McLaren Life banner
141 - 160 of 166 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,316 Posts
You do know that the v8 architecture on the SF90 is basically from 488 and up platform right? Its proven to be relatively reliable. The 296 is a modified shorten chassis (102 inch wheelbase) and its v-6TT is an all new engine, zero track record under real world conditions by consumers. Why should I be the guinea pig just because its touted to be the latest and greatest from Ferrari? The problem I have with Ferrari on their line up now is that they basically used an evolution of its V8TT engine, sandwiched an electric motor bumped up the hp and hiked up the price drastically to become the SF90... To me its really essentially an overly priced, highly boosted 488 electrified... There is zero carbon chassis, just an overweight 488 with loads of power.... Just look up the wheelbase of the 488, Tributo, and SF90 and you will see they are all on the same chassis of 104.3 inches... To me that is just Ferrari doing smart marketing vs coming up with some true innovations in their line up. Hell, even Lamborghini has for the longest time had a carbon tub at that price point comparable to an SF90, plus a wonderful sounding V-12... Just because the SF90 and 296 has more hp does not equate to me uniqueness. Nowadays people can boost up 4 cylinder engines to have 1000 hp but that doesn't mean anything...
I thought you meant the hybrid stuff concerned you. I have little doubt the V6 itself will be as reliable as a Honda. What about this engine is so revolutionary and different from their previous designs and tech that it seems risky? I'd imagine it's just a V6 that incorporates all the stuff they've learned from developing the V8. Is anyone really developing new, wild, groundbreaking ICE tech these days? I'd imagine there is no more risk to owning this engine than a new Honda engine. It's "all new", but it's still heavily based on all their previous developments with a different material here, a different position there. Nothing that would drop your jaw.

I agree that the SF90 is massively overpriced and all their cars reuse stuff and say it's "a gazillion different parts", but that's how you make money in this business. McLaren very well could be out of business in 5 years even though they seem to be pretty innovative. Lamborghini is probably barely profitable and only with the general tech amortization across VAG.

It sucks I guess, but there really is very little money to be made in this business. Ferrari proves that people just don't care about CF tubs and bespoke engines. People are happy with what they get, so no need to fix what's not broken.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
429 Posts
I thought you meant the hybrid stuff concerned you. I have little doubt the V6 itself will be as reliable as a Honda. What about this engine is so revolutionary and different from their previous designs and tech that it seems risky? I'd imagine it's just a V6 that incorporates all the stuff they've learned from developing the V8. Is anyone really developing new, wild, groundbreaking ICE tech these days? I'd imagine there is no more risk to owning this engine than a new Honda engine. It's "all new", but it's still heavily based on all their previous developments with a different material here, a different position there. Nothing that would drop your jaw.

I agree that the SF90 is massively overpriced and all their cars reuse stuff and say it's "a gazillion different parts", but that's how you make money in this business. McLaren very well could be out of business in 5 years even though they seem to be pretty innovative. Lamborghini is probably barely profitable and only with the general tech amortization across VAG.

It sucks I guess, but there really is very little money to be made in this business. Ferrari proves that people just don't care about CF tubs and bespoke engines. People are happy with what they get, so no need to fix what's not broken.
Sorry, I cant agree with your assumptions about their engines... I just wouldn't recommend to anyone to jump in to a new car that will undoubtedly have teething problems in the real world.

As to making money, unfortunately Ferrari is now a publicly traded company and thus it is now their mission which is vastly different from the Enzo days of making cars to fuel their racing. Resorting to horsepower bumps on old chassis and leaning on its heritage to sell to its car collector customer base in a world of rapid prototyping and increase speed of product to market only tells me that Ferrari is no longer unique nor innovative. Its not that Ferrari doesnt want CF tubs nor innovation. Its just a fact that they are behind because they kept their contracts with Alcoa to continue aluminum chassis development rather than investing into CF.

On the other hand, Lambo has been able to mix uniqueness with volume type products like the Urus to keep enough profitability. Mclaren has been steadily corroding Ferrari's market share and has been making segment leading offerings.. As to their profitability, leveraging their halo models off their volume cf chassis and engine with massive price differences surely helps so I dont think they are going to be out of business anytime soon...
 

·
2012 MP4-12C
Joined
·
8,698 Posts
Hybrids are superior to vanilla ICE in every way. They simply provide an output that is better than ICE when an ICE needs some torque.
Provably wrong. They are heavier, and as such worse. They are more complicated and more things to break down. Battery tech is crap, and out of date in relatively few years, and becomes a headache for longer term ownership.

