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The weight and many other things are absolutely bonkers on the t50.

Please tell me how I’m being disrespectful to cosworth? They used 12 cylinders (more complexity, more points of failure) running at 12000 rpm (creating way more heat and frictional wear and tear) and came out with an engine whose power output is less than a less complex c8z motor, that will likely be more reliable while putting out more power?

Why is that disrespectful? I honestly dont get why. Why are they all the sudden a sacred cow beyond reproach, analysis or questioning?
As I stated above...I’m a big corvette fan and will add a C8Z to the stable...however...there is a big difference between 8600rpm and 12,000rpm. The C8 engine is also 5.5L vs. 4L yet it’s only about 15hp more. So an engine with a displacement that is 37% larger only gains 2% more power? Imagine if the Cosworth were 5.5L at 12k rpm...just saying.

While I don’t know the weight of the LT6, I’d be fairly certain it weighs more than the Cosworth.

Lighter weight, Virtually the same power from a much smaller displacement, much faster revving and 12k rpm. All of these things cost money...Again...no disrespect to the LT6...it sounds wonderful...but a Cosworth v12 it is not. That last 10% is expensive. Cheers!
 

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As I stated above...I’m a big corvette fan and will add a C8Z to the stable...however...there is a big difference between 8600rpm and 12,000rpm. The C8 engine is also 5.5L vs. 4L yet it’s only about 15hp more. So an engine with a displacement that is 37% larger only gains 2% more power? Imagine if the Cosworth were 5.5L at 12k rpm...just saying.

While I don’t know the weight of the LT6, I’d be fairly certain it weighs more than the Cosworth.

Lighter weight, Virtually the same power from a much smaller displacement, much faster revving and 12k rpm. All of these things cost money...Again...no disrespect to the LT6...it sounds wonderful...but a Cosworth v12 it is not. That last 10% is expensive. Cheers!
Yes, but at the price of so much more wear and tear and maintenance for that higher RPM. How much less life span does the Cosworth have as a result of that. And I'm just saying. And it does manage to get more power output, with less wear and tear, easier maintenance. To me that's a win.

Sure, you may value spinning the RPMs more, but that's a fair discussion. And certainly not something where it's insulting.

It's a fair point on weight. I dont know. I wouldn't be surprised if they were actually pretty close in weight.

And if youre ultimate justification is sound, well we can agree to disagree. That's all sizzle no steak. Where's the beef. The sound is supposed to be a hallmark of performance, not the performance itself.

That said, fair minded folks can appreciate different aspects of the performance each brings. But to me, I think the C8Z engine is a more impressive product in what they were able to achieve in power output. Now if the Cosworth put out around 1000hp, I would change my mind and view it as the more stunning achievement.

Anyway, not to in anyway denigrate the Cosworth. It seems like it will be a truly epic engine, and likely super well balanced for the T50. But the T50s other specs are so over the top insane, like its insane low weight, that the engine seems, relatively, meh (spec wise) relative to the rest of the car. Sure it has 12000rpm red line, which is crazy high, but it's a lot of sound and fury, ultimately putting out 'dime a supercar dozen' 650hp.

Which is also not to denigrate the T50 in anyway. It's the first car in a very long time that just inspires me. I am sooooo happy for the folks getting one. It's a true marvel; one of those rare 'Sistine chapel' products of humanity.
 

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This is a pointless argument. The GM engine is undoubtedly an impressive piece of engineering, but comparing it on cost, maintenance and specification to the Cosworth is to completely miss the point of the T50, which is a car designed with as few compromises as possible to the driving experience.
Yes, few compromises, like having less HP. :rolleyes: So far the only real answer as to why "the blessed engine is beyond discussion" has been, it might weigh less (which is far from certain) and I like the pretty noises. All of which speaks to a lot of compromises to me. If the engine was tuned to just make more RPMs for the purpose of being a glorified set of bagpipes, I'd say Cosworth missed the point.
 

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Yes, few compromises, like having less HP. :rolleyes: So far the only real answer as to why "the blessed engine is beyond discussion" has been, it might weigh less (which is far from certain) and I like the pretty noises. All of which speaks to a lot of compromises to me. If the engine was tuned to just make more RPMs for the purpose of being a glorified set of bagpipes, I'd say Cosworth missed the point.
It has less power because of the weight choice, and that is offset by the rpm and the gear ratios. Why does power matter when it's faster than an F1?
 

