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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
The attached brochure page illustrates the difference in line between a MP12 and conventional sports car.

The orange line is the MP12 AND THE WHITE LINE conventional cars

The break steer lets you break later as the inside rear wheel is auto breaked to yaw the car to the apex. Additionally the system applies brake force on exit to the inside rear wheel to prevent wheel spin

So, clearly 911 drivers, like myself, will have to learn/adjust to this feature to get the best from the car......do journos understand this?

Any way are any owners getting the hang of using this break steer feature with their new toy?
 

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The attached brochure page illustrates the difference in line between a MP12 and conventional sports car.

The orange line is the MP12 AND THE WHITE LINE conventional cars

The break steer lets you break later as the inside rear wheel is auto breaked to yaw the car to the apex. Additionally the system applies brake force on exit to the inside rear wheel to prevent wheel spin

So, clearly 911 drivers, like myself, will have to learn/adjust to this feature to get the best from the car......do journos understand this?

Any way are any owners getting the hang of using this break steer feature with their new toy?
This simply looks like a very late apex to keep the turbos spooled. The white line makes no sense whatsoever.
 

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The attached brochure page illustrates the difference in line between a MP12 and conventional sports car.

The orange line is the MP12 AND THE WHITE LINE conventional cars

The break steer lets you break later as the inside rear wheel is auto breaked to yaw the car to the apex. Additionally the system applies brake force on exit to the inside rear wheel to prevent wheel spin

So, clearly 911 drivers, like myself, will have to learn/adjust to this feature to get the best from the car......do journos understand this?

Any way are any owners getting the hang of using this break steer feature with their new toy?
Done it once and surprised myself,car coming back from the dealers tmw,so will be trying again over the weekend it its not wet!
 

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Thanks very much for scanning and posting that. Either way, it looks to me like the orange line is the correct line, in any car. I think what they are trying to illustrate is that the white line car (without Brake Steer) understeers at corner entry, therefore missing the apex and subsequently running out of track at the exit (again with the exit also being hindered by lack of Brake Steer). But you would never take the white line intentionally, in any car (i.e. the white line car could take the correct orange line, just by slowing down). Therefore, I think they are showing that the 12C allows a higher cornering speed along the orange line than other cars. Not that there is a different line to take. Does that make sense?
 

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This simply looks like a very late apex to keep the turbos spooled. The white line makes no sense whatsoever.
It's not even a very late apex- it's the correct apex for that corner, assuming the following straight is of some considerable length. Apex any earlier and you won't be able to straighten out the exit and get back on the throttle early enough.
 

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Regarding the journos, I think some of them aren't adjusting because they don't realize that Brake Steer will help them line up the apex. Instead they are trying to charge the corner, brake late (and prolong the trail brake) to shift the weight onto the front wheels as much as possible to get the car to turn in. Most normal street cars, even supercars, require this technique to combat inherent understeer. If they realized that all they need to do is slow the car a bit less and then get right back on the gas as Brake Steer helps keep the line tight, they'd be quicker. On many corners, throttle application can begin even before the car reaches the apex. In a turbo car, the benefit of this is amplified.

I think the hydraulic suspension and Air Brake are also throwing some of them off, as it does not allow excessive pitch. Therefore, the sensation of weighting up the front wheels on corner entry is probably less. Some drivers really want to feel the car lean on the front outside wheel going into the corner. The 12C probably doesn't give you much of that sensation, more like a go kart.

All guesses, here. But I haven't seen anything yet that suggests otherwise.
 

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Regarding the journos, I think some of them aren't adjusting because they don't realize that Brake Steer will help them line up the apex. Instead they are trying to charge the corner, brake late (and prolong the trail brake) to shift the weight onto the front wheels as much as possible to get the car to turn in. Most normal street cars, even supercars, require this technique to combat inherent understeer. If they realized that all they need to do is slow the car a bit less and then get right back on the gas as Brake Steer helps keep the line tight, they'd be quicker. On many corners, throttle application can begin even before the car reaches the apex. In a turbo car, the benefit of this is amplified.

I think the hydraulic suspension and Air Brake are also throwing some of them off, as it does not allow excessive pitch. Therefore, the sensation of weighting up the front wheels on corner entry is probably less. Some drivers really want to feel the car lean on the front outside wheel going into the corner. The 12C probably doesn't give you much of that sensation, more like a go kart.

All guesses, here. But I haven't seen anything yet that suggests otherwise.
There is no sensation of pitch and weighting up of the front wheels as you brake for the corner,its very much like a go-kart.i found i could stand on the throttle just before the apex and throw the steering harder into the corner ,then it all happened and threw me out of the corner quicker than ive been before,with no loss of traction,admittedly it was a slow 100degree corner at an entry speed of maybe 30 mph or less
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Take your point that the white line is irrelevant and just there for illustration......missed that so I guess I'm a salesmen's delight.....Ron does it again!

