[GeorgeSSS]

Mercedes made Ron Dennis repurchase his McLaren stock reportedly because McLaren announced it would become a road car manufacturer. The Mercedes F1 engine deal expires in 2015. Ron D. is nothing if he is not astute. So where does he plan to go for F1 engines after Mercedes pulls theirs?

Renault? -- -- I don't see it for the same reasons Mercedes objected.

Ferrari? -- -- Not in this lifetime.

Cosworth?-- -- Not competitive and has no plans to become competitive. F1 engines are just another product line that a very profitable engineering firm sells to a desperate and captive audience.

SOLUTION: I think McLaren makes their own engines and also leases them to some of the back marker teams to lower unit costs and broaden their data acquisition base. Now that Mac is building the 12C and the forthcoming super car, their industrial capacity is greatly enhanced, they have V8 experience, and they take a step toward the Ferrari model wherein the F-boys make the entire racing car and road car.

Logical: I think so.

Speculation: Of course.

Opinions: Anyone else?

 

[6th element]

Mercedes made Ron Dennis repurchase his McLaren stock reportedly because McLaren announced it would become a road car manufacturer. The Mercedes F1 engine deal expires in 2015. Ron D. is nothing if he is not astute. So where does he plan to go for F1 engines after Mercedes pulls theirs?

Renault? -- -- I don't see it for the same reasons Mercedes objected.

Ferrari? -- -- Not in this lifetime.

Cosworth?-- -- Not competitive and has no plans to become competitive. F1 engines are just another product line that a very profitable engineering firm sells to a desperate and captive audience.

SOLUTION: I think McLaren makes their own engines and also leases them to some of the back marker teams to lower unit costs and broaden their data acquisition base. Now that Mac is building the 12C and the forthcoming super car, their industrial capacity is greatly enhanced, they have V8 experience, and they take a step toward the Ferrari model wherein the F-boys make the entire racing car and road car.

Logical: I think so.

Speculation: Of course.

Opinions: Anyone else?

I think they are probably considering making their own, but waiting until the business case is a no brainer. i.e. right now Merc makes the most competitive F1 motor and the road car business is relatively low volume. So, I think they are waiting until it makes more financial sense to make the monumental investment required to bring engine production in-house. My bet is that it doesn't happen for several years, soonest.

 

[GeorgeSSS]

I think they are probably considering making their own, but waiting until the business case is a no brainer. i.e. right now Merc makes the most competitive F1 motor and the road car business is relatively low volume. So, I think they are waiting until it makes more financial sense to make the monumental investment required to bring engine production in-house. My bet is that it doesn't happen for several years, soonest.

I agree with what you say. Problem is that the Mercedes engine deal expires at the end of the 2015 season. Also, 2014 is slated as the shift to V6 turbos. So McLaren F1 has a pretty short horizon within which to make some game changing decisions.

 

[6th element]

I agree with what you say. Problem is that the Mercedes engine deal expires at the end of the 2015 season. Also, 2014 is slated as the shift to V6 turbos. So McLaren F1 has a pretty short horizon within which to make some game changing decisions.

Why has Merc said they won't continue supplying engines? It seems like a good business for them.

 

[GeorgeSSS]

Why has Merc said they won't continue supplying engines? It seems like a good business for them.

They said it was because McLaren had announced it would build road vehicles. I think the Germans now saw McLaren as a competitor when we had formerly been seen as their partner. This was the same announcement as when they made public that Ron Dennis would buy back the McLaren stock owned by Mercedes.

 

[dennis]

They said it was because McLaren had announced it would build road vehicles. I think the Germans now saw McLaren as a competitor when we had formerly been seen as their partner. This was the same announcement as when they made public that Ron Dennis would buy back the McLaren stock owned by Mercedes.

And the Mercedes car that competes with the MP4-12C is ???

 

[falb]

McLaren F1 needs a bespoke engine. Ricardo will likely be able to handle the manufacture under the tutelage of McLaren. That is my opinionated speculation.

