[vtknight]

I left Ferrari because aside from the dealers treating customers like crap, they make too many cars, exclusivity is gone, they came out with a station wagon and now a $500K crossover. Most of the buyers aren't car or driving enthusiasts anymore and couldn't execute trail braking or find an apex (or even have any idea what those terms mean). The cars are nothing more than another gold chain or LV bag to show off at dinner or brag to people that don't care about them.

McLaren designs, engineers and puts cars together for driving enthusiasts. They make sports cars for drivers. Their production numbers keep visibility to a minimum and I have never been treated less than a valued customer. The hybrid thing annoys me, but hopefully they can figure out a way to seek out more true enthusiasts and make it without whoring the brand with a station wagon or a truck.

My same response goes to you. Going out of business or making an SUV/sedan/cross-over - and being able to make the cars I love to drive and race - I will take the latter. I know everyone is different - but I don't care about exclusivity as I am a car enthusiast. Status means nothing to me. I just want to own awesome, amazing performance cars. Also - as long as the cars I enjoy aren't a dime a dozen - what difference does it make? Strangely you talk about exclusivity being gone and then car enthusiasm and trail braking - within two sentences. About people buying cars for show. Hybrid may annoy you - but it is here to stay. Hang onto your ICE cars for future value. And we agree on one thing; McLaren builds cars for enthusiasts. Strong - performing cars. They are a business however - and reputation of build quality and the amount of money they make so they can make more outstanding cars - is more critical IMHO.

 

[ChrisK1982]

Apparently McLaren is looking to raise prices and become a more "elite" brand. I am more interested in them improving their (I feel mostly unfair) reputation. This is good for the company and owners.

that will price them out of the market - simple as that McLaren on equal tiers is already priced close to Ferrari, which is a much stronger brand in the public eye

This is a great point. Ferrari is working from Porsche's book and making each car its own entity. For most brands including McLaren and Porsche - every car "had its place". With the GT4/GT4RS for example - getting the GT3
engine threw that "place" out the window. the 296GTB is quicker and faster than the current 720S. The Artura - with its 94 HP electric assist (and almost why bother power output) - was SORELY underpowered. Mac was hoping no one would compare them - but how could they not? Also - Mac for whatever reason was still concerned about the 720S and upcoming 750S refresh...That, to me, was a massive mistake. They needed to make the Artura their priority and a massive hit. Worry about the 720S successor later - and definitely do not worry about the 750S - as much as I obviously love those cars - they are not your future. As to the V8 vs V6 - this is a tough one. ALL car manufacturers are shifting to small displacement hybrids. This gen of AMG C63 and E63 cars are four and 6 cylinder respectively. With the 2030 mandate for increased fuel economy/reduced emissions - these businesses have to make way and design these cars now. I of course would prefer they keep the V8 - and I think the 720S successor will likely do so.

The Artura is not the 296GTB competition but the 570/600LT replacement - which was also not the 488/F8 competition ... Luckily its 80k cheaper so they are not in exactly same market ...

The HP war may slow as driving dynamics get lost - and they become one trick ponies. Price - this is interesting. It seems there are many wealthy people about as higher priced, popular, exotic cars are all allocated and spoken for. I did my own research into the volume of cars for the 720S - including Spiders and arrived at about 7K. That number is quite low when even compared to the 458 (15K). With higher prices - less can be made as well - which would increase scarcity and overall value for the consumer (at least potentiall). With EV/hybrid being the near future - I think NA and ealrier ICE cars will continue to appreciate IMHO.

the different brands cars are not measured individually but against each other - for a new McL in this segment to sell it MUST beat the SF90 values while being still financially in reach for the ppl who wanna buy it. that are 70-80% current owners and maybe 30-20% new owners ... McLaren needs to make cars for ppl who buy them and their willingness to pay more for unlimited supercars - also given the different market offerings - is limited

regarding the hypercars you are more or less talking about a club of 600 - 800 ppl around the world who all own one or several McL hypercars ... I don't know of many persons who only got a p1 or Senna ... most had both ... some have the other McL hovers too as well or more than one Senna ... given the ppl who owned more than one Senna I would say McL only had about about 440 individual ppl they
sold the Senna to ... that is not a lot of ppl and they ppl won't each buy a new hypercar every 1-2 years so more exclusive does not work well ...

Again McL is NOT Ferrari who can just announce a new LE car and its sold out before being shown - Ferraris VIP target audience at 2000-3500 ppl is much wider ...

