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MmmmcLaren
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Kinda makes sense to peg the 12C at the 911 Turbo in terms of performance/handling and base-price, as-per the likelihood of an upmarket mid-engine "exotic" Porsche model slotted alongside the 458, 12C, Gallardo, etc.

Is there any traction or truth to the mid/rear Porsche offering?
 

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I think this car (P13) is wrong for Mclaren. It shouldnt be in this sector, and may well fare badly against the new R8, BMW i8, new mid engined Mercedes, and NSX in terms of reliabilty, running costs, accessability to dealers. The only reason why Mclaren need this car is for increased profitability and to achieve sales volume, but in essence they are selling out. At this rate expect an SUV by 2016.....
 

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I think this car (P13) is wrong for Mclaren. It shouldnt be in this sector, and may well fare badly against the new R8, BMW i8, new mid engined Mercedes, and NSX in terms of reliabilty, running costs, accessability to dealers. The only reason why Mclaren need this car is for increased profitability and to achieve sales volume, but in essence they are selling out. At this rate expect an SUV by 2016.....
Well, if they didn't plan on a P13 you wouldn't have a 12C to begin with. Given how capital intensive it is, who would invest money to build a 12C if the only outcome was breaking even every year?



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Selling out by building another amazing sports car - hmmm, that's a new one...

>8^)
ER
 

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I think they're going to have to really pull out the stops on this one.

To really differentiate themselves I think they should launch with a spider instead of releasing it a few years later like the 12C.

Performance is going to be a really tough sell if they purposely gimp it so it doesn't compete with the 12C. A 911 turbo is already faster than a 12C, both in a straight line (0.1 seconds faster to 100km) and around a track (2 seconds faster around the ring).

I'm really excited about this car because I know what McLaren stands for: simplicity, elegance and racing heritage with form following function. But I think to capture the average buyer they're really going to have to hit this one out of the park, just being exclusive isn't going to be enough.
 

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Mark Antar Design
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I think they're going to have to really pull out the stops on this one.

To really differentiate themselves I think they should launch with a spider instead of releasing it a few years later like the 12C.

Performance is going to be a really tough sell if they purposely gimp it so it doesn't compete with the 12C. A 911 turbo is already faster than a 12C, both in a straight line (0.1 seconds faster to 100km) and around a track (2 seconds faster around the ring).

I'm really excited about this car because I know what McLaren stands for: simplicity, elegance and racing heritage with form following function. But I think to capture the average buyer they're really going to have to hit this one out of the park, just being exclusive isn't going to be enough.
The 12C (pre-updated) was driven by HVS for just 2 laps (warm-up lap and a hot lap), while the Turbo was driven by a Porsche factory driver!
 

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To further that argument,the McLaren factory driver was posting 7.20 on a regular basis during testing,this may be rumour to 99.9% of people ,but it did come from the factory to many owners,but like the P1 they decided not to release a time.(yes ,we know about the accident,but that also proves nothing )
What tends to prove things are the many 12c owners who take their car to a track and take out anything that is a standard spec,and even those few vids of them taking out challenge cars on slicks !!!
 

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Well, if they didn't plan on a P13 you wouldn't have a 12C to begin with. Given how capital intensive it is, who would invest money to build a 12C if the only outcome was breaking even every year?
Way too much competition in the P13 sector for Mclaren from giants such as Audi, Mercedes, Honda etc, with huge budgets and resources - not to mention very slick marketing departments....With the 12C the only competition was an inferior Ferrari, and we and the Market know how that turned out....

They cant compete in this segment.
 

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Way too much competition in the P13 sector for Mclaren from giants such as Audi, Mercedes, Honda etc, with huge budgets and resources - not to mention very slick marketing departments....With the 12C the only competition was an inferior Ferrari, and we and the Market know how that turned out....

