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Full Evo test out now

25K views 180 replies 27 participants last post by  Calitalia 
#1 ·
I got my Evo though the post this morning. Full 32 pages of comparative tests...

12C gets good review, but....1 second slower around Bedford than the 458....

Out of the 5 reviewers not one placed the 12C top....
 
#2 · (Edited)
Truly, it starts to give the feeling that McLaren pays a bit their marketing arrogance.
Like it would be disturbing for a journalist to write "yes they were right it is the best car", it become a bit trendy to make the buzz to tell the Ferrari is still well there.

Personally i don't care, as i never got into the Ferrari thing, never got and will never get one, but well i really think all these test starts to stink a bit some complete lack of objectivity.
 
#4 ·
Relax, guys. We already know the 458 making the rounds is a ringer. An independent test with CUSTOMER cars is the only reliable data. If McLaren says they engineered the 12C to be faster than a customer 458, to which they clearly had access, then I have no doubt it is faster in real life.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Well, no, that does not work. Italia was 1.4 secs faster than the Scud and 1.6 secs faster than GT3 RS mk2. If McLaren is slower than Italia by a sec it means that it was faster than the Scud/GT3 by less than .5 sec. Even if the scud was also a ringer, GT3 definitely was not. It is very bad. Evo times do tend to be somewhat idiosyncratic, since it's journalists who drive them, but if the stig fails to beat Italia (and RS2) convincingly at Rockingham (in CAR test), then It's a total failure for McLaren.

I am sorry I said it was bad. It's not bad, it's pathetic if it can shade GT3 by only .5 sec.
 
#6 ·
What is confusing is that McLaren purchased a 458 within weeks of launch and, I understand , kept it for many months; and may still own it.

During this time the two key test drivers spent many hours driving it in all conditions, the tech heads stripped out the software of all components for analysis ( I asked one employee why the 458 gearbox fails to change down when in automatic mode and he said because when they stripped out the box control software it was binary blah blah blah and thus kept the car ib high gears in certain situations), the engineers stripped down the assembly for complete knowledge. They know all that needs to be known about the dynamics, performance and how it is achieved.

So they made claims based on facts derived from a customer type purchase!

What has changed and why the surprise? Different car and different people is the simple answer. I wonder if any publication has the back bone and commercial disassociation to get to the 'real facts'?

The 458 may be better for some drivers but not all and if Ferrari have supplied a 'ringer' then a customer car comparison will surely sell mags if they have the balls.

In the motorcycle industry most tell Porky's about weight as if one misrepresents they all 'have to' in the superbike and touring categories.

Time and a test drive is needed before a balanced view is developed me thinks!!!!
 
#9 ·
I don't mean to be rude ?? But am i the only person on this forum who does'nt give a F$$K what magazines write about a car ??? I have had a lot of awesome cars over the years and i can honestly say i have never been influenced by a mag in one of my buying decisions !!! Come on boys get real !!!!
 
#11 ·
Amorak. I'm with you, I drive the cars and make my own decisions but I read what they, the journo's, have to say to get a perspective, irrelevant or otherwise. Motorcycle companies research claim 90% of 'new interest' results from test reports hence the cheating that goes on - have you noticed the 458 in the current tests has Italian plates?
 
#14 ·
If a car is slower on track and rocks my boat, is more engaging, keener to the eye then Job DONE. But the GT3 is a fabulous drive and engaging, just now bored with 911 after 20 years of enjoyment, but it is a bargain!

Roll on the MP12 test drive>>>>
 
#24 ·
Summary of EVO test.

Full test, 5 drivers, 5 days, 6 cars, 1000 miles and a track. (quite a mixture of cars)
MP4 12C
458 Italia
Merc SLS
911 Turbo S
Ford GT
Noble M600

To cut 35 page report to the final decision. Overall - Best car 458. Also scoring 5 out of 5 - SLS, GT, Noble, 4 out of 5 911 and MP4.

Standing start:
0-30 1st 911, 2nd MP4, 3rd 458
0-60 1st MP4, 2nd 911, 3rd 458
0-100 1st MP4, 2nd joint 911 and 458

Track Times - Now here is the shock!!! - Bedford Autodrome.
1st 458 - 1.19.3
2nd MP4 - 120.6

MP4 support team then fitted corsa tyres - still second - 1.19.6

McLaren sent full complement of engineers for the track test - more than Ferrari did according to the article.

MP4 weight as tested with Carbon brakes (IRIS not functional) - 1433 kg
458 weight as tested - 1469kg

General comment, no tester chose MP4 as favourite, MP4 great to drive at 5/10th's with perfect ride and muted sound and also great at 10/10 th's with all it's technology, but most importantly not rewarding between these ranges where most of the time these cars will be driven for spirited road driving. Brakes slated (carbon), seems similar to Merc SLR, all or nothing with no feel. Seems that at normal fast road speeds the car doesn't manage to respond to the road surface - 'suddenly feels all at sea, with only moderate loadings to deal with, the strange Citroen like ride reactions are back and the chassis feels out of tune with road' - perhaps more fine tuning needed.