I think the Artura should stay in the 296GTB range. Giving the car more electric power - is not a major change. Another 100 HP of torque fill/instant torque will wake that car up and make it a completely different driving experience IMHO.

the drivetrain/torque IS already the problem ... this will delay the car even further and make it more costly

 

[MarkNC]

I left Ferrari because aside from the dealers treating customers like crap, they make too many cars, exclusivity is gone, they came out with a station wagon and now a $500K crossover. Most of the buyers aren't car or driving enthusiasts anymore and couldn't execute trail braking or find an apex (or even have any idea what those terms mean). The cars are nothing more than another gold chain or LV bag to show off at dinner or brag to people that don't care about them.

Yikes! I loved my "station wagon" so much (and now I'm missing it!) that I didn't think twice about signing up for that $500K crossover the minute it was revealed and thank goodness I did because now they're sold out for at least two years! I owned the FF for longer than any other Ferrari than either of the 458s I owned although now I've got a 458 SA and 430 Spider (manual) that I'll keep indefinitely.

I'm sorry but everything else you're saying seems pretty snobby. Who cares if people who can't execute track maneuvers buy a car? The fact that they're so desirable (regardless of whether that is as a fancy status symbol or a genuine drivers' car) actually make the company stronger and help the cars hold their value. McLaren has plenty of customers who can't execute track maneuvers who buy their cars too and thank goodness for them or McLaren would gone by now!

 

[vtknight]

that will price them out of the market - simple as that McLaren on equal tiers is already priced close to Ferrari, which is a much stronger brand in the public eye



The Artura is not the 296GTB competition but the 570/600LT replacement - which was also not the 488/F8 competition ... Luckily its 80k cheaper so they are not in exactly same market ...





the different brands cars are not measured individually but against each other - for a new McL in this segment to sell it MUST beat the SF90 values while being still financially in reach for the ppl who wanna buy it. that are 70-80% current owners and maybe 30-20% new owners ... McLaren needs to make cars for ppl who buy them and their willingness to pay more for unlimited supercars - also given the different market offerings - is limited

regarding the hypercars you are more or less talking about a club of 600 - 800 ppl around the world who all own one or several McL hypercars ... I don't know of many persons who only got a p1 or Senna ... most had both ... some have the other McL hovers too as well or more than one Senna ... given the ppl who owned more than one Senna I would say McL only had about about 440 individual ppl they
sold the Senna to ... that is not a lot of ppl and they ppl won't each buy a new hypercar every 1-2 years so more exclusive does not work well ...

Again McL is NOT Ferrari who can just announce a new LE car and its sold out before being shown - Ferraris VIP target audience at 2000-3500 ppl is much wider ...





the drivetrain/torque IS already the problem ... this will delay the car even further and make it more costly

TO your first point - you are correct. That said - it is a risk they have to take from a perception point of view. That takes time to work into the Public. Again though - my point is about improving quality - so I would prefer they focus on that.

For point 2 - speaking about perception...the Artura IS the 296GTB competitor - not because they are both V6 FI hybrids - that same out around the exact same time - but because the Public and magazine reviewers say so. In so many ways - how could they not be? Another problem is Mac themselves stated that there is no Sport series anymore. So they themselves have elevated the Artura to be a competitor to the 296GTB. They simply powered it like a Sport series - while Ferrari went all out to make the 296GTB a success (which it is) which is the problem for Mac. You are right - and I agree price point helps the Artura - but not if it is getting destroyed by the competition performance wise. Macs are known for their performance - always quicker than the competition.

For point 3 - we are mostly in alignment - more performance bang for the dollar - definitely not SF90 money. So far - with the Artura - it is a fail. BUT - to my point in creating this thread - they are working on it. We also agree on too many hypercars. The audience is small. 720 replacement and the Artura have to be the meat and potatoes for McLaren - which is why they have to be done right. I do think McLarens fanbase is getting bigger however. Not even close to Ferrari yet though - I agree.

For your final point - not if they fix the root cause/core issue. Adding EV assist/torque fill is done everyday and it is done well by other manufacturers (Ferrari for example). McLaren need to get their heads around this technology - because every car they build going forward is going to use it/depend upon it. add another 100 HP to the EV component and maybe another 20-50 HP with the FI engine tune (and maybe work on a better exhaust note) and you are right with the 296GTB IMHO.

 

[vtknight]

Yikes! I loved my "station wagon" so much (and now I'm missing it!) that I didn't think twice about signing up for that $500K crossover the minute it was revealed and thank goodness I did because now they're sold out for at least two years! I owned the FF for longer than any other Ferrari than either of the 458s I owned although now I've got a 458 SA and 430 Spider (manual) that I'll keep indefinitely.

