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MmmmcLaren
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Tiptronic's come a long ways...

... the GT3 at 3.3(s).
That truly numbs my mind to ponder, being "just" an NA powerplant w/o AWD/4WD nor any use-at-your-risk launch control wizardry. The newest-bestest PDK must be all that & then some...

I just wished it was possible to get a late-model (997/991) Targa S w/o "4"/AWD (ie. N/A C2S Targa vs. available C4S Targa)! With the ever-increasing 911 permutations, Stuttgart should make this happen... :D
 

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That truly numbs my mind to ponder, being "just" an NA powerplant w/o AWD/4WD nor any use-at-your-risk launch control wizardry. The newest-bestest PDK must be all that & then some...

I just wished it was possible to get a late-model (997/991) Targa S w/o "4"/AWD (ie. N/A C2S Targa vs. available C4S Targa)! With the ever-increasing 911 permutations, Stuttgart should make this happen... :D
I admit I am a bit infatuated with the GT3. It really does seem to be an amazing car. If I were to get a Porsche, it would either be that one or a Cayman turned into a tuned weapon-of-clean-driving-record-destruction :D

If the Jalopnik article below is right, it looks like you might get a chance to get your 991 Targa next year...

http://jalopnik.com/new-porsche-911-targa-has-a-super-trick-automatic-roof-1410798696

-nh4.
 

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OK, understand

I guess we may have different views on what is ' every way superior to the competition'.

What has Mclaren achieved so far against the mighty German Goliaths (GGths) and their like

1. Engine of the Year..........in no way inferior and in a lot of ways better and still to have direct injection.

2. Gearbox as good as the GGths

3. Suspension that is cosseting when needed and startling on track or at speed

4. A body style that is admired and a paint pallet that is far wider than the GGths

5. An interior simplicity that you like or see as rubbish compared with the GGths

6. Tyre wear that is class leading despite using cheap Italian tyres.

Now the rest of the car is , probably, ordinary. Well the doors are different and the petrol filler kind neat. Plus some of us have the SWIPE.

Too many niggles for some but brilliant customer service from both Mclaren and the distributor.........better than Porsche imop.

So the P13 has a decent base to call on but I agree it needs to shout out that it is better than the GGths.

I think it has a very good chance but this time next year we will know:eek:
Ok so if it so superior, why can i buy a 2012 coupe for £130k and a 2013 spyder for £175k with zero miles...?
 

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Over supply in a weak market. Very dissapointing and poor management judgement. Thats all I can conclude. We are stuffed.....,,but driving a fun car!
 

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I have to say I don't know where a P13 sits. The 991 Turbo and the GT3 (and we have not yet heard about GT2) have performance numbers near the 12C. Shouldn't the P13 outperform comparably-priced Porsches? But that puts the P13 near the 12C, so what will be the P13/12C distinction other than price? Finally, with 2012 12Cs to be had for say $180K US, who is going to pay anything near that for a P13?

I personally think many McLaren buyers did so because of the engineering and performance, not due to some kind of brand cachet. I sure would have bought a 458 if I wanted optimum brand cachet. So I honestly don't think McLaren sells P13s just because buyers somehow think it has more cachet than Porsche, and certainly not at any substantial premium in price.

I'll put it this way. I'd almost certainly rather have a 991 Turbo or GT2 than a lesser-performing P13, and I think the P13 has to be lesser-performing in order to have some distinction from the 12C.
 

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I have to say I don't know where a P13 sits. The 991 Turbo and the GT3 (and we have not yet heard about GT2) have performance numbers near the 12C. Shouldn't the P13 outperform comparably-priced Porsches? But that puts the P13 near the 12C, so what will be the P13/12C distinction other than price? Finally, with 2012 12Cs to be had for say $180K US, who is going to pay anything near that for a P13?

I personally think many McLaren buyers did so because of the engineering and performance, not due to some kind of brand cachet. I sure would have bought a 458 if I wanted optimum brand cachet. So I honestly don't think McLaren sells P13s just because buyers somehow think it has more cachet than Porsche, and certainly not at any substantial premium in price.

I'll put it this way. I'd almost certainly rather have a 991 Turbo or GT2 than a lesser-performing P13, and I think the P13 has to be lesser-performing in order to have some distinction from the 12C.
+1

Not convinced they know how this will plan out, it seems they just need the sales volume that this model will give them.....but at what cost?
 

