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really, you need to read that again. Doing a limited run of a car that doesnt excel in anything doesnt make it a hypercar. And with all due respect, you are obviously entitled to your opinion but i have no idea what you are basing your views on. I clearly have no idea what i am talking about, having owned a Speedtail and found it severely lacking, and still own a P1 and Senna and some others.
Do you think its top speed is limited because mclaren decided that 251 was enough, or because the car would be unsafe above that? tyres, suspension, lack of downforce etc etc. i have a bridge to sell in brooklyn if you believe the first..
Chris makes a tv show that needs to sound appealing, i'll leave it at that.
Good.
 

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When it's not in the workshop...
View attachment 224855
thats where I see them mostly or at my dealer for display (resale) ... but I never see them doing GT car stuff (like cruising around, being parked at fancy hotels/locations, or seeing videos driving down highways) so basically not exactly doing what they were designed for ;-)
 
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I must say that I am quite curious where Ferrari aim to take their next hypercar. Is it gonna be a V12, V8, V6 even? Is it gonna be RWD or AWD? How streetable is it gonna be? Ferrari are quite good at keeping the cards close to their chest and right now it could still go anywhere.

The AWD hybrid architecture with the engine in the middle powering rear wheels and electric motors powering front wheels makes, in my opinion, the most sense for a hybrid supercar/hypercar. You get good 0-60, 1/4 mile numbers because of superior traction (and generally a car that is able to handle all 1000hp+ it will certainly have) and you can get the most out of your brake regen. However, in Ferrari's case, they already have that with the SF90. And with the upcoming SF90 VS I don't think there would be large enough gap between the two cars for the price and exclusivity difference to be justifiable.

That said, it might be justifiable if instead of the TT V8 it gets a V12. The problem with that, however, is that the V12 is quite big and heavy, making the packaging and cooling a real challenge. That's one of the reasons why the LaFerrari ended up weighing almost 1600kg. They had to make the car unnecessarily big - and that's even without front electric motors. The question also is, would doing yet another hybrid V12 hypercar, a second one in a row, be special enough?

Yet another possibility, with the LMH car now being revealed, is that their next hypercar will use a TT V6! At first sight this might not make much sense - after all, the prestige of a model has long been determined by the number of cylinders, especially in Ferrari-land - but it would make sense if their next hypercar was a lot more track focused than previous models - more akin to the AM Valkyrie.

While contrary to the PR statements that the next hypercar will see "a technology transfer from LMH and F1" there will be pretty much no technology or parts sharing of any kind, one thing that might get shared is the engine. For the LMH car Ferrari took their 2.9L TT V6 they are also using in the 296 GTB and, apart from tuning it, made it fully structural. This is pretty much a requirement for a race car, but now with Ferrari having the structural block for the engine, would they use it for their hypercar? On it's own a TT V6 wouldn't be regarded as being prestigious enough, but if it was to be seen as a racing engine coming straight from the LMH, and the whole car was positioned as a race car for the road, that might just work.

The only problem with that strategy, really, is that on the whole Ferrari has been moving away from the more extreme models. The F50 and the Enzo were loud, hot and very raw. The LaFerrari, on the other hand was much more usable and streetable. Having the engine be fully structural - same as on the Valkyrie - has a lot of disadvantages when it comes to noise, comfort and vibrations. So if they were gonna use the engine, going the "race car for the road" route would be the only option - and then the comparison to the Valkyrie would be inevitable. The thing is, regardless of how watered down the Valkyrie spec got, it would still require a huge amount of effort (and money) trying to beat it around a track and the resulting car wouldn't be any more usable than the Valkyrie is. So I have some doubts that Ferrari would choose to go that way.

So what do I think they'll ultimately do? Honestly, despite priding myself on often being able to guess correctly, I have no clue! 😄
From what has been said it seems (and I hope) in terms of concept it will be close to Valkyrie but with a Project One level engine (maybe LMH structural engine plus pre-chamber combustion from F1?). And electric motors in the front. With the new leadership its inevitable.

Also I'll wager on Ferrari engineers solving the ergonomic and NVH issues that Aston/Red Bull failed to figure out. So far I think the LaFerrari is the only car that has successfully done the mold the seat into the monocoque design successfully (and apparently the Daytona is supposed to be even better). Additionally if Ferrari can figure out how to pipe in favorable engine noises into the cabin surely they can figure out how to isolate some of them? One solution I can think of is adapting the technology from active engine mounts to make active harmonic dampeners to isolate different frequencies throughout the rev range.
 

