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You can't separate it from the car. The design of the engine is integral to the goals of the car overall. This is exactly my point that it's a false comparison, the GM engine designers were given an engine goal, the Cosworth designers were building an engine to the design parameters of the complete vehicle. Are you saying you think Cosworth couldn't have designed a V12 with the same displacement as the C8Z but with more power? The T50 is really not much different from designing an F1 car, there's a reason Mercedes as been so dominant for so long, because they manufacture both the engine and the chassis.
Disagree. I can totally separate it from the car and have. A variation of this engine will also be used on the T30. Just like I can seperate the McLaren V8 from the car and judge it for what it is. In fact, Mclaren's engine won engine of the year a few years back. So not only can I, it's done by professionals. Ricardo congratulates McLaren Automotive on International Engine of the Year Award

I don't know what Cosworth could or couldn't do. That's moving the goalposts. I know what they did. I judge them by their actions and product. And the product is meh relative to the C8Z engine.
 

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2012 MP4-12C
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The LT6 (aka C8 Z06 engine) produces 670hp (@8400rpm) and 460ftlb of torque (@6300rpm), with a 8600rpm red line.
The T50 engine produces 652hp (@11500rpm) and 345ftlb (@9000rpm), with a 12100rpm red line.

If you adjust the gearing for the red line, then the comparative torque from the T50 engine would be 485ftlb, i.e. more than the LT5, from an engine with 27% less displacement.
True, but with more complexity, and less reliability, more heat. And overall power still better from the more simple C8Z.

My point is this. It shouldn't even be close at these prices. For example, the T50 weight is a INSANITY! It's 1000lbs+ lighter than a corvette! The downforce it produces is insane for a car without wings all over and decimates competitors. But the engine, meh. It's comparable to a corvette. At this level, the Cosworth should not be 'comparable' in performance to the C8Z.

Anyway, at this point, I think you get my point, and I'm beating a dead horse.
 

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I guess we could go round and round on this, but I don't think your mind is going to be changed. Not sure why but I guess I'll take one last stab...

The Cosworth wasn't designed to go 200,000 miles, as I'm pretty sure Gordan Murray knows 99% of T.50 owners won't drive it 'that' much...so 50,000-60,000 miles will likely be the lifetime of ownership for a car as RAW as the T.50. Due to the price point, daily driver nature, and warranty, the Z06 has to last much much longer, which means they had to be much more conservative with performance. I don't think you are giving enough credence to DISPLACEMENT.

For all intents and purposes they are the same HP, in fact the Lauda Version will be over 700hp, I think I heard 725hp, yet one engine is MUCH smaller. Heck the 8 year old 458 Speciale is 600hp in a 4.5L @9k RPM...The Z06 is the same basic design with higher displacement, hence the higher HP figure. So they basically copied the 458 engine.

It takes stones to release a 14:1 compression ratio, 12 cylinder, 12k RPM engine to the PUBLIC (albeit limited public). To my knowledge, it's the fastest AND highest revving road car engine EVER. Hopefully people have 100 octane where they live.

You do realize that Cosworth also makes the 1000hp Valkyrie engine as well. 6.5L @ 11,100 RPM. Does that impress you more because of the power? It's also 2.5 liters LARGER. So clearly they are capable of building a 1000hp engine...my guess is Gordan Murray thought it would be too much for a 1900-2100lb car. Which is 300lbs+ lighter than the Valkyrie. These engines are truly BESPOKE.

Cheers!

Thanks for this. It would be impressive if the valkyrie engine was 1000hp NA, but isnt that WITH the hybrid part and with turbos? If so, not like for like, from an engineering stand point, IMO. And if it's 1000hp for a naturally aspired engine alone, that is amazing. Yes I find it very impressive. That they managed to squeeze out 350HP more with only 2.5liters more of displacement seems pretty cool to me. YMMV.

And the V12 in T50 was noted as not being put in to be light (it is light for a v12) but I'm not sure it's any lighter than the C8Z.

Further, that it's life span is only 60-80k miles furthers my point that its a compromised design. That's not a "feature" that's a bug IMO.

And I take your point that you dont need 1000hp for the T50. It's so light that really the HP is sufficient. I'm not criticizing the car. I LOVE THE CAR. It's a piece of automotive art IMO. It's a triumph of design. I hope it drives as well as I think it will. 650hp for a car it's weight will be insane fun for the lucky owners.

