and with real backing that could do soooooo much for the auto industry. I bet just going to carbon tubs alone would reduce US auto death rate rate from 35000 a year down to less than 10000. It’s a huge selling point. Particularly if you make an suv with a carbon cage.

I personally do not consider buying any sports car that doesn’t have a carbon fiber frame.

Apple and Tesla could start producing lighter and way safer cars, and Mclaren could super help there. Lightness for EV cars also helps with weight and range. And they could still hold up Mclaren as a halo brand. It’s kind of shocking no one there sees the value when Mclaren can be had so cheaply. It’s totally a peanut butter meets chocolate thing imo.

Fairly sure I responded to something similar to you months ago on this subject. Mclaren did not come up with the process they use to make the tubs. Mubea Carbotech and the company they aquired, ATR, did.

Mclaren is definitely not the leader in Carbon Fiber vehicles. That would probably be some Tier 1 composites auto supplier or BMW Or Nissan. BMW successfully mass produced the i3 and i8 if you forgot. And the last gen 7 series had a lot of carbon in it.

Also your bet is a huge uninformed one. Even if you have a carbon tub car if the load/SUV is big enough you still die. When cfrp fails its called catastrophic failure for a reason.

www.compositesworld.com

More from JEC: High-quality carbon fiber monocoques in two hours

Mubea Carbo Tech produces high-quality carbon fiber monocoques in increasingly larger volumes and lower cycle times, and now introduces all-CF wheels to save almost 30 lb per vehicle.

www.compositesworld.com

www.compositesworld.com

Innovative Composite Design May Replace Aluminum Chassis

It's been called the automotive engineer's dream material. Able to assume any shape while delivering stiffness, strength and light weight, carbon fiber has been the material of choice for years in structural components and stylishly aerodynamic exterior panels on race cars and exotic supercars...

www.compositesworld.com

Reactions: 2

ZombiePhysicist

· #39 · 22 d ago

sailfly said:
Fairly sure I responded to something similar to you months ago on this subject. Mclaren did not come up with the process they use to make the tubs. Mubea Carbotech and the company they aquired, ATR, did.

Mclaren is definitely not the leader in Carbon Fiber vehicles. That would probably be some Tier 1 composites auto supplier or BMW Or Nissan. BMW successfully mass produced the i3 and i8 if you forgot. And the last gen 7 series had a lot of carbon in it.

Also your bet is a huge uninformed one. Even if you have a carbon tub car if the load/SUV is big enough you still die. When cfrp fails its called catastrophic failure for a reason.

More from JEC: High-quality carbon fiber monocoques in two hours

Mubea Carbo Tech produces high-quality carbon fiber monocoques in increasingly larger volumes and lower cycle times, and now introduces all-CF wheels to save almost 30 lb per vehicle.

www.compositesworld.com

Innovative Composite Design May Replace Aluminum Chassis

It's been called the automotive engineer's dream material. Able to assume any shape while delivering stiffness, strength and light weight, carbon fiber has been the material of choice for years in structural components and stylishly aerodynamic exterior panels on race cars and exotic supercars...

www.compositesworld.com

They may not be the leaders in pressing the carbon, but they, I do believe, come up with the design. It's a bit like apple. They design their chips and send it to a fab to make produce the chips. It could be any fab. Mostly to TMSC but some to Samsung too. But that doesnt mean apple doesnt know way better than the fab what constitutes a good chip processor.

eMcL

Discussion Starter · #40 · 22 d ago

sailfly said:
I mean pricing/product planning is kind of a problem too. When compared to the similar 296, the Artura either introduced or has a bespoke carbon monocoque, engine (296 shares parts with V8), infotainment, electrical architecture, and body panel process. But somehow the Artura is around 100k cheaper.

Would Mclaren be in this situation if they had chosen to only introduce only one of these things? Or maybe not on their entry level high(er) production model?

Ferraris first non limited production hybrid was the SF90, which had tons of issues. The 296 hybrid system is less complex but still shares the P2 motor (I think this is what the industry calls it) in between the engine and gearbox. And it still has problems. Im not too sure that Ferrari would be much different if they had chosen to release the 296 first.

My point is that McLaren bet the farm on a new V6 ICE, new axial electric motor, new (to them) transmission and suite of Ethernet and hybrid control electronics. For me the likelihood of multiple problems occurring was very high. Under these conditions management can’t rely on engineers assuring them that they will meet qualification schedules (don’t ask me how I know). Delays should have been anticipated and a 750 type product been available to fill the production gap or perhaps a non hybrid V6 similar to MC20….. Anyway it is done now and I assume that as the production and shipment to customer bottle necks get eliminated the Q3 and Q4 shipments of Arturas will be good.

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