Leiters interview with Evo, Focus on Quality at McLaren, Positive Outlook Moving Forward

Mikeyb · 2022-12-06

Nothing new, at least for some of us, but at least reminds that he is moving the company in the right direction.. https://www.evo.co.uk/mclaren/205511/mclarens-next-generation-new-ceo-michael-leiters-on-his-mission-to-reform-the-brand?fbclid=IwAR11WsSExG1lWF2iD4Tqsx3PVPdXW-Ji2253pPO83J7TxBfXYpp_VXDrTf0 No mention of semi conductor shortages.. just honesty..

ChrisK1982

· #2 · 6 mo ago (Edited)

umm ... he comes from which company ??? hope he really means what he says, because current Ferrari and Porsche products more seem like a ongoing work in progress to fix problems ... even the 992 now has much more quality issues than the cars before, same I was told about SF90 and Roma ...

Rest of the interview I hope he does not want to copy Ferraris or AMs product portfolio ... bc that is somehow like what it sounds and would go away from the pureness of McL in regards to the cars they currently make - the overlap of course somehow is there - but on the other hand it makes a lot of trouble and takes many resources to make e.g V8 front engine, V8 mid engine, v6 mid engine, SUV, GT and than hypercars with non transferable tech when only making such small numbers - not sure how he wants to safe money that way ...

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ChrisK1982

· #5 · 6 mo ago

Iron5 said:
I think this is a crucial passage in the article "...To achieve this and deliver on Leiters’ strategy (Flewitt’s ‘Track 25’ plan is at the bottom of the MTC lake) will require McLaren to form a technology partnership with an OEM (think BMW rather than Audi)..."

Yes true … from a quality side I would think Audi would be better, but there is a risk with VW bc of the many brands they have … BMW would probably look better after them bc they don’t have a own exclusive sportscar brand of which VW has a whole portfolio

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ChrisK1982

· #8 · 6 mo ago (Edited)

Mikeyb said:
yeah i'd agree.. at some point, sooner rather tahn later, he'll be judged on what they have acheived... but it's best that they do things thoroughly... shutting down the factory to assess correctly quality concerns etc (we'll remember that they indeed wouldn't even let complete cars leave the factory.. ) .. cos you will always have this grace period where you can legitmately claim to have unearthed problems from the previous management.. but that doesn't last for ever..

but you have to get the problems you come across fixed, and as quickly as possible to move things forward.. .

if its only quality issues in assembly that might work ... if its design issues or general problems bc a part does not hold the required strength (e.g., gorilla glass problems of the 720s), it might be a long way to go to get the production line running again

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ChrisK1982

· #12 · 6 mo ago

GVIrish said:
I'm kind of interested in what product differentiation means to Leiter. I do think McLaren would benefit from having a different engine for the Ultimate series cars than the Super/Sport series. Ideally I'd like the Super series to keep the V8 even if it goes plug in hybrid, but I don't know that they can amortize the V6 properly I'd they do that.

I also think that if McLaren wants to have a GT offering they should actually make a front engines 2 seater or 2+2. I don't think just making a restyled 570 works. That may mean another version of the carbon tub, and maybe they can leverage that for a crossover of some sort.

One technology that might help McLaren with the SUV or front-engined GT products is Gordon Murray's iStream. From what I understand you get a lot of the benefits of a full carbon fiber chassis but at significantly less cost.

Think McLaren needs to keep the 4 liter V8TT for the 720s hybrid replacement if they want to be on the same lvl with Lambo (Aventador Replacement) and Ferrari (SF90) .. a 3liter V6TT won't cut it

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ChrisK1982

· #14 · 6 mo ago

ZombiePhysicist said:
Pretty pivotal quote IMO:

‘What I heard from my team here is that in the past we accepted a non-mature product and would launch it and deliver it to the customers. The Artura was the first project where we didn’t do that. We saw that the car wasn’t mature, so we stopped deliveries. We already had a significant delay in our production line at the time and we reduced [production] to zero [cars] a day to fix our quality problems.
...
‘Doing this risked the financial position of the company, but I think this was a very important change we made. A very important message we give to our dealers and customers: that we have understood that in the future quality will be our focus. No longer will we say “the car is driving so fast and is so engaging and whatever, so please forgive us some quality issues”. Not any more.’

He may say this … but he comes from Ferrari and there are many issues with the Roma and SF90 … so in theory maybe it’s possible to address all the issues, but these things have the nasty habit that once you addressed the current ones and the car gets updated or a new model is created other issues reappear …

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ChrisK1982

· #18 · 6 mo ago

ZombiePhysicist said:
It seems to me the GT is a placeholder for now. But I do wonder what a "complete" lineup would be?