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Also I'll wager on Ferrari engineers solving the ergonomic and NVH issues that Aston/Red Bull failed to figure out. So far I think the LaFerrari is the only car that has successfully done the mold the seat into the monocoque design successfully (and apparently the Daytona is supposed to be even better). Additionally if Ferrari can figure out how to pipe in favorable engine noises into the cabin surely they can figure out how to isolate some of them? One solution I can think of is adapting the technology from active engine mounts to make active harmonic dampeners to isolate different frequencies throughout the rev range.
Well, that's the thing, with a fully structural engine, you get to have no engine dampers or active mounts. It's bolted straight to the tub. That's the only way to keep the structure rigid. Introduce mounts of any kind and the whole car would flex like crazy. So effectively there is no way to reduce noise or vibrations. It's an all in strategy. If you do do that, you are stuck with a race car for the road no matter what you do. The consideration then is, once you have this road compromised car, you need something to make up for its lack of road manners - and that has to be outright speed. So you end up with a Valkyrie competitor whether you want to or not and now must beat it. If you do, great, but if not the car will be a straight up failure - and since lap times are so objective everyone will immediately see that. A very risky strategy and you'll have a car that your customers might not necessarily want!
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
Well, that's the thing, with a fully structural engine, you get to have no engine dampers or active mounts. It's bolted straight to the tub. That's the only way to keep the structure rigid. Introduce mounts of any kind and the whole car would flex like crazy. So effectively there is no way to reduce noise or vibrations. It's an all in strategy. If you do do that, you are stuck with a race car for the road no matter what you do. The consideration then is, once you have this road compromised car, you need something to make up for its lack of road manners - and that has to be outright speed. So you end up with a Valkyrie competitor whether you want to or not and now must beat it. If you do, great, but if not the car will be a straight up failure - and since lap times are so objective everyone will immediately see that. A very risky strategy and you'll have a car that your customers might not necessarily want!
Any value in adding noise cancellation technology to the cabin? Also could the cabin be partially ‘isolated’ from the chassis by using some form of cabin active damping mounts? Some weight penalty for comfort ….
 

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So, it's a hypercar then. By, your definition. So we agree.

And also the top speed is actually limited to 250MPH and it's aerodynamics are peerless. McLaren never released certain numbers. Drag co efficiency etc. It's possible to atleast work them out.

Chris's Harris described the experience of driving one versus the experience in a Bugatti Chiron in Top Gear years ago. The numbers back this up. Club versus knife or something along those lines.

It's top speed is minimally plus+ 20MPH higher and no hypercar are driven at those speeds anyway. By anyone.

And there's no need to take a GT on the track. Some of the owners I'm positive will have McLaren Senna's too. And it's production records top dog currently.

Anyway if Bugatti Chiron levels of acceleration nearly isn't quick enough then I don't know what it is.

And a central location seater on top? Game set and match.🙂

There's no hybrid like it, for me individually. Because it doesn't exist.
is it too much to assume that you never owned one or even drove in one ?
 

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I still don’t get what they wanted to make with that car … Philip and the other guys (you know the story I guess ) first idea about a F1 v2 was way more Mclaren and way more fitting than the 3 seater luxury bus without trunk space ;)
To be fair the F1x was a good concept and it made some sense to make it more commercially viable by expanding the customer base. Some of the original participants accepted this, some did not and withdrew. The speedtail as it ended up, from any perspective, would not have been anyone’s idea of a car, let alone one that might have the hyper prefix.
 

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To be fair the F1x was a good concept and it made some sense to make it more commercially viable by expanding the customer base. Some of the original participants accepted this, some did not and withdrew. The speedtail as it ended up, from any perspective, would not have been anyone’s idea of a car, let alone one that might have the hyper prefix.
the idea would have been 100% pure McLaren DNA, unlike the 400kph whale... doing the whole design/concept with GM would have resulted in probably the Uber Hypercar of its time (3-4y ago) ... just like F1 was 25y ago
 

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Any value in adding noise cancellation technology to the cabin? Also could the cabin be partially ‘isolated’ from the chassis by using some form of cabin active damping mounts? Some weight penalty for comfort ….
Well, you have some interesting ideas... Isolating the cabin instead, if it could work at all, would definitely be a lot more complicated and with a worse weight penalty than just isolating the engine in a sub-frame as everyone does.

