McLaren Life banner

181 - 200 of 832 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
123 Posts
I visited the MTC last week, and had a chance to speak with Frank some more. All I can share are the following quotes about the P13:

"The project is just about to be signed off, and spy shots will be released soon"

"The new car makes the P1 look boring"

"If I was spending my own money on a car, this is the one that I'd buy"


It's going to be a great few years for McLaren!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,925 Posts
Well, to use your own logic, ISV, the 12c is now a generation older than the 991gt3, so if it's still faster, that's a feather in the cap of mclarwn. Especially since the car is incredibly hampered by the pzeros.

The number one important factor on the track is diver skill. A great driver can probably beat me in a civic. Then next is car balance/grip/suspension/power. So it certainly an important factor. Power by itself, without great handling, is of limited use, IMO. But I'll let others with more experience chime in here, and defer to their greater experience. Thinking of McDc here. Any thoughts McDc?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,325 Posts
Well, to use your own logic, ISV, the 12c is now a generation older than the 991gt3, so if it's still faster, that's a feather in the cap of mclarwn. Especially since the car is incredibly hampered by the pzeros.
Well the 12c is probably half a generation behind the 991 gt3 but not insignifcantly is still 2x the price... so is hardly a like for like comparison is it?

you did say earlier ""On the track, all the videos tell the tale. And the tale is that the 12C ruthlessly destroys the competition""

and I repeat my earlier question...

""Not being a racing driver so absolute laptime is not of consequence, how much does it really matter whether one necessarily has a faster car on track than others? ""
 

·
Mark Antar Design
Joined
·
1,870 Posts
I visited the MTC last week, and had a chance to speak with Frank some more. All I can share are the following quotes about the P13:

"The project is just about to be signed off, and spy shots will be released soon"

"The new car makes the P1 look boring"

"If I was spending my own money on a car, this is the one that I'd buy"


It's going to be a great few years for McLaren!
Haha, very interesting. Can't wait for them to unveil it! :)
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,449 Posts
Well the 12c is probably half a generation behind the 991 gt3 but not insignifcantly is still 2x the price... so is hardly a like for like comparison is it?

you did say earlier ""On the track, all the videos tell the tale. And the tale is that the 12C ruthlessly destroys the competition""

and I repeat my earlier question...

""Not being a racing driver so absolute laptime is not of consequence, how much does it really matter whether one necessarily has a faster car on track than others? ""
Buying any of these cars is incredibly subjective. If going fast were the only thing that mattered, no one would buy any of them and there would be a lot of tricked out Miatas, STis, and other much cheaper and can-be-made-to-be-crazy-fast cars burning up the streets. I had looked into what could be done to previous generation Caymans and some of the mods were crazy. When I had my M3 the shop I took it to was an installer for a supercharger kit that would have turned that car into a monster...

When it comes to a GT3, a P13, or any of the other choices in that range, I think it really comes down to the list of things the buyer has in his / her head, and the priorities assigned to those things. There are a bunch of very good reasons to buy a GT3, v10 R8, Nissan GT-R, Corvette, which ever. There are a few guys here that went from R8 to 12c, and at least one that's gone from Corvette to 12c. I'm sure there are some folks that traded out of a 12c for something else... I know there is a used one for sale at a Ferrari dealer near by.

-nh4.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
239 Posts
OK guys, lets test this. You have a choice between a high volume mass market Porsche or a uniquely engineered Maca at the same price or similar price........,come on , the low volume, fresh design only has to find 2500 customers World wide.....whereas the Porker has to find 20,000 customers.

Surely Mac can pull that off.

Forget the 12C that will take care of its self..,,,,better bhp, torque, price point etc


I do think in business it comes down to what is the best alternative. In some ways the failure of the 12C to attract sufficient demand, or weak demand, supports a lower price point product. Thus this debate is about if a lower cost Mac can sell against a 911 ........Turbo or not.........I sense it can because it will be low volume and have style with performance.
Not me. I buy on the merits of the car. For example, I am presently driving my 2008 Z06 and remain astounded at how close it is to the 12C in performance at truly a fraction of the price. I honestly don't car if there are 20,000 of them running around each year.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,177 Posts
Well the 12c is probably half a generation behind the 991 gt3 but not insignifcantly is still 2x the price... so is hardly a like for like comparison is it?

you did say earlier ""On the track, all the videos tell the tale. And the tale is that the 12C ruthlessly destroys the competition""

and I repeat my earlier question...