 

[Osiris_x11]

I thought Ron+company repurchased McLaren shares from Daimler-Mercedes because the latter moved onto to create their own team (from Brawn-GP to Mercedes-Petronas), and the engine-supply agreement was going to be up in 2012. To continue, McLaren will have to pay Daimler 11mllion GBP per-annum for the F1 power-plants.

With the shift to V6-turbo engines, McLaren can (relatively) easily make a seamless transition to another supplier and/or form another partnership.

Honda is slated to return to F1 as an engine supplier in 2014, but there's been no link w/ anyone yet, let alone McLaren.

Speaking of which, what is the cost for in-house F1 engine development? $50million? $100million? $250million? $500million? /Dr.Evil'voice

 

[MTC]

I thought Ron+company repurchased McLaren shares from Daimler-Mercedes because the latter moved onto to create their own team (from Brawn-GP to Mercedes-Petronas), and the engine-supply agreement was going to be up in 2012. To continue, McLaren will have to pay Daimler 11mllion GBP per-annum for the F1 power-plants.

With the shift to V6-turbo engines, McLaren can (relatively) easily make a seamless transition to another supplier and/or form another partnership.

Honda is slated to return to F1 as an engine supplier in 2014, but there's been no link w/ anyone yet, let alone McLaren.

Speaking of which, what is the cost for in-house F1 engine development? $50million? $100million? $250million? $500million? /Dr.Evil'voice

Approx: £80-100 million for R&D (Includes a year of racing) Designing should take 2-3 years from scratch.

McLaren should build their own engines.

 

[GeorgeSSS]

I did not know Honda is returning to F1 in 2014 as an engine supplier. Given the McLaren-Honda F1 history of success and the end of the Mercedes engine deal, Mac/Honda looks like a natural connection.

Looking at the economics for Mac, which applies?

1.) Honda sells F1 engines to McLaren.

2.) Honda gives F1 engines to McLaren so it can get advertising benefit from being associated with a winner (notice that Toyota is assaulting Audi at Le Mans)

3.) Honda gives F1 engines and money to McLaren to help make them a winner with Honda engines. (Still cheaper than Toyota's Le Mans program).

Layer on all of this the fiasco that was Honda F1 the last time they were here and the fact that F1 engines are easier to build now with the Concorde RPM limitations.

MY SPECULATION: With the RPM limitations, Honda can make a first class F1 engine. Ron D will threaten Honda that Mac will make its own engines with Ricardo and manoeuvers Honda into spending a lot of money to make top notch engines only for McLaren plus he makes Honda give McLaren money. If Honda wants their best chance to "one up" Toyota in Europe, they don't have many choices as good as McLaren F1.

 

[GeorgeSSS]

And the Mercedes car that competes with the MP4-12C is ???

Dennis: Thanks for focusing me on that. When I first read your comment, I thought I'd blown it. A little homework produced the following quote from Edmunds in June:
**

Pricing for the SLS AMG GT in the U.S. market has not been announced. But when the car goes on sale in Germany in October, it will start at the U.S. equivalent of $254,548 for the GT coupe version and $264,907 for the GT roadster.
​

**
For me, there is no comparison between the SLS AMG GT and the MP4-12C, but I understand how Mercedes would want to believe that someone would be choosing between those two approaches to a exclusive high performance statement and the pricing is in the same zone.

 

[dennis]

For me, there is no comparison between the SLS AMG GT and the MP4-12C, but I understand how Mercedes would want to believe that someone would be choosing between those two approaches to a exclusive high performance statement and the pricing is in the same zone.

Yes, in their dreams...

 

[MitchF1GTR]

If Honda wants their best chance to "one up" Toyota in Europe, they don't have many choices as good as McLaren F1.

Or chase Toyota to where they've been racing for the last few years and kick their arses at Le Mans. Get a whole team together to race in the WEC and it'd cost the same as an F1 engine project for better road relevant advertising.