I don't know about noise cancellation. The Valkyrie comes with noise cancelling headphones, but who knows how well those work and there might be some legal problems with that in some countries as well. If we were talking about getting rid of the noise by normal means by soundproofing the cabin, that might work to an extent, but ultimately it's quite hard to do because, again, as the engine is mounted directly to the chassis, the sound can travel straight through the rigid parts - so soundproofing is much less effective.
 

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Well, you have some interesting ideas... Isolating the cabin instead, if it could work at all, would definitely be a lot more complicated and with a worse weight penalty than just isolating the engine in a sub-frame as everyone does.

I don't know about noise cancellation. The Valkyrie comes with noise cancelling headphones, but who knows how well those work and there might be some legal problems with that in some countries as well. If we were talking about getting rid of the noise by normal means by soundproofing the cabin, that might work to an extent, but ultimately it's quite hard to do because, again, as the engine is mounted directly to the chassis, the sound can travel straight through the rigid parts - so soundproofing is much less effective.
Why are noise cancelling headphones necessary with a car that doesn't actually run??
 

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Well, that's the thing, with a fully structural engine, you get to have no engine dampers or active mounts. It's bolted straight to the tub. That's the only way to keep the structure rigid. Introduce mounts of any kind and the whole car would flex like crazy. So effectively there is no way to reduce noise or vibrations. It's an all in strategy. If you do do that, you are stuck with a race car for the road no matter what you do. The consideration then is, once you have this road compromised car, you need something to make up for its lack of road manners - and that has to be outright speed. So you end up with a Valkyrie competitor whether you want to or not and now must beat it. If you do, great, but if not the car will be a straight up failure - and since lap times are so objective everyone will immediately see that. A very risky strategy and you'll have a car that your customers might not necessarily want!
I'm not talking about using an active engine mount but using the technology behind them (variable stiffness rubber dampers) to build frequency isolators/harmonic dampeners attached to structures such as the cam covers and block interfacing the engine and chassis. Kind of like how frequency isolators are mounted on suspension arms but with an active component that allows it to adapt to the rev range and unpleasant harmonics. Obviously as there is still a connection some vibrations would come through but hopefully they would be able to tame the higher frequencies and amplitudes.

Imagine:

Hood Automotive exterior Bumper Font Automotive tire

The frequency isolator from the middle of the arm
Toy Font Personal protective equipment Fictional character Illustration

but with the technology of an active motor mount

Gas Machine Engineering Cylinder Auto part

attached to the gold part (Ferrari 120 V6 from the F1 turbo era)
 

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Any value in adding noise cancellation technology to the cabin? Also could the cabin be partially ‘isolated’ from the chassis by using some form of cabin active damping mounts? Some weight penalty for comfort ….
If my memory is correct pretty sure the S-class and a few other cars already offer active noise cancelling. I forgot the name but in a Chinese car review the passengers can even noise cancel their own area from the music coming out of the speakers.

They have it for cars as well.
"VIBRATION CANCELING TECHNOLOGY
On a 2008 Lexus ES350, a more sophisticated setup is used to reduce NVH. On this application, “counter-vibration” is created within the active motor mount to help cancel engine vibrations. It’s sort of like noise-cancellation headphone technology, but instead of sound waves that are out of phase to reduce noise, the ACM system reduces the amplitude of engine vibrations via its active motor mount that generates its own counter vibrations....

MAGNETO RHEOLOGICAL MOUNTS
Another spin on the active mount concept was developed recently by Delphi. Well-known for their magneto rheological (MR) shock absorbers on Corvettes, Delphi has applied the same idea to their next generation of active motor mounts. Magneto rheological fluids contain small particles of iron suspended in liquid. When an electric current or magnetic field is applied to the fluid, the iron particles line up and effectively increase the viscosity of the fluid. In a shock absorber, this has the effect of increasing resistance and stiffening the dampening action of the shock for a firmer ride. The same approach also works in a motor mount. The first such application for the new MR mounts was the 2010 Porsche 911 GT3 supercar (doubt you’ll see many of those in your shop!).