Biggest shock - 458 is faster on track!!!!!!!!!! :eek:
 
#25 · (Edited)
Something simply CAN'T be right here.

12C's 0-200kph time is about 1.5 sec faster than the 458

12C is lighter, has more power and a higher top speed

12C has a far more sophisticated suspension

458 beats 12C on the race track.

If McLaren were a company which is clueless about suspension setup etc this MIGHT be possible.

However we all know that is NOT the case.

What are the chances that the 458 was set up in such a way that the setup would be unusable for road use?

If it was true then McLaren would have spent an enormous amount of effort in saving weight and creating high tech stuff and have nothing to show for it performance wise (on a race track). THAT sounds like a tremendous waste and hence not like Ron.

Something does NOT compute here.
 
#26 ·
The 458 track car was the same car that had been used for the previous 4 days by 5 drivers, was voted best on regular roads as well. EVO had all the cars for the full test period I assume to stop tampering. The only car that changed tyres for the track was the MP4 when the McLaren engineers asked to change to Corsas in an effort to beat the 458.
 
#28 ·
Another thing that is strange is that usually Harris and the rest of the Evo gang's Twitter feeds are alight with banter about the recent issue, it's road test results, etc. Nothing today. At the very least, you would think someone would admit surprise by the Italia's newfound speed or the fact that one of the 12C's most outstanding features (remember Harris saying 5-series, E-class ride) has now gone to shite. It's as if they've been served a gag order.....

Let's face it, having Ferrari tell you they won't supply you with access to their cars is utter suicide for a car mag. Same extortion tactics Ferrari uses with Formula One every time they threaten to leave and start their own series. It's BS but that's the way it is. I wonder if Harris is bound to keep his mouth shut now just to keep his job with Evo.
 
#29 ·
The Italia in the test is clearly a ringer. Thevweight of 1469 kg is a dead giveaway. However, the big problem with the lap time is that it is even slower than the original Italia ap time. Even that lap time looked suspiciously fast compared to the scud, but ultimately the best handling car in the world pulling 1 sec on the scud or GT3 is simply not good enough. This is the car, which is supposed to pull 20-30 sec on it's competition at the ring? I am sorry something does not compute.
 
#31 ·
Okay, I still haven't read the article, but I'm looking at my copy of EVO 158 - the one with the GT2 RS and Cayenne Turbo that has the Bedford lap time list.

So, at 1:19.6 the 12C is three tenths faster than the GT2 RS and the Ferrari has improved a whole second to 1:19.3, leap-frogging the GT2 RS and the Apollo S. What is so hard to believe about that, considering this version of the Italia is definitely modified?

Of course we have to consider that some of these lap times were set on different days.

1:19.6 is seriously quick and discounting the Ferrari as a cheat still makes the McLaren faster than the GT2 RS and the fastest volume production streetcar on the board, no?

Truth of the matter is that the original Italia was definitely a ringer, too. This one is just more of a ringer.

Any time faster than the GT2 RS is effing blazing fast.
 
#35 ·
I would suggest the biggest worry for the MP4 after the test is not the lap time but the tester feedback about road driving. Without exception they didn't like it. Sedate driving - superb! Lunatic mode - superb. Between the two, all at sea, floaty and indirect! Surely that is a concern and at least needs some recalibration of the suspension before delivery to owners.

I think it is a given the the 458 was a "goodun" with some special tweaking, having said that the car did the 5 day test and wasn't compromised at all on the road, so definitely not a pure track version. They used the same Tyres the whole time and the car wasn't changed for the track times. So one can only assume that tweaking was only HP as other wise I'm sure road manners would have been affected.
 
#38 ·
The ride quality issue is a concern as most of the time most people will be at mid speed or lower on the road - remember this is an 'and' car that is everyday usable and track-able.

The rest of criticisms are changeable, flappy paddles haptic is engineer-able and throttle response can be improved with some induction work but will always be turbo throttle until electric spoolers fitted for low rev work.

Still believe a test ride is one way to answer most questions.

Wonder how many will be tempted to wait for Mk 2 with direct injection and better turbo technology - say 2013 model year ?

Come on Antony Sherrif and Ron, let's hear your answers to these concerns or the jitters will gather momentum!!!!!!
 
#53 ·
more from Harris:

It's the level of control that's so profoundly irritating and I think damaging to the brand. Once you know that it takes a full support crew and two 458s to supply those amazing stats, it then takes the shine off the car. The simple message from Ferrari is that unless you play exactly by the laws they lay down, you're off the list.

What are those laws? Apart from the laughable track test stuff, as a journalist you are expressly forbidden from driving any current Ferrari road car without permission from the factory. So if I want to drive my mate's 458 tomorrow, I have to ask the factory. Will it allow me to drive the car? No: because it is of "unknown provenance," i.e. not tuned. I'm almost tempted to buy a 458, just for the joy of phoning Maranello every morning and asking if its OK if I take my kid to school.
 
#55 ·
more from Harris:

as a journalist you are expressly forbidden from driving any current Ferrari road car without permission from the factory.
I read that piece by Harris a while ago but that bit above in particular is just beyond ridiculous. Who the hell do they think they are to have the arrogance to believe they can/should tell someone they can't drive any car they like??
 