They cant compete in this segment.
Andrew,they don't need to compete,they only want to sell 2500 per annum, world wide ,the racing pedigree will see to that,remember 90% of owners buy on name rather than pure performance,if its near enough that will do,its Pub snobbery,what do you drive ???? :)
 

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The issue for me is how BIG is the P13 segment?

Pre financial crash it was growing fast and well over 20,000 units per annum......30,000 is a number that jogs out of my memory.

So 2500 units is still a small number going forwards as demand recovers......thats say 800 to Europe, 1600 to Asia and 100 to America ( they can afford the 12C).

So if 1/3 of output is shared across Europe it is very do-able imop.

But I know nothing.....other than the P13 will sell, so fast, on exclusivity and engineering/performance attributes.

The Porkers/Mercs/Audi/Honda's will also sell but to Mr Safehands and Mrs BIG Sunglasses.

ps The P13 will sell to Mr Showoff and Mr Letshavefundriving
 

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Andrew, I'm not sure I understand 'they can't compete in this segment'

Is your judgement based on financial muscle or return on capital?

The BIG manufacturer do have lots of cash but also many demands for cash so they have priorities and it tends to be the volume part of their business that wins arguments......OK they can have loss leading Brand builders like the Veron and , I'm not sure of other loss leaders.

Regarding return on capital then they all have to meet lenders/stock market returns unless privately held Here Mclaren have the advantage of no manufacturing investment in machinery, working capital etc as a pure assembly screwdriver operation. Thus they trade off gross margin on parts production against investment in machinery. The selling price premium is probably critical to margin management......but I guess.

So if they want to build a sustainable auto company they have to have a 3 model range ( justifies and occupies the necessary overhead) and the P13, 12C, P1 seems the best alternative until the MacCayenne hits the mud.
 

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Andrew, I'm not sure I understand 'they can't compete in this segment'

Is your judgement based on financial muscle or return on capital?

The BIG manufacturer do have lots of cash but also many demands for cash so they have priorities and it tends to be the volume part of their business that wins arguments......OK they can have loss leading Brand builders like the Veron and , I'm not sure of other loss leaders.

Regarding return on capital then they all have to meet lenders/stock market returns unless privately held Here Mclaren have the advantage of no manufacturing investment in machinery, working capital etc as a pure assembly screwdriver operation. Thus they trade off gross margin on parts production against investment in machinery. The selling price premium is probably critical to margin management......but I guess.

So if they want to build a sustainable auto company they have to have a 3 model range ( justifies and occupies the necessary overhead) and the P13, 12C, P1 seems the best alternative until the MacCayenne hits the mud.
I am concerned that up against the huge financial and technical muscle of the German manufacturers, Mclaren will struggle to produce a product which is in every way superior to the competition. That is my definition of success. It has to be less than £x, it has to have less power than the 12C and it has to be slower than it too. How will all this be achieved against this very high calibre competition? I can see why Mclaren needs it, but that doesn't make it right for the Mclaren brand - in my view it devalues it. They should stick with high end, extreme and uncompromising cars.
 

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MmmmcLaren
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The P13 will likely hallmark features that won't be offered on others in the segment, such as: carbon/composite tub, hydraulic suspension, advanced aero & electronics, by-hand fabrication/assembly, bespoke build ala MSO, McLaren notoriety, etc.

And with regards to 911 Turbo variants (base, S, GT2/RS offerings) & their seemingly spectacular 0-60 splits, there's a lot more to that whole spiel as the 12C can unarguably attest to that. There's no comparison (for the most part) on any/all tracks of interest as well as driving dynamics, visceral feeling, and general motoring experience. At least from my viewpoint. Not to mention the 911 Turbo is a highly optimized, tuned Carrera in-essence. Namely, a significantly down-market platform relative to the 12C. Not to sound elitist or anything, as I'm a Porsche'phile of sorts, but in all honesty there's literally no worthwhile comparison between the Turbo & 12C, for me. The air that the 12C rolls in is exclusive to the R8 V10, Gallardo, and 458. A $200k+ 911 offering plausibly can be cross-shopped by some, I suppose.