From the pure power output standpoint, you may well be right, but that's not really a full apples to apples view IMO.
 

·
Registered
2019 McLaren 600LT Chicane Effect
Joined
·
240 Posts
Provably wrong. They are heavier, and as such worse. They are more complicated and more things to break down. Battery tech is crap, and out of date in relatively few years, and becomes a headache for longer term ownership.

From the pure power output standpoint, you may well be right, but that's not really a full apples to apples view IMO.
Beat me to it. I wonder if noone2 has ever driven an top tier hybrid around the track, or even in a spirited drive through the mountains. What it out so far is very good, but for each of those there are better ICE cars out there as well, usually in a lower price bracket…
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
718 Posts
why wouldn’t the F8 be the special car? The end of an era. The last V8 mid engine non hybrid. The last of the analog dash.
Reading your post #71 and #73 the F8 was a short term reaction to the 720S, that's why I write that it was just a transformative solution between the 488 and the 296, a mere transitional solution, that's all. In my statement I do not evaluate the F8 further. If I'm honest, I like the F8 much better than the 296 (a remark at this point, I'll give the 296 of course a chance, because the view/test in real life has changed my mind many times), but the F8 is already an "old car" that, according to Ferrari's advertising promise, clearly doesn't match the driving agility of a 296. And whether it is the last combustion engine and the last with an analog dash in its product line, I don't know, is this really of high relevance? The last manual, the last automated manual transmission, the last NA, I don't know how relevant these attributes really are. As many write here, only the power counts. And we are talking about new cars, right? The F8 I can no longer buy new? Right?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,316 Posts
Beat me to it. I wonder if noone2 has ever driven an top tier hybrid around the track, or even in a spirited drive through the mountains. What it out so far is very good, but for each of those there are better ICE cars out there as well, usually in a lower price bracket…
None of the top tier ones, no. But the weight doesn't seem to be a problem. The Artura is only 100 lbs heavier than the 570S according to McLaren. 100 pounds is meaningless in modern road cars that are already like 3300 lbs. It's like complaining that your car is much worse when your wife is in it rather than when it's just you.

For track days, buy track cars. Much cheaper to run and better anyway. For light weight fun, but an Alfa or something tiny like that. If you want a modern super car with big power, I'd say the weight difference is going to be negligible.

I'll bet $10 that the hybrid 720S replacement blows the doors off the 765LT in every way, even if it weighs more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,316 Posts
Provably wrong. They are heavier, and as such worse. They are more complicated and more things to break down. Battery tech is crap, and out of date in relatively few years, and becomes a headache for longer term ownership.

From the pure power output standpoint, you may well be right, but that's not really a full apples to apples view IMO.
If weight was all the mattered, you'd buy a 4C instead of a 12C, no?

I'm not saying they're keepers or will be great to own 10 years from now, but what standard models ever are? All exotics are outdated in a few years and longer term they really aren't keepers for most people. They are consumer goods, they get old. I'm fine with that. If an Artura isn't a great car in 10 years, does it really matter?
 

·
2012 MP4-12C
Joined
·
8,698 Posts
If weight was all the mattered, you'd buy a 4C instead of a 12C, no?

I'm not saying they're keepers or will be great to own 10 years from now, but what standard models ever are? All exotics are outdated in a few years and longer term they really aren't keepers for most people. They are consumer goods, they get old. I'm fine with that. If an Artura isn't a great car in 10 years, does it really matter?
Weight matters. If it didn't, these companies wouldn't obsess over trying to reduce it. The only real light weight cars right now as far as I can tell are the Alpha 4C, Miata, Subaru BRZ the lotus' and the T.50. I'm sure Im missing a few, but it's slim pickings. But McLaren keeps trying to get under the 3000lb area and keeps failing for any reasonably optioned car. But they keep trying.

And you are provably wrong on your opened-ended statement that "Hybrids are superior to vanilla ICE in every way" and are not even trying to tackle the other points of added complexity, worse reliability, and being outdated on battery tech in mere years so long term viability being diminished. You're just wrong. It's provably worse in all those ways.

Now perhaps if I read the spirit of what you're saying, the real bulk of customers just dont care. Sadly, I think you're right there.
212726

People want to just buy the 'pinnacle' and that these things are all fat porkers is irrelevant to the bulk of buyers (but not all). Ultimately, the way they are driven 90+% of the time (a slow motion crawl to cars and coffee with an occasional bolt to 120mph on a highway), the weight, all these other things are meaningless. They are glorified jewelry/watches for most owners.