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OK guys, lets test this. You have a choice between a high volume mass market Porsche or a uniquely engineered Maca at the same price or similar price........,come on , the low volume, fresh design only has to find 2500 customers World wide.....whereas the Porker has to find 20,000 customers.

Surely Mac can pull that off.

Forget the 12C that will take care of its self..,,,,better bhp, torque, price point etc


I do think in business it comes down to what is the best alternative. In some ways the failure of the 12C to attract sufficient demand, or weak demand, supports a lower price point product. Thus this debate is about if a lower cost Mac can sell against a 911 ........Turbo or not.........I sense it can because it will be low volume and have style with performance.
 

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OK guys, lets test this. You have a choice between a high volume mass market Porsche or a uniquely engineered Maca at the same price or similar price........,come on , the low volume, fresh design only has to find 2500 customers World wide.....whereas the Porker has to find 20,000 customers.

Surely Mac can pull that off.

Forget the 12C that will take care of its self..,,,,better bhp, torque, price point etc


I do think in business it comes down to what is the best alternative. In some ways the failure of the 12C to attract sufficient demand, or weak demand, supports a lower price point product. Thus this debate is about if a lower cost Mac can sell against a 911 ........Turbo or not.........I sense it can because it will be low volume and have style with performance.
So how much will it cost in the UK, what is the bhp? It wont have 991 turbo performance and that is £128k. It doesnt have the Mclaren badge, but it has a higher brand recognition, utmost reputation for build quality, 2 year servicing, and dealers in every major city. And there is also the GT3 which is even cheaper........So where will the P13 fit in?
 

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OK guys, lets test this. You have a choice between a high volume mass market Porsche or a uniquely engineered Maca at the same price or similar price........,come on , the low volume, fresh design only has to find 2500 customers World wide.....whereas the Porker has to find 20,000 customers.

Surely Mac can pull that off.

Forget the 12C that will take care of its self..,,,,better bhp, torque, price point etc


I do think in business it comes down to what is the best alternative. In some ways the failure of the 12C to attract sufficient demand, or weak demand, supports a lower price point product. Thus this debate is about if a lower cost Mac can sell against a 911 ........Turbo or not.........I sense it can because it will be low volume and have style with performance.
To this point... I said a few posts back I am a bit infatuated with the GT3 991 911, however, the car I hope to buy is a McLaren; either used 12c or new P13.

-nh4.
 

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So how much will it cost in the UK, what is the bhp? It wont have 991 turbo performance and that is £128k. It doesnt have the Mclaren badge, but it has a higher brand recognition, utmost reputation for build quality, 2 year servicing, and dealers in every major city. And there is also the GT3 which is even cheaper........So where will the P13 fit in?
Everything on what the P13 will be, and how much it will cost, is pretty much speculation... I think that is a luxury companies have by saying the product will be a "911 competitor". The 911 is such a wide range of product, it offers plenty of wiggle room.

I do agree an expanded dealer network would help juice the available market for them though!

-nh4.
 

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Don't forget that there are lots of buyers of multiple cars. It's not like McLaren has to sell a car to someone as their only car. People on here have contributed to sales for many brands at the same time.

P13 may be expensive, but it's not like 911s are cheap. A nice spec 991 is like $120-140K. There is plenty of room for people who want a more exclusive 911 and who can afford it. There are tons of people on the forums that have an exotic and a 911, or something competitive.

I'm not sure it will be the best bargain in terms dollars/performance, but the market is plenty big enough to support a great look, exclusive car. Especially if it only have to sell ~2500 per year. It's very doable. Audi entered the game out of nowhere with a rather expensive car, the R8, and that car was super popular and still is. They had no problem selling $130-180K R8s in decent volume.

As long as the car looks good and has reasonably high performance, it has the potential to sell well.

That said, they absolutely need to expand the dealer network. IMO the lack of dealers is what hurt the 12C most. They need to double down on that imo.



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+1

Not convinced they know how this will plan out, it seems they just need the sales volume that this model will give them.....but at what cost?
I suspect, not only is the 12C/S going up in performance, you can expect a price hike. Again, giving more headroom to the p13
 

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Don't forget that there are lots of buyers of multiple cars. It's not like McLaren has to sell a car to someone as their only car. People on here have contributed to sales for many brands at the same time.