 

[TAG]

McLaren-Renault could be reality from 2014? Or McLaren - Porsche. McLaren-McLaren F1 engines?
Could be very exciting prospect!

Should McLaren build their own F1 engines, why not use a modified version of it in a future sportscar?
Jaguar C-75X is going to have 1600cc + turbo + KERS, so why not a V6 turbo + KERS in a McLaren sportscar?

By the way, Mercedes AMG 45 has an engine derived from the now defunct F1 project (V4+turbo+KERS).

 

[roundincircles]

The Jaguar C-75X is a four cylinder according to their tech designer Bob Joyce, see latest edition of Car magazine.

 

[TAG]

Yes i know, just thought you would read between the lines..

 

[roundincircles]

OK, so Maclaren can use the future F1 V6, got ya.

Still think they will subcontract the engine as capital is precious and engine, or power trains, have an uncertain destination in the next few years ( pun intended ).

When Bernie goes F1 will potentially destabilise with all sorts of infighting. Maybe it will be non combustion in 10 years time?

I guess Jaguar are placing a bet on 4 cylinder being acceptable with the collectors who will buy the limited edition plus public opinion will sway that way. Fair bet?

 

[GeorgeSSS]

OK, so Maclaren can use the future F1 V6, got ya.

Still think they will subcontract the engine as capital is precious and engine, or power trains, have an uncertain destination in the next few years ( pun intended ).

When Bernie goes F1 will potentially destabilise with all sorts of infighting. Maybe it will be non combustion in 10 years time?

I guess Jaguar are placing a bet on 4 cylinder being acceptable with the collectors who will buy the limited edition plus public opinion will sway that way. Fair bet?

Lots of good issues you raise Round. Thanks for putting them all in focus. Here are my speculations:

1. I am coming to the conclusion that Mercedes F1 engines are not all that great. Look at what Red Bull, Lotus (1 point behind McLaren in mfg standings) and Williams (almost no points last year with Cosworth) have accomplished with Renault power. Leaving Mercedes engines behind might be a good thing.

2. It is cheaper to spend money to make a winning engine than the cost of falling back in the F1 field. The question is how to do the engine as economically as possible. Not having a contending car taints everything else you do and the costs are incalculable IMHO. Especially if you have a road car business.

3. Bernie will not be allowed to die. His corpse will be propped up in a convertible car and driven around on race day (like when El Cid died and was propped up on a horse to successfully lead the Spaniards to oust the Moors from Spain in the decisive battle in 1099). Bernie dead is smarter than anyone else alive. (Apologies to Mr. E for talking about his demise. I think he is an absolute genius.)

4. Jaguar made a 6 cylinder super car version for collectors of its 1988 Le Mans winning 12 cylinder super car, and we all so how well that turned out (NOT). Hopefully, they won't try it again.

All of the above comments are my opinions, based on absolutely nothing but my opinions. Hope they are stimulating and/or entertaining and/or maddening.

 

[6th element]

I like your style George. The El Cid analogy is priceless.

 

[roundincircles]

GeorgeSSS. I am pleased you have opinions. You are clearly not running for political office.......here in the UK you do not run for political office, you wait until everybody else has run then you declare your desired engine supplier.

Renault are getting better and , in my opinion, support the benefits of technological focus.....on engines and the French necessity for lunch irrespective of time constraints

Ron is a creature of habit.

Ron has never made a modern F1, OR OLD F1, engine and always switched engine suppliers based on .........who can deliver .......the fastest.

My fear for Bernie is his ex-wife will do a Dali and drive him around Chelsea, on his demise, in a politically wrong car......who did that two seater F1 car some years back

Jaguar did not make the car you mention, correct me if I'm wrong, as it was subcontracted to TWR. But maybe it's the car that Elton John invested in and tried to cancel when he realised it would not fit on his Scalextrix track?