And most exotic buyers dont hold on to these things more than 3 years, and dump them out of warranty on the rest of the market not caring. The number of customers that truly care about weight, is small. And you are correct, for those that care, they are forced to go to the few above noted options rather than these supercar fat porkers. And as such, these fat super car porkers are, really, as disposable as iPhones, just for more money. And in that, if that's your point, you have an excellent point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
718 Posts
Weight matters. If it didn't, these companies wouldn't obsess over trying to reduce it. The only real light weight cars right now as far as I can tell are the Alpha 4C, Miata, Subaru BRZ the lotus' and the T.50. I'm sure Im missing a few, but it's slim pickings. But McLaren keeps trying to get under the 3000lb area and keeps failing for any reasonably optioned car. But they keep trying.

And you are provably wrong on your opened-ended statement that "Hybrids are superior to vanilla ICE in every way" and are not even trying to tackle the other points of added complexity, worse reliability, and being outdated on battery tech in mere years so long term viability being diminished. You're just wrong. It's provably worse in all those ways.

Now perhaps if I read the spirit of what you're saying, the real bulk of customers just dont care. Sadly, I think you're right there.
View attachment 212726
People want to just buy the 'pinnacle' and that these things are all fat porkers is irrelevant to the bulk of buyers (but not all). Ultimately, the way they are driven 90+% of the time (a slow motion crawl to cars and coffee with an occasional bolt to 120mph on a highway), the weight, all these other things are meaningless. They are glorified jewelry/watches for most owners.

And most exotic buyers dont hold on to these things more than 3 years, and dump them out of warranty on the rest of the market not caring. The number of customers that truly care about weight, is small. And you are correct, for those that care, they are forced to go to the few above noted options rather than these supercar fat porkers. And as such, these fat super car porkers are, really, as disposable as iPhones, just for more money. And in that, if that's your point, you have an excellent point.
Agreed. If weight doesn't play a central role in the sports car sector, I've misunderstood something fundamental.
We must not forget that if the new laws on CO2 reduction did not exist, no one, and I mean really no one, would build a hybrid sports car.

It is a transformative technology to bridge ICE to the all-electric vehicles. In retrospect, these things are viewed with a smile on the faces as something nonsensical. Of course, these cars also have to be sold, and advertising is not shy to tell us the biggest crap.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,316 Posts
Agreed. If weight doesn't play a central role in the sports car sector, I've misunderstood something fundamental.
We must not forget that if the new laws on CO2 reduction did not exist, no one, and I mean really no one, would build a hybrid sports car.

It is a transformative technology to bridge ICE to the all-electric vehicles. In retrospect, these things are viewed with a smile on the faces as something nonsensical. Of course, these cars also have to be sold, and advertising is not shy to tell us the biggest crap.
But like I said, McLaren claims Artura is only 100 lb heavier than 570S. That's only like a 3% penalty for a huge improvement in power delivery, not to mention probably a lower center of gravity.

I believe a well designed hybrid system would offer a positive trade off for the modest weight gain.

That said, we'll never know for certain because no company will ever bother to build two version just to see which is better. Unrestricted 919h LMP1 car seems pretty fast. Not sure a non-hybrid would be faster or not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,540 Posts
Discussion Starter · #154 ·
SportsCar365
Ferrari Planning to Use 296 as Next GT3 Model


Ferrari looking to deploy 296 GTB as its next-generation GT3 car from 2023…

by Daniel Lloyd
July 22, 2021

Ferrari is planning to use the 296 GTB as the base car for its next GT3 competition model launching in 2023, according to the director of the Italian manufacturer’s Attivita Sportive GT department.

Antonello Coletta has made a strong indication that the 296 GTB – a V6 mid-engine plug-in hybrid sports car that was unveiled last month – is in line to replace the Ferrari 488 GT3 Evo 2020 after next year’s racing season.

He added that “internal studies” are ongoing to determine the final approved model.

Ferrari’s global GT3 program has focused on the V8 twin-turbo 488 GTB road car since 2016. The GT3 car was updated with Evo kits in 2018 and 2020.

The road-going 296 will be powered by a 2.9-liter, 120-degree internal combustion engine producing 663 hp, which is similar to the output of the 488’s twin-turbo V8.

The main engine is linked to a 167 hp electric motor. However, GT3 does not allow hybrid technology, so this motor would need to be removed for a 296-based racing model.

This was previously achieved by Honda when it removed the electric motor from its second-generation NSX road car in the development of a GT3-homologated version.