#60 ·
The EVO article notes that the tyres on the 458 were brand new at the start of the test.

Whilst I want the 12C to be the better car (as my £15K deposit has been benefiting Woking since last July), it doesn't come across that way.

Whilst I entirely agree and believe Monkey's issues over Ferrari straight jackets, the 458 was the same car throughout the 5 day test, not one brought out for the test and McLaren had even more tech guys at the track than Ferrari.

I must admit that I am starting to reconsider my purchase.
 
#64 ·
I apologize, but I must be missing your point? So what if it was the same 458 for the entire test? That does not change the fact that the car was a ringer. It could easily have had stickier tires (and the rest of its mods) on for the whole 5 days. Whether the testers could tell the difference is completely MOOT; as per Harris they are FORBIDDEN by Ferrari to question it in their published reviews. That's what Harris's whole rant is about!

To each their own, but there is NO way I'm reconsidering my spot in line for a 12C based on the evidence thus far. I would have to see two customer cars square off without any factory involvement to even consider that the 458 can keep up. All of these press reviews are tainted because Ferrari cheats. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand? Forgive my tone- I'm not trying to be condescending, just don't know how else to explain in prose. :)
 
#66 ·
Remember this other 5 STAR review by an Evo chap, a scant 3 months ago: http://community.evo.co.uk/users/Ro...3/2/ROGER-GREEN-The-new-McLaren-isnt-soulless

In many of the reviews of the MP4-12C the major criticism levelled at it has been that there’s a shortfall in emotional connection. Fair comment? I don’t think so. Certainly not compared with the 458, which relies more on history and association with truly epic Ferraris like the Enzo or any of the GTOs rather than creating its own aura. Yes, the Ferrari has more visual allure, but soul? A 360 Stradale has a bucket-load more than a 458. Make no mistake, the current entry-level Ferrari will prickle the nape of any petrolhead and its capabilities are unquestionably extraordinary. But it's the McLaren that really got under my skin – and it’s even more able.
As you can read in the new issue of evo, on sale today, it took all of six laps of a wet and bumpy Llandow track to understand how obsessively engineered this car is. These conditions presented just about the toughest test you could subject a supercar to, and yet in the Mac you instantly felt secure. It keys into the tarmac, dismissing bumps and standing water, and it builds confidence so fast you can really lean on it within a lap. it is shockingly fast too. I knew it would be quick – Monkey told me in no uncertain terms as I climbed aboard, and, like everyone else, I’d already seen the acceleration figures – but that knowledge still doesn’t prepare you for the full effect.
But the most astonishing aspect isn’t the power, it’s what the MP4-12C does with it. Over the soaking wet, cold Welsh moorland roads the ride was almost spooky. I opted for ‘Sport’ in those conditions to tighten the roll rate, but it still had an exceptional level of suppleness, connectedness and feel. It’s a true drivers’ car. You feel instantly at one with it, and yet you also know that each and every drive would uncover more facets. It’s not a car to show off in. It’s a car to drive, and in the real world conditions there’s nothing faster or more accomplished. Seventeen years ago McLaren re-wrote the supercar rule book. I reckon they’ve just done it again.


So the 12C has just "rewritten the supercar rule book", yet it now gives up its 5 star rating to the Merc SLS, which I am certain Green had a chance to drive before writing this piece? Something is up in the EVO office and it stinks bad. Real bad, like rotting prosciutto. I'm not buying it.
 
#67 · (Edited)
One last quote from Harris for the night. C'mon guys, he's pleading with you to open your eyes:

None of this will make any difference to Ferrari. I'm just an irrelevant Limey who doesn't really matter. But I've had enough of concealing what goes on, to the point that I no longer want to be a Ferrari owner, a de-facto member of its bullsh!t-control-edifice. I sold my 575 before Christmas. As pathetic protests go, you have to agree it's high quality.

Jesus, this is now sounding like a properly depressing rant. I'll leave it there. Just remember all this stuff then next time you read a magazine group test with a prancing stallion in it.


Now after that, if you are still insisting the 458 wasn't tuned and that the EVO lads wouldn't turn a blind eye to it, then please PM me, as I have an investment for you that is guaranteed to make money! :)
 
#73 ·
We have to wait until Ben Collins drives the Mclaren (Former Stig). Trusting journalist these days is as almost as trusting defence ministers or goverments in dubious nations. According to McLaren themselfs then yes the 12C is faster than an Veryon Supersport. And yes it would be a failure if a Ferrari is quicker than an McLaren.

Lukie
 
#74 · (Edited)
dont hold your breath,its still the same 458 press car,if the 12c beats the gt2rs i will be pleased,as i have now learned to discount any 458 result.
Which will be the best magazines to look out for ,who only do customer car tests as reading anything else would be a pointless waste of my blood pressure
ps,its just nice knowing whom im talking to MTC,HMS,TAG,lukie plz
 
#78 ·
Hope you all realise the Nationality of the McLaren Cars MD, Mr Antony Sheriff, and that he learnt his trade at Fiat!
 
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