My only point is people are not lauding the C8Z engine for the little miracle it is, and lauding the T50 because it has a decorative 12100RPM readline that self destructs the car in less than half the time, while being likely as heavy, and not offering more power output. The engine is highly unimpressive, except for the high RPMs, which again, have the advantage of self destructing the engine in less than half the time, while providing decorative bagpipe aural display.

Here is another way of putting it. I bet Cosworth could have put out a naturally aspirated V8 or V12, that didnt wind itself to 12000rpm, with the same HP and saved another 50lbs in engine weight. But you wouldn't get the 'bench mark trump card' well it's a v12 and revs to 12100RPM, despite likely performing as well if not better, because it would last longer, provide the same or more power, and be lighter as well.

This engine seems to me an exercise in vanity decorations. Which is fine. People accept this in wrist watches. No one buys a $200,000 watch because it tells time so well; they usually suck at telling time. They get it because it's mechanical art, and one of the few 'acceptable' pieces of jewelry men are culturally allowed to wear. It's not about performance, it's about adornment.
 

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V12 balance vs V8 😃

This is a constant meme on both ends of the argument, and at it's heart is 'adornment' and not performance. You have many people LOVING the 'unique' v8 rumble and feel saying other configurations are too smooth. Yada yada. To me the engine is about putting power out, and doing it reliably and consistently without fuss. To be sure and to be fair, others will prize other aspects, which is all, fair enough.
 

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This is a constant meme on both ends of the argument, and at it's heart is 'adornment' and not performance. You have many people LOVING the 'unique' v8 rumble and feel saying other configurations are too smooth. Yada yada. To me the engine is about putting power out, and doing it reliably and consistently without fuss. To be sure and to be fair, others will prize other aspects, which is all, fair enough.
Yes. There is no doubt that the C8 Z06 motor is the pinnacle for V8 NA FP motors. As Tadge said it represents the sum of all GM experience in motor building. A great achievement for GM.
 

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My last comment on the topic because it’s just not worth going on. The engine is 37% SMALLER and in the Lauda produces 725hp!!!

The LT6 is the same as the 458 specials engine but 1 liter larger. It’s been done before.

You’re focused too much on HP and nothing else, hence why you’re impressed with the 1000hp 6.5 liter Cosworth (more with the hybrid) and not with 725hp out of a 4liter. I bet if you did the math they are fairly equal. 4L 700hpand 6.5L 1000hp. 14:1 compression = wow and 12k rpm is insane. Don’t brush it off...it’s a very big deal.
 

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My last comment on the topic because it’s just not worth going on. The engine is 37% SMALLER and in the Lauda produces 725hp!!!

The LT6 is the same as the 458 specials engine but 1 liter larger. It’s been done before.

You’re focused too much on HP and nothing else, hence why you’re impressed with the 1000hp 6.5 liter Cosworth (more with the hybrid) and not with 725hp out of a 4liter. I bet if you did the math they are fairly equal. 4L 700hpand 6.5L 1000hp. 14:1 compression = wow and 12k rpm is insane. Don’t brush it off...it’s a very big deal.
Indeed.

The 458 Speciale made 605 PS from a 4.5L NA V8. That's ~135 PS / liter. That was in 2013.

The 5.5L NA V8 in the upcoming Corvette Z06 engine makes 670 hp, or 679 PS. That's ~124 PS / liter.

The 3.99L NA V12 in the roadgoing T.50 makes 663 PS (700 PS with ram induction). That's ~166 PS / liter (~176 PS / liter with ram induction).

The power output of the T.50s Niki Lauda isn't finalized yet, but with ram induction, it may make ~185 PS / liter or more.

Even if we fixate on just power alone, comparing road car to road car, the T.50's engine, without ram induction, is ~34% more power dense than the Corvette's. With ram induction, it's ~42% more power dense.

That's not wonderful enough? What are we missing?
 

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2012 MP4-12C
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My last comment on the topic because it’s just not worth going on. The engine is 37% SMALLER and in the Lauda produces 725hp!!!

The LT6 is the same as the 458 specials engine but 1 liter larger. It’s been done before.