P13 may be expensive, but it's not like 911s are cheap. A nice spec 991 is like $120-140K. There is plenty of room for people who want a more exclusive 911 and who can afford it. There are tons of people on the forums that have an exotic and a 911, or something competitive.

I'm not sure it will be the best bargain in terms dollars/performance, but the market is plenty big enough to support a great look, exclusive car. Especially if it only have to sell ~2500 per year. It's very doable. Audi entered the game out of nowhere with a rather expensive car, the R8, and that car was super popular and still is. They had no problem selling $130-180K R8s in decent volume.

As long as the car looks good and has reasonably high performance, it has the potential to sell well.

That said, they absolutely need to expand the dealer network. IMO the lack of dealers is what hurt the 12C most. They need to double down on that imo.
Really agree with a bunch of the posts here. But there is something else, on the track, the 12C is insane. Lambos can't keep up on the straights, much less the turns. The porsches are just not able to keep up. Granted, I haven't pitted myself against the new GT3, and granted, this is very driver dependent, but it hasn't been close. And a couple of fellas have tried REALLY hard to keep up, and later in the day came by and said the cars just couldn't keep pace (these were 997/GT3s, and a late model 570 lambo). And I'd like to claim it was my driving skills, but if anything, the 12C was kicking but despite my crap skills.

I wouldn't concentrate on the largely variable stats on 0-60, quarter mile, as both Porsche and McLaren sandbag there, and concentrate on track lap times as a good barometer (yes, I say this despite the P1 Ring marketing flub). And I'd go a step further and say the proof is in the hands of real owners. I suspect that a lot of the lap times we see from the car mags have a few issues, in that they put on crazy different tires and compare apples to oranges, which is meaningless, and some guys are Porsche familiar and so they know how to push a new GT3 better than how to drive a 12C that they have all of 5 minutes of familiarity with.

On the track, all the videos tell the tale. And the tale is that the 12C ruthlessly destroys the competition. It's a super car, with near, and in some cases better than, hyper car performance.

As always, YMMV.
 

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Really agree with a bunch of the posts here. But there is something else, on the track, the 12C is insane. Lambos can't keep up on the straights, much less the turns. The porsches are just not able to keep up. Granted, I haven't pitted myself against the new GT3, and granted, this is very driver dependent, but it hasn't been close. And a couple of fellas have tried REALLY hard to keep up, and later in the day came by and said the cars just couldn't keep pace (these were 997/GT3s, and a late model 570 lambo). And I'd like to claim it was my driving skills, but if anything, the 12C was kicking but despite my crap skills.

I wouldn't concentrate on the largely variable stats on 0-60, quarter mile, as both Porsche and McLaren sandbag there, and concentrate on track lap times as a good barometer (yes, I say this despite the P1 Ring marketing flub). And I'd go a step further and say the proof is in the hands of real owners. I suspect that a lot of the lap times we see from the car mags have a few issues, in that they put on crazy different tires and compare apples to oranges, which is meaningless, and some guys are Porsche familiar and so they know how to push a new GT3 better than how to drive a 12C that they have all of 5 minutes of familiarity with.

On the track, all the videos tell the tale. And the tale is that the 12C ruthlessly destroys the competition. It's a super car, with near, and in some cases better than, hyper car performance.

As always, YMMV.
+1 John,ive been harping on about this for years,we are slowly getting through :)
 

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In the motorcycle world 0-60 times are now considered irelevent since the 3 second mark was past as it is so dependent on factors that are rider/ weather variable......clutch and rev management, tyre temp and deflection etc. So 0-150 mph with time and exit speed which can vary so one bike can do 9.5 secs with 160mph exit speed and another bike 9.5 secs but 152mph exit speed.

What has this got to do with cars? Well 0-60 is becoming less easy to distinguish now that the 3 sec mark is achievable and 0-150 is a better measure of what? Grunt, gears, tyres, driver?????

For me it is no morethan an indicator of potential performance. I need to drive a car and like it's delivery of power, comfort and cornering ability........that is the key for me.......but for some it is on paper numbers and that's OK, vivre le difference ...
 

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Don't forget that there are lots of buyers of multiple cars. It's not like McLaren has to sell a car to someone as their only car. People on here have contributed to sales for many brands at the same time.