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It has less power because of the weight choice, and that is offset by the rpm and the gear ratios. Why does power matter when it's faster than an F1?
You just moved the goal posts to the car.

Im pointing out the engine is meh relative to the C8z engine; that to me the c8z is a more impressive accomplishment. The Cosworth is also an impressive accomplishment in that it can spin up to 12100rpm, but all that sound and fury dont accomplish as much in generating power as does the c8z. And yet that sound and fury comes at a high cost, and more wear and tear and likely less reliability.

If all you care about is V12 sound, well, that certainly is a 'metric' of sorts, but one that I find not to be very substantive, and is rather, more decorative (aurally that is). YMMV.
 

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You just moved the goal posts to the car.

Im pointing out the engine is meh relative to the C8z engine; that to me the c8z is a more impressive accomplishment. The Cosworth is also an impressive accomplishment in that it can spin up to 12100rpm, but all that sound and fury dont accomplish as much in generating power as does the c8z. And yet that sound and fury comes at a high cost, and more wear and tear and likely less reliability.

If all you care about is V12 sound, well, that certainly is a 'metric' of sorts, but one that I find not to be very substantive, and is rather, more decorative (aurally that is). YMMV.
You can't separate it from the car. The design of the engine is integral to the goals of the car overall. This is exactly my point that it's a false comparison, the GM engine designers were given an engine goal, the Cosworth designers were building an engine to the design parameters of the complete vehicle. Are you saying you think Cosworth couldn't have designed a V12 with the same displacement as the C8Z but with more power? The T50 is really not much different from designing an F1 car, there's a reason Mercedes as been so dominant for so long, because they manufacture both the engine and the chassis.
 

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You just moved the goal posts to the car.

Im pointing out the engine is meh relative to the C8z engine; that to me the c8z is a more impressive accomplishment. The Cosworth is also an impressive accomplishment in that it can spin up to 12100rpm, but all that sound and fury dont accomplish as much in generating power as does the c8z. And yet that sound and fury comes at a high cost, and more wear and tear and likely less reliability.

If all you care about is V12 sound, well, that certainly is a 'metric' of sorts, but one that I find not to be very substantive, and is rather, more decorative (aurally that is). YMMV.
The engine was designed to be light, compactly packaged (e.g. the starter / alternator), and have excellent throttle response. At this price point, it needs to be very good, and tick a lot of boxes for the potential purchasers, including sound. This engine delivers on its design goals. I doubt that a Z06 engine would even fit.

At this level, you spend 10 times as much to get an incremental improvement.

Having said that, I do take your point. However, the Z06 engine development budget was probably "somewhat" higher, and targetting a different market - Europeans tend to prefer higher revs over larger capacity.
 

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655hp and an astonishingly anemic 344lbs of torque.
Forget the C8, I'm talking about the Z06's new 670hp, 440lb torque naturally aspirated engine.
I am comparing the new Z06 engine to the t50's engine, and frankly, I find the new z06 engine more impressive.
The LT6 (aka C8 Z06 engine) produces 670hp (@8400rpm) and 460ftlb of torque (@6300rpm), with a 8600rpm red line.
The T50 engine produces 652hp (@11500rpm) and 345ftlb (@9000rpm), with a 12100rpm red line.

If you adjust the gearing for the red line, then the comparative torque from the T50 engine would be 485ftlb, i.e. more than the LT5, from an engine with 27% less displacement.
 

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I'm a little bit with Zombie on this one. When they introduced the new ZO6 and subsequent videos of the engineering behind the LT6 dropped I watched 'em all - and the first engines that came to mind was the T.50's and the Valkyrie's. No one, and I mean no one is dismissing the T.50 and it's engine or choice of engine. But it does make one wonder, if we were to blindly compare the two, how close in materials used and engineering details would they truly be?

Quick question: Doesn't the T.50's V12 have a 40hp electric motor for assist, and if so, is that part of the final output numbers?
 

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@Zeus think the electric motor is for fan aero

edit :- you are correct
“The 15.75-inch (400-millimeter) rear-mounted fan is among the T.50's most fascinating features. The piece spins at up to 7,000 rpm and runs on a 48-volt electric motor. It works with the active rear spoilers and diffusers to increase downforce by 50 percent in normal driving or by 100 percent in its Braking mode. The system also functions as ram-air induction for the engine to increase the powerplant's output by around 49 hp (37 kW).”
 