You’re focused too much on HP and nothing else, hence why you’re impressed with the 1000hp 6.5 liter Cosworth (more with the hybrid) and not with 725hp out of a 4liter. I bet if you did the math they are fairly equal. 4L 700hpand 6.5L 1000hp. 14:1 compression = wow and 12k rpm is insane. Don’t brush it off...it’s a very big deal.
I have to say the Lauda impresses me more with 725hp but, thats not what's in the T50. All the compression and 12k is sound and fury not resulting in more power, so for me, it's a fancy watch, not so much useful for it's intended purpose, and in fact, less reliable for its intended purpose. But I get that others will appreciate those adornments. Fair enough.
 

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Indeed.

The 458 Speciale made 605 PS from a 4.5L NA V8. That's ~135 PS / liter. That was in 2013.

The 5.5L NA V8 in the upcoming Corvette Z06 engine makes 670 hp, or 679 PS. That's ~124 PS / liter.

The 3.99L NA V12 in the roadgoing T.50 makes 663 PS (700 PS with ram induction). That's ~166 PS / liter (~176 PS / liter with ram induction).

The power output of the T.50s Niki Lauda isn't finalized yet, but with ram induction, it may make ~185 PS / liter or more.

Even if we fixate on just power alone, comparing road car to road car, the T.50's engine, without ram induction, is ~34% more power dense than the Corvette's. With ram induction, it's ~42% more power dense.

That's not wonderful enough? What are we missing?
That's if you measure per liter, but measure for overall weight of the engine. I agree, the 458 Speciale engine is quite the marvel. I don't know how it compares on weight to the corvette engine. That's a really great point and question.
 

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That's if you measure per liter, but measure for overall weight of the engine. I agree, the 458 Speciale engine is quite the marvel. I don't know how it compares on weight to the corvette engine. That's a really great point and question.
Um, OK. Maybe measure for the body weight of the engine designer?

Well, the total engine weights (current working numbers) of the V12s in the T.50 and the T.50s are 178 kg and 162 kg, respectively. In both these cars, the engine is semi-structrual.

You should research the weights of the other engines.

I vaguely remember a Cherolet engineer saying that the LT6 is "only 1 kg more" than an LT2 engine. I also vaguely remember that the total weight of an LT2 is ~475 lb (~215 kg). If my recollections are correct, we have 725 PS / 162 kg (T.50s), 700 PS / 178 kg (T.50), and 679 PS / 216 kg (Corvette), or ~4.475, ~4.069, and ~3.143, respectively. With this (rather arbitrary) metric, the "density" of the T.50 road car's engine output is ~30% better than the Corvette's. That's almost the same difference as with the "power per liter" metric.

Unfortunately, I do not know the body weights of various engine designers.
 

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Um, OK. Maybe measure for the body weight of the engine designer?

Well, the total engine weights (current working numbers) of the V12s in the T.50 and the T.50s are 178 kg and 162 kg, respectively. In both these cars, the engine is semi-structrual.

You should research the weights of the other engines.

I vaguely remember a Cherolet engineer saying that the LT6 is "only 1 kg more" than an LT2 engine. I also vaguely remember that the total weight of an LT2 is ~475 lb (~215 kg). If my recollections are correct, we have 725 PS / 162 kg (T.50s), 700 PS / 178 kg (T.50), and 679 PS / 216 kg (Corvette), or ~4.475, ~4.069, and ~3.143, respectively. With this (rather arbitrary) metric, the "density" of the T.50 road car's engine output is ~30% better than the Corvette's. That's almost the same difference as with the "power per liter" metric.

Unfortunately, I do not know the body weights of various engine designers.
Thanks for the facetious opener, then admission via dive in actual weights, because yea, weight/density all matter. It's why it's the measure wrt to electric vehicles. Power density matters a lot. Which is totally impressive on both per liter and and overall weight/size/density re the T50 engine.

I was under the apparently completely wrong impression that the C8z engine was about the same 'size' as the T50 engine (in rough weight/bulk). If basically the T50 V12 engine is 30% lighter/less bulky than the C8z v8, that's super cool and super impressive!

Thanks.
 

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Um, OK. Maybe measure for the body weight of the engine designer?

Well, the total engine weights (current working numbers) of the V12s in the T.50 and the T.50s are 178 kg and 162 kg, respectively. In both these cars, the engine is semi-structrual.

You should research the weights of the other engines.