""Not being a racing driver so absolute laptime is not of consequence, how much does it really matter whether one necessarily has a faster car on track than others? ""
Not sure what you mean by 1/2 a generation behind??? Engine,cf tub,suspension,gearbox,STYLING,air brake,new iris:rolleyes:driving position,bit confused isv,help me out on this ?
 

·
MmmmcLaren
Joined
·
1,375 Posts
Am I the only one (and/or in the distinct minority) in thinking that a 911 GT3 is more of a "special edition" iteration of the Carrera model, more track-focused than a balanced roadcar-trackcar? I feel other 911 variants are more comparable to what the 12C & P13 represent.

The rev-happy engine & bone-jarring suspension on the GT3s make it a challenge to enjoy on most roadways & urban settings. With that said, it's indeed sublime on the track/roadcourse.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
239 Posts
Am I the only one (and/or in the distinct minority) in thinking that a 911 GT3 is more of a "special edition" iteration of the Carrera model, more track-focused than a balanced roadcar-trackcar? I feel other 911 variants are more comparable to what the 12C & P13 represent.

The rev-happy engine & bone-jarring suspension on the GT3s make it a challenge to enjoy on most roadways & urban settings. With that said, it's indeed sublime on the track/roadcourse.
You have a point, but the 991 Turbo S would seem a proper benchmark with a P13 and I don't see how a P13 outperforms it without also having performance on par with a12C.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,325 Posts
Not me. I buy on the merits of the car. ..... I honestly don't care if there are 20,000 of them running around each year.
+1

Not sure what you mean by 1/2 a generation behind??? Engine,cf tub,suspension,gearbox,STYLING,air brake,new iris:rolleyes:driving position,bit confused isv,help me out on this ?
I meant it more in terms of timeline. the 458 sits about the same as the 12c, the 430 is contemporary with the 997 etc... however... now that you mention it though, in engineering terms cf tub apart they probably are fairly close.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,252 Posts
found this on the web, and while i realize it says "F1 successor," I'd like to think that would make a pretty slick looking entry level car. I know it's just a random rendering, but aside from the LaF headlights, it does well to incorporate the McLaren DNA.

I'm sorry but that just looks horrible
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,252 Posts
The only thing that is McLaren is the F1 style side vents, other than that it just looks like an F1 on steroids from a boy racers wet dream, if it looked anything liked that I'd rather buy a 911, but it's just my opinion though, that yellow crappy render just looks like the front has melted
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
You have a point, but the 991 Turbo S would seem a proper benchmark with a P13 and I don't see how a P13 outperforms it without also having performance on par with a12C.
I think that's my biggest concern, especially if the car is close to 200k. I really hope it's closer to 125k and has performance similar to other cars in the same segment (or higher). Mostly because I don't want McLaren to go the way of Lotus. As I mentioned earlier I'm already sold, they'd have to really muck it up for me not to own one eventually.

And I agree entirely with nh4 in that buying a car is based on a lot of factors, and really should be all about the overall experience.

But people rarely buy on experience, most of the time they've already made up their mind based on specs on a piece of paper or reviews by a journalist that may or may not know what they are talking about.
 

·
McLaren Fanatic
Joined
·
3,071 Posts
Even at the higher volumes I think they would struggle to bring a complete package with the carbon chassis in at under $150K - I expect the price to be in the range between that and $200K, higher with a host of preferred options.

>8^)
ER
 

·
Owner
Joined
·
544 Posts
Even at the higher volumes I think they would struggle to bring a complete package with the carbon chassis in at under $150K - I expect the price to be in the range between that and $200K, higher with a host of preferred options.