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Yes, but at the price of so much more wear and tear and maintenance for that higher RPM. How much less life span does the Cosworth have as a result of that. And I'm just saying. And it does manage to get more power output, with less wear and tear, easier maintenance. To me that's a win.

Sure, you may value spinning the RPMs more, but that's a fair discussion. And certainly not something where it's insulting.

It's a fair point on weight. I dont know. I wouldn't be surprised if they were actually pretty close in weight.

And if youre ultimate justification is sound, well we can agree to disagree. That's all sizzle no steak. Where's the beef. The sound is supposed to be a hallmark of performance, not the performance itself.

That said, fair minded folks can appreciate different aspects of the performance each brings. But to me, I think the C8Z engine is a more impressive product in what they were able to achieve in power output. Now if the Cosworth put out around 1000hp, I would change my mind and view it as the more stunning achievement.

Anyway, not to in anyway denigrate the Cosworth. It seems like it will be a truly epic engine, and likely super well balanced for the T50. But the T50s other specs are so over the top insane, like its insane low weight, that the engine seems, relatively, meh (spec wise) relative to the rest of the car. Sure it has 12000rpm red line, which is crazy high, but it's a lot of sound and fury, ultimately putting out 'dime a supercar dozen' 650hp.

Which is also not to denigrate the T50 in anyway. It's the first car in a very long time that just inspires me. I am sooooo happy for the folks getting one. It's a true marvel; one of those rare 'Sistine chapel' products of humanity.
I guess we could go round and round on this, but I don't think your mind is going to be changed. Not sure why but I guess I'll take one last stab...

The Cosworth wasn't designed to go 200,000 miles, as I'm pretty sure Gordan Murray knows 99% of T.50 owners won't drive it 'that' much...so 50,000-60,000 miles will likely be the lifetime of ownership for a car as RAW as the T.50. Due to the price point, daily driver nature, and warranty, the Z06 has to last much much longer, which means they had to be much more conservative with performance. I don't think you are giving enough credence to DISPLACEMENT.

For all intents and purposes they are the same HP, in fact the Lauda Version will be over 700hp, I think I heard 725hp, yet one engine is MUCH smaller. Heck the 8 year old 458 Speciale is 600hp in a 4.5L @9k RPM...The Z06 is the same basic design with higher displacement, hence the higher HP figure. So they basically copied the 458 engine.

It takes stones to release a 14:1 compression ratio, 12 cylinder, 12k RPM engine to the PUBLIC (albeit limited public). To my knowledge, it's the fastest AND highest revving road car engine EVER. Hopefully people have 100 octane where they live.

You do realize that Cosworth also makes the 1000hp Valkyrie engine as well. 6.5L @ 11,100 RPM. Does that impress you more because of the power? It's also 2.5 liters LARGER. So clearly they are capable of building a 1000hp engine...my guess is Gordan Murray thought it would be too much for a 1900-2100lb car. Which is 300lbs+ lighter than the Valkyrie. These engines are truly BESPOKE.

Cheers!

 

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@aorta Think Valkyrie is turbo motor?
This article suggests it doesn't have turbos. Only hybrid component.

"The all-new engine is a bespoke naturally aspirated 6.5-litre V12 from Cosworth. ‘The engine had to be bespoke,’ F1 engine ace Adrian Newey said. ‘We spent a lot of time looking at the obvious alternatives to a normally aspirated V12 or a turbo V6 or V8. We came to the conclusion that. from a technical standpoint. a V12 was the best solution because although the engine itself is heavier it is actually a much easier package to install."

 

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This article suggests it doesn't have turbos. Only hybrid component.

"The all-new engine is a bespoke naturally aspirated 6.5-litre V12 from Cosworth. ‘The engine had to be bespoke,’ F1 engine ace Adrian Newey said. ‘We spent a lot of time looking at the obvious alternatives to a normally aspirated V12 or a turbo V6 or V8. We came to the conclusion that. from a technical standpoint. a V12 was the best solution because although the engine itself is heavier it is actually a much easier package to install."

Yes I am batting zero today :cry:
 
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