GT: Some GT replacement to be the base entry model (but not sure what it would be, lets go crazy and say a V4 hybrid)

Supercar: Artura (V6)

Hypercar: 750->950 hybrid? (V8)

Megacar: An unlimited sales hypercard like an Aventador competitor (V10) and special occasion cars like the P2

SUV

GT as nice as it is, is still more supercar than most real supercars and less GT … don’t get me wrong it’s a great car to have if you don’t care about things like traveling with lots of luggage or more than 2 ppl but on the other hand it’s competing with cars like Bentley GT, AMG GT 4 door, Audi RS7 or BMW M8 while still being more of a performance car than an Audi R8 … it’s a niche car for rich singles or couples that don’t mind having a bit less comfort but more sportiness and don‘t want sth. traditional like a Bentley and don’t travel with big trunks …

As for the others what you suggest is kind of suicidal for Mclaren if they don’t just rebrand other manufacturers cars … R&D for 4-5 independent cars with nearly no shared parts would probably kill all abilities for profits … non of these cars would have any shared costs with the others …

I would say 2 engines for the time being:
V8TT and V6TT both Hybrid and a future EV …

Layout is a problem if you wanna keep McL DNA … not so much for the SUV but for all the rest …

a Mclaren is a light 2 winged doors mid engine car with cf chassis !!! 2 or 3 seats … they never did anything else and it’s probably quiet an act to get ppl into a front engine GT or some kind of sports cross over with limited off road capabilities given that tradition … problem is you don’t only need to design some car, but that car has to appeal to ppl willing to spend 250-500k and it needs to be in their eyes better than the competing products … I don’t really see how Mclaren could do that with front engine GTs that would be measured against iconic cars like the 812 …

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ChrisK1982

· #31 · 6 mo ago

Mikeyb said:
it’s more the latter than the former. Or at least it was.

yeah.. the experience taht a lot of people in europe particularly experienced... long standing customers probably forgive most of it, new ones not so... nice to believe that that won't happen anymore.. it was always an incredibly poor strategy...

Yes I know ... that's why I said he might have a longer job doing this than he thinks ... Gorilla Glass, weak windshields, accumulators, P1 battery assembly, coolant leakage bc of clips etc were all design issues and not assembly issues ...

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ChrisK1982

· #34 · 6 mo ago

GVIrish said:
This gets to be interesting because Ferrari sort of shifted price points up significantly, and dropped a new product between where the Super series and Ultimate series would be. So should Mclaren aim the 720S replacement squarely at the 296 GTB (and the Huracan replacement)? Should the 720S replacement make a big jump in price to compete more directly with the 296? Should it be aiming to compete with the SF90 (which would be an even bigger price jump)?

Or, should McLaren create another model above the 720S replacement to compete with the quasi hypercars like the SF90 and Valhalla for $500-750k?

I'd prefer to keep the V8TT in the Super series to differentiate a bit more from the Artura but I wouldn't kick a sufficiently powerful and engaging V6TT out of bed. With the coming P1 successor I think creating a quasi hypercar might not make sense in the near term. And for profitability's sake, a SUV/crossover makes more sense to spend resources on.

that the 720s successor should be a quasi hypercar by todays standards from all its stats is clear (950hp 1450kg and aero at least on 765LT lvl in the base version should be set ) ... that somehow makes the P2 need to have 1200+hp similar weight and some way more exotic aero) ...

Price lvl they cannot move up much or will price themselves out of the market ... 350-380k base is maximum from what I think... so most will be around 420-500 ... thats the maximum the market will support for a car with about 5500-8000 copies ...

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ChrisK1982

· #36 · 6 mo ago

GVIrish said:
Yeah the 720S successor will certainly have otherworldly performance if McLaren performance trends hold true. I agree that McLaren can't jump up too far in price otherwise they'll price themselves out. I think McLaren may need to stick close to where the 296 GTB's base price is. Even if the Mac comes with a lot more standard features and reasonably priced options, I don't think it would be good to have a base price much higher than the Ferrari.

if it is V8TT Hybrid they can price a bit higher ... say 45-65k more than the 296GTB base ... but still below SF90 /Aventador 2

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ChrisK1982

· #40 · 6 mo ago (Edited)

vtknight said:
Apparently McLaren is looking to raise prices and become a more "elite" brand. I am more interested in them improving their (I feel mostly unfair) reputation. This is good for the company and owners.

that will price them out of the market - simple as that McLaren on equal tiers is already priced close to Ferrari, which is a much stronger brand in the public eye

vtknight said:
This is a great point. Ferrari is working from Porsche's book and making each car its own entity. For most brands including McLaren and Porsche - every car "had its place". With the GT4/GT4RS for example - getting the GT3
engine threw that "place" out the window. the 296GTB is quicker and faster than the current 720S. The Artura - with its 94 HP electric assist (and almost why bother power output) - was SORELY underpowered. Mac was hoping no one would compare them - but how could they not? Also - Mac for whatever reason was still concerned about the 720S and upcoming 750S refresh...That, to me, was a massive mistake. They needed to make the Artura their priority and a massive hit. Worry about the 720S successor later - and definitely do not worry about the 750S - as much as I obviously love those cars - they are not your future. As to the V8 vs V6 - this is a tough one. ALL car manufacturers are shifting to small displacement hybrids. This gen of AMG C63 and E63 cars are four and 6 cylinder respectively. With the 2030 mandate for increased fuel economy/reduced emissions - these businesses have to make way and design these cars now. I of course would prefer they keep the V8 - and I think the 720S successor will likely do so.