The stiffness of the MR motor mounts can be adjusted in real time to match the dampening requirements of the engine as speed and load change. The system requires a microprocessor and data inputs that are already available to the powertrain control module. It also uses a fluid pressure sensor within the active mounts to provide feedback so the controller can compensate for changes as they occur."
 

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is it too much to assume that you never owned one or even drove in one ?
Has Chris Harris owned every car he's driven? And yes I'm aware of owners experiences of their cars and some of what the development team stated.

And everything I wrote was factual unless you can prove me wrong. I'd welcome it.

Leave it below with your ownership and driving experiences. I Love a good read particularly unbiased ones.
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 · (Edited)
If my memory is correct pretty sure the S-class and a few other cars already offer active noise cancelling. I forgot the name but in a Chinese car review the passengers can even noise cancel their own area from the music coming out of the speakers.
………………...
Yes but the point @Bridster was making is that the Valkyrie and AMG One use the motor and transmission as fully stressed members of the chassis/monocoque, just like formula race cars ie the motor transmission is a component part of the monocoque. This may be ok for track usage where the driver and passenger have crash helmets on and fully expect a noisy vibrating environment - and want the feeling of being in a full on race car. But for a hypercar that might get some usage on normal road driving, some reduction from the full on race car experience maybe more desirable.
So leaving aside the engine design choice a way to reduce the vibration experienced in the hyper car might be to develop a more isolated driver/passenger cabin. This could be as simple as rubber mounts and some insulation for the cabin or perhaps some active mini cabin suspension components.
With regard to noise cancellation - the technique is to detect (microphone) the vibration noise pattern and with a digital signal processor produce an inverted version of the noise pattern which is then amplified (amplifiers & speakers) to cancel/reduce the noise from the vibration. For a hypercar used on track and roads the vibration noise canceling speakers could be included into the seats headrests. It would still be a noisy environment but perhaps bearable without crash helmets and earplugs …
 

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Has Chris Harris owned every car he's driven? And yes I'm aware of owners experiences of their cars and some of what the development team stated.

And everything I wrote was factual unless you can prove me wrong. I'd welcome it.

Leave it below with your ownership and driving experiences. I Love a good read particularly unbiased ones.
So you haven’t even driven one…

so you have no idea that its a terrible car.. ok..

and Harris as far as i am aware has the opportunity to drive pretty much anything so whilst he might not be completely aware of the nuance of long ownership, and has a reasonable data set to work off normally… not just blindly casting opinion with no knowledge… but okay.. such is internet
 

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Yes but the point @Bridster was making is that the Valkyrie and AMG One use the motor and transmission as fully stressed members of the chassis/monocoque, just like formula race cars ie the motor transmission is a component part of the monocoque. This may be ok for track usage where the driver and passenger have crash helmets on and fully expect a noisy vibrating environment - and want the feeling of being in a full on race car. But for a hypercar that might get some usage on normal road driving, some reduction from the full on race car experience maybe more desirable.
So leaving aside the engine design choice a way to reduce the vibration experienced in the hyper car might be to develop a more isolated driver/passenger cabin. This could be as simple as rubber mounts and some insulation for the cabin or perhaps some active mini cabin suspension components.
With regard to noise cancellation - the technique is to detect (microphone) the vibration noise pattern and with a digital signal processor produce an inverted version of the noise pattern which is then amplified (amplifiers & speakers) to cancel/reduce the noise from the vibration. For a hypercar used on track and roads the vibration noise canceling speakers could be included into the seats headrests. It would still be a noisy environment but perhaps bearable without crash helmets and earplugs …
I think we’re maybe digging into this a little bit too much…

whatever they decide to make, the car is unlikely to be driven great distances across continents.. apart from very rare examples that’s not what the halo ferrari ever does or is built to do… with their return to Le Mans, i am certain they will make the most out of that marketing gift… so the car will certainly have a similar drive train in my view… and i think that whilst they will do something to reduce cabin NVH, the USP will be the Le Mans race car, so there will be some tolerance of that for journeys which are bound to be less than 100miles… and various partners are unlikely to voluntarily travel in it more than once.. !
 

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Why are noise cancelling headphones necessary with a car that doesn't actually run??
so you don't hear the owner cursing while you sit beside ... only will hear peep peep peeeeeeeeeep all the time :ROFLMAO:
 
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