P13 may be expensive, but it's not like 911s are cheap. A nice spec 991 is like $120-140K. There is plenty of room for people who want a more exclusive 911 and who can afford it. There are tons of people on the forums that have an exotic and a 911, or something competitive.

I'm not sure it will be the best bargain in terms dollars/performance, but the market is plenty big enough to support a great look, exclusive car. Especially if it only have to sell ~2500 per year. It's very doable. Audi entered the game out of nowhere with a rather expensive car, the R8, and that car was super popular and still is. They had no problem selling $130-180K R8s in decent volume.

As long as the car looks good and has reasonably high performance, it has the potential to sell well.

That said, they absolutely need to expand the dealer network. IMO the lack of dealers is what hurt the 12C most. They need to double down on that imo.
Don't necessarily agree the P13 target market is necessarily going to be part of the market that has multiple cars. A fair number of 911 buyers buy the car either as the only car or their only sports car together with a daily driver as well. I think it is also possibly a mistake to take the overall 911 market as the potential market that can be tapped into for the P13. A lot of people buy 911s simply because they are 911s. To be fair, I suppose it is also possible that badge envy plays a part and some would want to buy another car simply because it is not a Porsche.

The P13 is likely to be in the price bracket of the GT3/Turbo and that is VERY stiff competition as Porsche with those 2 cars can both cover the number obsessed buyers as well as the driving enthuasiasts.
 

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Really agree with a bunch of the posts here. But there is something else, on the track, the 12C is insane. Lambos can't keep up on the straights, much less the turns. The porsches are just not able to keep up. Granted, I haven't pitted myself against the new GT3, and granted, this is very driver dependent, but it hasn't been close. And a couple of fellas have tried REALLY hard to keep up, and later in the day came by and said the cars just couldn't keep pace (these were 997/GT3s, and a late model 570 lambo). And I'd like to claim it was my driving skills, but if anything, the 12C was kicking but despite my crap skills.

I wouldn't concentrate on the largely variable stats on 0-60, quarter mile, as both Porsche and McLaren sandbag there, and concentrate on track lap times as a good barometer (yes, I say this despite the P1 Ring marketing flub). And I'd go a step further and say the proof is in the hands of real owners. I suspect that a lot of the lap times we see from the car mags have a few issues, in that they put on crazy different tires and compare apples to oranges, which is meaningless, and some guys are Porsche familiar and so they know how to push a new GT3 better than how to drive a 12C that they have all of 5 minutes of familiarity with.

On the track, all the videos tell the tale. And the tale is that the 12C ruthlessly destroys the competition. It's a super car, with near, and in some cases better than, hyper car performance.

As always, YMMV.
If Mclaren are thinking they will sell cars based on actual owners tracking their cars reasonably hard and finding they are for now faster than most other cars (which is hardly a like for like comparison as the Gallardo/997 GT3s are a generation of car behind the 12C), they are probably very sadly mistaken....
 

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If Mclaren are thinking they will sell cars based on actual owners tracking their cars reasonably hard and finding they are for now faster than most other cars (which is hardly a like for like comparison as the Gallardo/997 GT3s are a generation of car behind the 12C), they are probably very sadly mistaken....
ISV, agreed. I'm not trying to suggest that should be their marketing focus. Just that the overall stats of 0-60 being a close measure is not likely telling you the full story. Fair enough on the generation comment--but sadly that's all I've really run up against. That and a 458. The 458 didn't fair any better.

I suspect that in a go between the 991 GT3 and the 12C, the 12C would end up on top, despite the crappier tires, in the right hands. I could easily be wrong on this, but that's my suspicion till disproven.
 

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ISV, agreed. I'm not trying to suggest that should be their marketing focus. Just that the overall stats of 0-60 being a close measure is not likely telling you the full story. Fair enough on the generation comment--but sadly that's all I've really run up against. That and a 458. The 458 didn't fair any better.

I suspect that in a go between the 991 GT3 and the 12C, the 12C would end up on top, despite the crappier tires, in the right hands. I could easily be wrong on this, but that's my suspicion till disproven.
Being 2x the price when new and having a 100+hp advantage, the 12c really should be faster. However, as far as I'm concerned at least that's neither here nor there. Not being a racing driver so absolute laptime is not of consequence, how much does it really matter whether one necessarily has a faster car on track than others?
 
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