The Artura is not the 296GTB competition but the 570/600LT replacement - which was also not the 488/F8 competition ... Luckily its 80k cheaper so they are not in exactly same market ...

vtknight said:
The HP war may slow as driving dynamics get lost - and they become one trick ponies. Price - this is interesting. It seems there are many wealthy people about as higher priced, popular, exotic cars are all allocated and spoken for. I did my own research into the volume of cars for the 720S - including Spiders and arrived at about 7K. That number is quite low when even compared to the 458 (15K). With higher prices - less can be made as well - which would increase scarcity and overall value for the consumer (at least potentiall). With EV/hybrid being the near future - I think NA and ealrier ICE cars will continue to appreciate IMHO.

the different brands cars are not measured individually but against each other - for a new McL in this segment to sell it MUST beat the SF90 values while being still financially in reach for the ppl who wanna buy it. that are 70-80% current owners and maybe 30-20% new owners ... McLaren needs to make cars for ppl who buy them and their willingness to pay more for unlimited supercars - also given the different market offerings - is limited

regarding the hypercars you are more or less talking about a club of 600 - 800 ppl around the world who all own one or several McL hypercars ... I don't know of many persons who only got a p1 or Senna ... most had both ... some have the other McL hovers too as well or more than one Senna ... given the ppl who owned more than one Senna I would say McL only had about about 440 individual ppl they
sold the Senna to ... that is not a lot of ppl and they ppl won't each buy a new hypercar every 1-2 years so more exclusive does not work well ...

Again McL is NOT Ferrari who can just announce a new LE car and its sold out before being shown - Ferraris VIP target audience at 2000-3500 ppl is much wider ...

vtknight said:
I think the Artura should stay in the 296GTB range. Giving the car more electric power - is not a major change. Another 100 HP of torque fill/instant torque will wake that car up and make it a completely different driving experience IMHO.

the drivetrain/torque IS already the problem ... this will delay the car even further and make it more costly

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ChrisK1982

· #44 · 6 mo ago

vtknight said:
TO your first point - you are correct. That said - it is a risk they have to take from a perception point of view. That takes time to work into the Public. Again though - my point is about improving quality - so I would prefer they focus on that.

For point 2 - speaking about perception...the Artura IS the 296GTB competitor - not because they are both V6 FI hybrids - that same out around the exact same time - but because the Public and magazine reviewers say so. In so many ways - how could they not be? Another problem is Mac themselves stated that there is no Sport series anymore. So they themselves have elevated the Artura to be a competitor to the 296GTB. They simply powered it like a Sport series - while Ferrari went all out to make the 296GTB a success (which it is) which is the problem for Mac. You are right - and I agree price point helps the Artura - but not if it is getting destroyed by the competition performance wise. Macs are known for their performance - always quicker than the competition.

For point 3 - we are mostly in alignment - more performance bang for the dollar - definitely not SF90 money. So far - with the Artura - it is a fail. BUT - to my point in creating this thread - they are working on it. We also agree on too many hypercars. The audience is small. 720 replacement and the Artura have to be the meat and potatoes for McLaren - which is why they have to be done right. I do think McLarens fanbase is getting bigger however. Not even close to Ferrari yet though - I agree.

For your final point - not if they fix the root cause/core issue. Adding EV assist/torque fill is done everyday and it is done well by other manufacturers (Ferrari for example). McLaren need to get their heads around this technology - because every car they build going forward is going to use it/depend upon it. add another 100 HP to the EV component and maybe another 20-50 HP with the FI engine tune (and maybe work on a better exhaust note) and you are right with the 296GTB IMHO.

point 2 a GT4rs also gets destroyed by a GT3rs and the price difference is smaller, most ppl see the 296GTB as successor to the F8 and the Artura as successor to the 570s ... the problem is many ppl made something out of the Artura which it is not: a hybrid Super Series as the successor to the 720s which it is not ... bc ppl wanted it to be on the same lvl than the 720s now its tested against cars that are on 720s lvl ... making the Artura look worse than it is ... additionally its a base model which was tested against a 296GTB AF in race trim ... its a joke and ppl are falling for it ...

point 4: too much torque already caused the 12-18 months delay ... you would need another drivetrain for 100hp more ... also than you need to price it higher (750s lvl) it won't work with this platform on stage1 bc that is probably what the LT of the Artura will be

Leiters interview with Evo, Focus on Quality at McLaren, Positive Outlook Moving Forward

Mikeyb

McLaren's next generation – new CEO Michael Leiters on his mission to reform the brand | Evo

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