I'm sorry but everything else you're saying seems pretty snobby. Who cares if people who can't execute track maneuvers buy a car? The fact that they're so desirable (regardless of whether that is as a fancy status symbol or a genuine drivers' car) actually make the company stronger and help the cars hold their value. McLaren has plenty of customers who can't execute track maneuvers who buy their cars too and thank goodness for them or McLaren would gone by now!

^Could not have said it better myself...

 

[ChrisK1982]

TO your first point - you are correct. That said - it is a risk they have to take from a perception point of view. That takes time to work into the Public. Again though - my point is about improving quality - so I would prefer they focus on that.

For point 2 - speaking about perception...the Artura IS the 296GTB competitor - not because they are both V6 FI hybrids - that same out around the exact same time - but because the Public and magazine reviewers say so. In so many ways - how could they not be? Another problem is Mac themselves stated that there is no Sport series anymore. So they themselves have elevated the Artura to be a competitor to the 296GTB. They simply powered it like a Sport series - while Ferrari went all out to make the 296GTB a success (which it is) which is the problem for Mac. You are right - and I agree price point helps the Artura - but not if it is getting destroyed by the competition performance wise. Macs are known for their performance - always quicker than the competition.

For point 3 - we are mostly in alignment - more performance bang for the dollar - definitely not SF90 money. So far - with the Artura - it is a fail. BUT - to my point in creating this thread - they are working on it. We also agree on too many hypercars. The audience is small. 720 replacement and the Artura have to be the meat and potatoes for McLaren - which is why they have to be done right. I do think McLarens fanbase is getting bigger however. Not even close to Ferrari yet though - I agree.

For your final point - not if they fix the root cause/core issue. Adding EV assist/torque fill is done everyday and it is done well by other manufacturers (Ferrari for example). McLaren need to get their heads around this technology - because every car they build going forward is going to use it/depend upon it. add another 100 HP to the EV component and maybe another 20-50 HP with the FI engine tune (and maybe work on a better exhaust note) and you are right with the 296GTB IMHO.

point 2 a GT4rs also gets destroyed by a GT3rs and the price difference is smaller, most ppl see the 296GTB as successor to the F8 and the Artura as successor to the 570s ... the problem is many ppl made something out of the Artura which it is not: a hybrid Super Series as the successor to the 720s which it is not ... bc ppl wanted it to be on the same lvl than the 720s now its tested against cars that are on 720s lvl ... making the Artura look worse than it is ... additionally its a base model which was tested against a 296GTB AF in race trim ... its a joke and ppl are falling for it ...


point 4: too much torque already caused the 12-18 months delay ... you would need another drivetrain for 100hp more ... also than you need to price it higher (750s lvl) it won't work with this platform on stage1 bc that is probably what the LT of the Artura will be

 

[vtknight]

point 2 a GT4rs also gets destroyed by a GT3rs and the price difference is smaller, most ppl see the 296GTB as successor to the F8 and the Artura as successor to the 570s ... the problem is many ppl made something out of the Artura which it is not: a hybrid Super Series as the successor to the 720s which it is not ... bc ppl wanted it to be on the same lvl than the 720s now its tested against cars that are on 720s lvl ... making the Artura look worse than it is ... additionally its a base model which was tested against a 296GTB AF in race trim ... its a joke and ppl are falling for it ...


point 4: too much torque already caused the 12-18 months delay ... you would need another drivetrain for 100hp more ... also than you need to price it higher (750s lvl) it won't work with this platform on stage1 bc that is probably what the LT of the Artura will be

Again to point 1 - Mclaren themselves stated no more 570S or successors at that level. I do agree with you that this is what McLaren created - so they have created a conundrum for themselves. And Ferrari did the Checkmate. Because the setup is so similar - again - it is difficult not to compare them - and every magazine and Youtube channel is.

Point four - there isn't enough torque for a torque problem - that is just a bad design on McLarens part - the Artura makes 500 lb ft. And this is why I am saying they need to fix the root issues. If Tesla can build a trans that handles 1050 lb feet of torque - then McLaren can at least build a DCT that SF90 lvl torque - 590 lb ft. 296GTB - 546. Plus torque fill is not just raw torque - I am talking about upping the HP - to 150+ (296GTB is 165) - and get another 25-50 from the FI setup via tune. Gets the Artura close to 800 HP and with it being lighter - should be very close. Tune costs nothing - and upping EV output should not be a huge adjustment.