>8^)
ER
That means that the 12c has to move up but in its current state it doesnt justify such a move. You need a new 12c to be 700bhp and far more exciting styling to do that. So really cant see what the P13 will bring to the table when by 2015 you will be able to buy a used 12c for £100k....:confused:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,955 Posts
It's easy to forget that the Mclaren Automotive business is a commercial venture that needs to make a return in order to invest and satisfy shareholders.

When the cost of a Ferrari 430 was £120k demand exceeded supply and the virtuous circle of high residual and excessive demand was established. Ferrari experienced growth as the market demand for cars in this bracket grew rapidly from around 2001 until the crash.

Ferrari then decided, in order to grow and not threaten model exclusivity, to launch the California. Their dilemma was that this model needed to be priced at a point that made a margin (high) but did not replace or substitute the soon to launch 458. The cost of producing a California and 458 are similar so pricing the 458 at £ 180k created the room to price the California at £130 or whatever.

What Ferrari and Mclaren have discovered is the the market will not sustain demand at £180k at the volumes they planned. Hence Ferrari have reduced output on the 458 and the 12C has passed its peak.

Thus Mclaren have announced the P13 will be priced at £120k ,the old 430 price level, judging this will create demand in excess of supply and support residuals to create a virtuous circle

Which 911 model it will compete with will be revealed but it must, surely, be the volume basic Turbo (if that is the volume derivative).

I think Mclaren have to adjust to this market reality and their approach to the P13 pricing indicates this. The cars performance envelope can be whatever they decide but I expect it to be of the highest level with the 12C moving up and onwards.

I really find it a struggle waiting for the launch of P13............exciting times ahead.
 

·
Owner
Joined
·
544 Posts
It's easy to forget that the Mclaren Automotive business is a commercial venture that needs to make a return in order to invest and satisfy shareholders.

When the cost of a Ferrari 430 was £120k demand exceeded supply and the virtuous circle of high residual and excessive demand was established. Ferrari experienced growth as the market demand for cars in this bracket grew rapidly from around 2001 until the crash.

Ferrari then decided, in order to grow and not threaten model exclusivity, to launch the California. Their dilemma was that this model needed to be priced at a point that made a margin (high) but did not replace or substitute the soon to launch 458. The cost of producing a California and 458 are similar so pricing the 458 at £ 180k created the room to price the California at £130 or whatever.

What Ferrari and Mclaren have discovered is the the market will not sustain demand at £180k at the volumes they planned. Hence Ferrari have reduced output on the 458 and the 12C has passed its peak.

Thus Mclaren have announced the P13 will be priced at £120k ,the old 430 price level, judging this will create demand in excess of supply and support residuals to create a virtuous circle

Which 911 model it will compete with will be revealed but it must, surely, be the volume basic Turbo (if that is the volume derivative).

I think Mclaren have to adjust to this market reality and their approach to the P13 pricing indicates this. The cars performance envelope can be whatever they decide but I expect it to be of the highest level with the 12C moving up and onwards.

I really find it a struggle waiting for the launch of P13............exciting times ahead.
Good points.

My view is that the 12C in its current state is not a £180-200k car and the market has so far proved this. The 12C should have stuck with its original planned price of £150k, residuals would have held, and the brand would benefit. That way it could bring out the P13 at £100k and really make an impact.

My view is that by the time you spec a P13 it will be £140k and that is too high for a junior 12C. But on the other hand they only need to find 2500 sales worldwide, and to hell with residuals...but for how long can they play this game??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,955 Posts
Good points.

My view is that the 12C in its current state is not a £180-200k car and the market has so far proved this. The 12C should have stuck with its original planned price of £150k, residuals would have held, and the brand would benefit. That way it could bring out the P13 at £100k and really make an impact.

My view is that by the time you spec a P13 it will be £140k and that is too high for a junior 12C. But on the other hand they only need to find 2500 sales worldwide, and to hell with residuals...but for how long can they play this game??
As long as you and I are around:D
 
181 - 200 of 832 Posts
Top