I vaguely remember a Cherolet engineer saying that the LT6 is "only 1 kg more" than an LT2 engine. I also vaguely remember that the total weight of an LT2 is ~475 lb (~215 kg). If my recollections are correct, we have 725 PS / 162 kg (T.50s), 700 PS / 178 kg (T.50), and 679 PS / 216 kg (Corvette), or ~4.475, ~4.069, and ~3.143, respectively. With this (rather arbitrary) metric, the "density" of the T.50 road car's engine output is ~30% better than the Corvette's. That's almost the same difference as with the "power per liter" metric.

Unfortunately, I do not know the body weights of various engine designers.
Although I'm noticing youre using the output of the T50s. The T50S is about 30% more, the 'regular' T50 engine is about 23%, which, still is very impressive.
 

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Although I'm noticing youre using the output of the T50s. The T50S is about 30% more, the 'regular' T50 engine is about 23%, which, still is very impressive.
I just wanted to make sure that you calculate for yourself :)

But yes, for the T.50 road car, 700 PS / 178 kg = 3.932 PS / kg. For the Corvette, it's 679 PS / 216 kg = 3.143 PS / kg. Therefore:

(3.932 - 3.143) / 3.143 =~ 25%

The same calculation for the T.50s gives 725[*] PS / 162 kg = 4.475 PS / kg. Therefore:

(4.475 - 3.143) / 3.143 =~ 42%

[*] The final power output of the T.50s engine could be materially higher than this.

Do you concur on the math?

(Much more appealing than Lamborghini's spiel about the supercapacitor in the similarly priced Sián and the new "Countach", where the extra 35 PS costs 35 kg in weight.)
 

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I just wanted to make sure that you calculate for yourself :)

But yes, for the T.50 road car, 700 PS / 178 kg = 3.932 PS / kg. For the Corvette, it's 679 PS / 216 kg = 3.143 PS / kg. Therefore:

(3.932 - 3.143) / 3.143 =~ 25%

The same calculation for the T.50s gives 725[*] PS / 162 kg = 4.475 PS / kg. Therefore:

(4.475 - 3.143) / 3.143 =~ 42%

[*] The final power output of the T.50s engine could be materially higher than this.

Do you concur on the math?

(Much more appealing than Lamborghini's spiel about the supercapacitor in the similarly priced Sián and the new "Countach", where the extra 35 PS costs 35 kg in weight.)
I was just doing the simple (3.932/3.143)-1 ~25% and ((4.475/3.143)-1) ~42% (unfortunately I was guesstimating in my head, lazily, rather than putting it into the calculator so my numbers came out wrong). :D

So yes, I concur. And the difference is super. Again, I was working on the apparently wrong impression that the C8Z and t50 engines were about the same size. And apparently, the T50 engine is TINY! So it is a super impressive dense power pack.
 

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I was just doing the simple (3.932/3.143)-1 ~25% and ((4.475/3.143)-1) ~42% (unfortunately I was guesstimating in my head, lazily, rather than putting it into the calculator so my numbers came out wrong). :D

So yes, I concur. And the difference is super. Again, I was working on the apparently wrong impression that the C8Z and t50 engines were about the same size. And apparently, the T50 engine is TINY! So it is a super impressive dense power pack.
Holy crap! No wonder you're now a zombie physicist! How many brain cells died in the course of this thread???
 

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Holy crap! No wonder you're now a zombie physicist! How many brain cells died in the course of this thread???
Your deep analysis of "this sucks and is stupid, stop talking on a discussion forum' was a huge value add in contrast. :rolleyes:.

Dude, no one is making you read any of it or my posts. Feel free to hit ignore if it bothers you so much.
 

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The discussion and comparison of engines, the very heart of any car & in the hearts of true car enthusiasm, is the very essence of this hobby.

I tell my wife every day - I get up every morning in a pretty good mood, and then...people.
 

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Not to mention, because the V12 is semi structural, it saves probably another 10+ kg off the chassis. And we haven't even talked about CG, of which Gordon pushed Cosworth on for crank height. Or throttle response, which is really underrated in this recent discussion. If I recall the calculations, this car can light up the tires all the way through third gear.

The intake system of the C8Z engine is super complex and large in size. That engine barely fits in the Z06. It wouldn't come close to fitting in the T.50. not to mention I think GM made the decision to have camshaft mounted finger followers which are debatable on if that will truly be no adjustment for lifetime of the engine, along with the belt and pulleys vs Cosworth gear driven

Ironically in this discussion. The old LT4 makes more torque and slightly less power than the LT6. and the same argument regarding gearing applies here too between the Vette engines
 
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