But yea- given the prowess, performance, and potential of the 911 Turbo variants, the P13 will absolutely have to be at/near par in terms of performance/handling.

Also worthwhile to mention that the P13 will bring a lot of "new" high-performance sportscar buyers into the near-exotic pool who would otherwise be looking at ~$150k Gran Turismos, Vantages, SLs, and the like. There's at least 10x as many buyers at/near $150k'ish than at $250k'ish & beyond.
 

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Even if the 12c stays where it is in terms of performance, I think there is room for the P13. Somewhere (it may have been a page or two back in this thread actually) there was a discussion on targeting the 911 and, given the breadth of the range, it makes for a pretty wide spectrum of performance.

I think McLaren have proven that they are very adept at making a car that can go very quick around a track, on the road, and in a straight line. The P13 will likely pull a lot of its design from the P1 which is loaded with aerodynamic trickery that should keep the "very fast" bits and "very agile" bits intact.

If memory serves, a P1 will get from 0-60 in 2.8 seconds, and a 12c in roughly 3.2. If a p13 comes in at 3.5, it's still quicker than any 911 outside of the turbo and the GT3. In fact, outside of the turbo and GT3, other 911 flavors are over 4.0 seconds... Please don't take this as me saying 0-60 is the only thing that matters, it isn't, but it is a benchmark.

On the business side, re-using bits from the P1 and 12c for the P13 drops R&D cost, and gives some economy of scale even if we're still only talking a few thousand cars a year across the whole line-up.

I do see the risk of a lot of different manufacturers all coming at the 911 market at once. This was mentioned a bit ago as well... There likely will be some casualties. I'm optimistic that McLaren will be able to sell out of the P13 allocation, and meet their profitability targets.
 

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MmmmcLaren
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What is the purported (and/or reported) 0-60 for the latest-greatest GT3? GT3 RS 4.0?

Both very challenging to live with on a day-to-day basis and/or even driving to & from the track. Unless you're a masochist. For which there's nothing wrong w/ that! :D

The usability of the 12C is such a notable & priceless selling-point that can't be mentioned enough. And I believe the P1 will introduce this hallmark to the hypercar niche...
 

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I am concerned that up against the huge financial and technical muscle of the German manufacturers, Mclaren will struggle to produce a product which is in every way superior to the competition. That is my definition of success. It has to be less than £x, it has to have less power than the 12C and it has to be slower than it too. How will all this be achieved against this very high calibre competition? I can see why Mclaren needs it, but that doesn't make it right for the Mclaren brand - in my view it devalues it. They should stick with high end, extreme and uncompromising cars.
OK, understand

I guess we may have different views on what is ' every way superior to the competition'.

What has Mclaren achieved so far against the mighty German Goliaths (GGths) and their like

1. Engine of the Year..........in no way inferior and in a lot of ways better and still to have direct injection.

2. Gearbox as good as the GGths

3. Suspension that is cosseting when needed and startling on track or at speed

4. A body style that is admired and a paint pallet that is far wider than the GGths

5. An interior simplicity that you like or see as rubbish compared with the GGths

6. Tyre wear that is class leading despite using cheap Italian tyres.

Now the rest of the car is , probably, ordinary. Well the doors are different and the petrol filler kind neat. Plus some of us have the SWIPE.

Too many niggles for some but brilliant customer service from both Mclaren and the distributor.........better than Porsche imop.

So the P13 has a decent base to call on but I agree it needs to shout out that it is better than the GGths.

I think it has a very good chance but this time next year we will know:eek:
 

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What is the purported (and/or reported) 0-60 for the latest-greatest GT3? GT3 RS 4.0?
Porsche website has the Turbo 0-60 at 3.2 and the GT3 at 3.3. Given Porsche history, they might be a bit quicker than the advertised numbers. They are certainly capable cars, but I'd still rather a P13, even if it is a few 1/10s slower :D

-nh4.
 
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