Anyway I'm now a little confused......do you brake later and harder to use brake steer or is it the throttle re-application or a combination of both? Aw forget it I will go out and practice when my car turns up!

When I test drove the car on country roads the steering accuracy was brilliant but as Andy has pointed out no sensation of the front outside wheel weighting up. With brake steer you must feel the car yaw........this is what I would like to hear from owners - what is the sensation and outcome of B/S.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
For you Andy, just come on one of our to be arranged customer track/instruction days........it will be a snip.

( currently being planned)
 

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Anyway I'm now a little confused......do you brake later and harder to use brake steer or is it the throttle re-application or a combination of both?
I did not get the opportunity to trigger it on my limited test drive, but my assumption is that it will kick in any time that it is required to help the car follow the line being suggested by your steering input. This could happen at any phase of the turn, but as I mentioned before, I believe the biggest benefit will be when you are getting back on the throttle. As the weight shifts backwards again, the front tires lose contact patch and understeer results. Brake Steer, similar to a torque-vectoring differential system, will help keep the car turning and allow you to use as much throttle as possible without understeering off the track. It is not a new concept, really, but rather just a new way of accomplishing the same effect as a diff (i.e. the inside wheel has to travel a smaller distance, therefore is intermittently braked). Obviously, it will also stop the inside wheel from slipping under power on the exit, therefore improving traction and acceleration.

I remember reading once, I think a David Coulthard interview, where he said they were getting amazing results with it on the exit of slower corners in the Formula One car. This is when they had to trigger it manually with the extra pedal. In fact, I think Goodwin also used a manual method/pedal in the simulator and then they took his data to calibrate the automatic system in the real car. Part of the ESP system, I think, perhaps somebody can clarify.

edit: just realized I didn't really answer your question! I think you will experience it most often when you power out of a corner, as andy says, you are able to maintain a steering angle that normally would cause the car to push off line. Yes, it probably kicks in if you pile into a corner much too fast, but that is probably the less desirable way to explore it! As with all aids, if you are using it excessively, you are probably doing something wrong!
 

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Discussion Starter #13
6TH ELEMENT. Thanks, understood, good explanation. Guess that's why people are commenting about the amazing traction for a 2 wheel drive car ( always one wheel?) at 600bhp or whatever.

Roll on delivery.

Funny when on motorcycle training everybody agrees with the Coach THAT THEY DO NOT ENTER CORNERS TOO FAST.......same with cars as usually they leave the track on corner exit.
 

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It's not even a very late apex- it's the correct apex for that corner, assuming the following straight is of some considerable length. Apex any earlier and you won't be able to straighten out the exit and get back on the throttle early enough.
It does look late, there is still space left when the orange line tracks out. You should be able to apex earlier and keep more speed.
 

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6TH ELEMENT. Thanks, understood, good explanation. Guess that's why people are commenting about the amazing traction for a 2 wheel drive car ( always one wheel?) at 600bhp or whatever.

Roll on delivery.

Funny when on motorcycle training everybody agrees with the Coach THAT THEY DO NOT ENTER CORNERS TOO FAST.......same with cars as usually they leave the track on corner exit.
Yep, and the best thing is that traction is enhanced again by the hydraulic suspension. Because each wheel is truly independent, the contact patch is maximized even when there are bumps that would cause tires to skip on a car with ARBs.

There is so much traction that I think the biggest issue for customers is learning to respect the level of capabilities. As andy has shared, he can take his favourite corners significantly faster and still feel on complete control. So the car can rearrange your perception of physics, but it cannot bend the laws themselves. Whereas you may eventually lose it in a Porsche or Ferrari at say 50 mph, if the 12C's limit is 55 or 60, then that is 5-10 more excess mph to deal with when things go sideways (literally and figuratively). I know that is obvious, but important to keep in mind. This car has unprecedented cornering limits for a street car, but with that comes unprecedented potential for carnage if the limits are not respected.
 

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Like 6E, i think the diagram is supposed to illustrate, much later and harder braking and then being able to get on the power harder and earlier because of the brake steer.
When i was driving the car, the Mclaren employee told me in one corner that the "brake steer" was in full effect, and i couldn't even tell, i thought i just had amazing traction.
Thing of brake steer as Mercedes current ESP/4-matic on steroids. you can accomplish everything that locking and limited slip diff's achieve with out the added weight of such units. The brakes are already there, all you need are sensors and control units. I found it to be very unobtrusive, not like the traction control on other cars.
 

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As Senna says, my experience of the brake steer working for me whilst driving hard was that I was blissfully unaware of it and it just felt like I had phenomenal grip.

Rightly or wrongly, I would drive the orange line in any MR or FR car.
 
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