“The model base for the new car will probably be the 296, the new car that we presented recently,” Coletta told Sportscar365. “This is probably our new base of the car.

“I think it’s very, very early. We have more chance to choose the model because there exist more projects that are coming.

“But of course it is impossible to explain outside of the factory, because we are [doing] internal studies.”

Coletta said that Ferrari is “warming up” for the presentation of its next-generation GT3 racer, which will make its debut in less than two years’ time.

The 296 road car is set to enter production in 2022, while the competition model is slated for a 2023 debut.

The year after next is due to mark a watershed in Ferrari’s motorsport story, as the company launches new flagship racing products in both GT3 and Le Mans Hypercar.

Ferrari has previously stated its commitment to the GTE category until the end of 2022, after which it expects GT3 to play an even greater role in top-line GT racing.

“The production of the [road-going] 488 is finished,” said Coletta.

“We have 2021 and 2022 for GT3 and GTE, but after we stop. We finish at the end of 2022, probably with a Challenge for one more year. But with GT3 and GTE we stop.

“Of course it’s normal that if GTE-Am continues, we have the 488 for one year. But after, probably all the classes move to the GT3 category. We will be ready with the new car.”

Coletta stressed that the upcoming GT3 model will be developed by Ferrari. An external partner will then be appointed to help build and service the cars.

In April, ORECA was reported as being set to replace Michelotto as Ferrari’s GT racing build partner. Coletta wouldn’t name ORECA when discussing the next GT3 program, but indicated that the build partner will “probably” be new.

Long-time Ferrari associate Michelotto is confirmed as the 488 GT3 build partner up to the completion of and beyond the car’s homologation cycle.

“Our collaboration [with Michelotto] is long-term and I think that will continue for the future,” said Coletta. “Because Michelotto works for Ferrari on many activities, not just GT3. Nothing is stopped.

“I would like to be very clear: Ferrari is in charge of the Ferrari car projects. LMH, GT3… the projects are in the charge of our technicians.

“After, we assemble the car with a partner, and the partner for the new GT3 probably will be different. This is the only different [aspect]. But the project is in charge of Ferrari.

“I know that around the world exists a lot of misunderstanding. The car is created in Maranello. This is most important.”

Coletta suggested that Ferrari’s intention is for its new GT3 car to roll out shortly before its Le Mans Hypercar does the same.

Sportscar365 revealed earlier this week that the unnamed Ferrari LMH will be a four-wheel-drive hybrid-powered car built to the prototype side of the technical regulations.

“The car is getting ready for the 2023 season,” said Coletta when asked about the next-generation GT3 vehicle’s debut. “It’s another project that we studied from the factory.

“I hope that [the] first test will be before the LMH. I hope in February next year, two or three months before the LMH. We are very busy. But we hope to make a good job.”
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Provably wrong. They are heavier, and as such worse. They are more complicated and more things to break down. Battery tech is crap, and out of date in relatively few years, and becomes a headache for longer term ownership.

From the pure power output standpoint, you may well be right, but that's not really a full apples to apples view IMO.
totally agree with you, I rented a Ferrari in Dubai and it was my worst experience.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
800 Posts
@Jonathan19 The 296GTB ‘better in terms of technology’ is correct for the ICE HP and perhaps also for the electric motor HP - perhaps the electric motor in the Artura is lighter?. But the light weight stiff carbon chassis and I think the new light weight wiring electric bus system used in the Artura may be ahead of that used in the 296GTB 😇
it is so far ahead that the car still doesnt exist... ;) Mclaren has an inherent advantage in the carbon tub. Safer, lighter and stiffer than anything else out there. the rest, maybe not so much
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
800 Posts
I think Ferrari is making the same mistake McLaren did, they are launching too many models in too short a time. Now they have the F8, the 296 GTB and the SF90. The positioning in the video seems a bit adventurous. The SF90 is for people who are looking for peak in max power, the 296GTB for people who are looking for peak in max driving fun. Ha, so the SF90 is not fun? And for whom is the F8 now? For people who are looking for what exactly? Which car should now be classified and how? Ferrari says with the 296 GTB a new product line is launched, this car does not replace an existing model. Well that may be their wish, but I think the market is losing the overview and in the end this car will displace the F8.
the 296 is the replacement for the F8. end of.
and while i agree with too many models released too quickly, Ferraris brand name is a lot stronger than any other car company so they can get away with it f or longer
 
141 - 160 of 166 Posts
Top