 

[eMcL]

@vtknight fyi

MTZ article featuring the Artura transmission

https://downloads.hoferpowertrain.com/files/MTZ10-New-hybrid-transmission-for-supercar-applications.pdf

www.mclarenlife.com

 

[vtknight]

@vtknight fyi

MTZ article featuring the Artura transmission

https://downloads.hoferpowertrain.com/files/MTZ10-New-hybrid-transmission-for-supercar-applications.pdf

www.mclarenlife.com

Thank-you for this...I am not sure I understand their thinking then. 300 KW is about 500 lb ft. Why would they limit themselves like that? HP is what I was asking for though...but this new info doesn't help lol.

 

[eMcL]

Thank-you for this...I am not sure I understand their thinking then. 300 KW is about 500 lb ft. Why would they limit themselves like that? HP is what I was asking for though...but this new info doesn't help lol.

I don’t have any direct information from McLaren. But my ‘internet’ suspicion is that Ferrari somehow got wind of the Artura V6+Axial sandwich motor development and set out to develop a competitive product. For McLaren having a new to them V6 and perhaps wanting to allow some head room for an Artura with wing model etc was conservative. Any way if McLaren solves the problems and keeps the Artura price low I think they will sell well ….

 

[vtknight]

I don’t have any direct information from McLaren. But my ‘internet’ suspicion is that Ferrari somehow got wind of the Artura V6+Axial sandwich motor development and set out to develop a competitive product. For McLaren having a new to them V6 and perhaps wanting to allow some head room for an Artura with wing model etc was conservative. Any way if McLaren solves the problems and keeps the Artura price low I think they will sell well ….

Great information - and I agree.

 

[unmac]

I think people on car forums think too much 🤡.

price and availability trumps pretty much everything . Fwiw; I know a number of people who are getting artura and have orders in For 296.

 

[vtknight]

I think people on car forums think too much 🤡.

price and availability trumps pretty much everything . Fwiw; I know a number of people who are getting artura and have orders in For 296.

Awesome. Thank-you for the clown icon and your contribution to this thread.

 

[unmac]

Awesome. Thank-you for the clown icon and your contribution to this thread.

you’re welcome . Lol .

Get to know many owners , dealers , sales people and then start making definitive statements . Too many clowns on car forums these days that keep shouting opinions that are theirs only . It’s the easiest way to get future postings discounted by everyone .

 

[vtknight]

you’re welcome . Lol .

Get to know many owners , dealers , sales people and then start making definitive statements . Too many clowns on car forums these days that keep shouting opinions that are theirs only . It’s the easiest way to get future postings discounted by everyone .

This is literally a forum and no one is shouting. I have watched your posts. And I know - we all get it - you think you're a really big deal - you know everyone - are a professional race car driver - and are mixed in with the truly elite. That is awesome. But that is your assessment.

My assessment is - in my humble experience - wealthy, successful and especially people who are confident - don't behave as you do. Only people missing something in their lives. It is sad to see and I feel badly for you.

If you think I care about my future posts here. You are mistaken.

 

[eMcL]

I think people on car forums think too much 🤡.

price and availability trumps pretty much everything . Fwiw; I know a number of people who are getting artura and have orders in For 296.

Yes there are several on the forum that said they are getting both 296 & Artura. 😀

 

[Superfluous]

 

[vtknight]

Lol...

 

[Mikeyb]

Yikes! I loved my "station wagon" so much (and now I'm missing it!) that I didn't think twice about signing up for that $500K crossover the minute it was revealed and thank goodness I did because now they're sold out for at least two years! I owned the FF for longer than any other Ferrari than either of the 458s I owned although now I've got a 458 SA and 430 Spider (manual) that I'll keep indefinitely.

I'm sorry but everything else you're saying seems pretty snobby. Who cares if people who can't execute track maneuvers buy a car? The fact that they're so desirable (regardless of whether that is as a fancy status symbol or a genuine drivers' car) actually make the company stronger and help the cars hold their value. McLaren has plenty of customers who can't execute track maneuvers who buy their cars too and thank goodness for them or McLaren would gone by now!

welcome back @MarkNC

 

[New Britain]

it’s more the latter than the former. Or at least it was.

yeah.. the experience taht a lot of people in europe particularly experienced... long standing customers probably forgive most of it, new ones not so... nice to believe that that won't happen anymore.. it was always an incredibly poor strategy...

Mikey,
I'm not sure that it was ever a strategy, more a near-death spiral into which they unwittingly got themselves owing to naïveté, hubris, inadequate funding, a questionable decision to mass-produce road cars in Woking, Surrey, and a boardroom war that preoccupied and dislocated the most senior leadership.