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When I first saw the 458 in magazines, I must admit I thought (and still do) that the design was fantastic.

However, since then I've seen quite a few being driven around London and the SE, and well, on our roads at least, the thing looks a bit silly. Not the styling, but the size.

I remember the very first I one saw, a black model, driving across the bridge at Walton-upon-Thames. Lovely car, but it was so wide an unwieldy, it had the traffic behind it backed up. That, along with the fact the driver was slung so far over to one side of the car, made it look ungainly. Not cool.

Of course, the 458 isn't the only car to suffer from this. All modern Ferraris and Lamborghinis I've seen out and about just don't look right on UK roads.

Contrast that with a Porsche 991 Carrera 4S, that was parked up in a side street in the City last night.

I don't know, but it just looked compact, wieldy, chuckable, and totally at home. Here, it's purposeful and down to business, so the driver doesn't look like a knob.

Similarly, the Aston V8 Vantage also has a chunky, compact appearance and consequently doesn't look out of place either.

Are the dimensions of the Porsche and Aston really that much different to the Ferrari, or is it something to do with the more upright driving position?

I only ask as I think this is relevant for the P13, and what kind of owner McLaren are aiming for.
 

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If the P13 is based on the MonoCell, I don't see how it can be any smaller than the 12C. 12C is even a bit bigger than I though it would be, although thankfully very light. 991? Still too big and bigger than the last one. New Cayman? Bigger than the last one and just as heavy, despite Porsche's claims.

Long wheelbase, front track width, legroom, shoulder room, butt room, safety. This is what buyers want and therefore the trend. There is (clearly) no market for the Lotus sized models, although perhaps the new little Alfa will be a success. I find the BRZ / FRS a nice little thing when I see one rolling. P13 will not be a little car.
 

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P13

Which might partially explain poor 12c residuals. If Ferrari were talking about an upcoming, lower priced mid engine car leveraging 458 engine, transmission, chassis, suspension, LaFerrari styling cues, etc., where would 458 residuals be?

The California targets a different demographic and as such has not harmed 458 residuals.

McLaren, something has to be quite different on P13 from 12c to protect the brand and it's early adopters.

A 9,500 RPM N/A engine perhaps?

Manual gearbox to steal disenfranchised GT3 buyers?

Usable rear seats as a result of a larger tub?

Bill
 

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If the P13 is based on the MonoCell, I don't see how it can be any smaller than the 12C. 12C is even a bit bigger than I though it would be, although thankfully very light. 991? Still too big and bigger than the last one. New Cayman? Bigger than the last one and just as heavy, despite Porsche's claims.

Long wheelbase, front track width, legroom, shoulder room, butt room, safety. This is what buyers want and therefore the trend. There is (clearly) no market for the Lotus sized models, although perhaps the new little Alfa will be a success. I find the BRZ / FRS a nice little thing when I see one rolling. P13 will not be a little car.
Unfortunate, but you are dead on. P13 will not be Alfa size, that's too bad:(
 

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The P13 will beat the competition and won't compete with the MP4.

Mclaren has a proven record of beating the competition.

Why anyone would think it's not going to repeat that history is beyond me.
 

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Which might partially explain poor 12c residuals. If Ferrari were talking about an upcoming, lower priced mid engine car leveraging 458 engine, transmission, chassis, suspension, LaFerrari styling cues, etc., where would 458 residuals be?

The California targets a different demographic and as such has not harmed 458 residuals.

McLaren, something has to be quite different on P13 from 12c to protect the brand and it's early adopters.

A 9,500 RPM N/A engine perhaps?

Manual gearbox to steal disenfranchised GT3 buyers?

Usable rear seats as a result of a larger tub?

Bill
I disagree that the 458 has better residuals than the MP4.

Look how many are for sale vs the MP4.


458's aren't depreciation proof - talk to someone trying to sell one vs list them for sale.

If every 458 and MP4 went for auction Mclaren would do much better.

Let's face it all those 458 buyers want a Mclaren they just can't dump their Ferrari because they owe more than it's worth :)
 

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The new 911 is actually rather large.. In my opinion I think it looks huge, the fact is cars are getting larger with all the safety equipment and wiring looms, to meet these stupid regulations. Don't get me wrong, safety is important, but you're not going to walk into a field with a pack of lions are you? There are ways around the size increase though, using smarter and stronger materials, there will be a point where they're going to have to stop increasing the size of cars, they won't be able to fit on the roads and car parking spaces 'safely'

In my opinion, I don't think P13 will be compromisingly large, its based on the 12c, Its only meant to have 4 seats, the same v8 is small and low, I don't see why McLaren need to make it much larger than the 12c
 

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The new 911 is actually rather large.. In my opinion I think it looks huge, the fact is cars are getting larger with all the safety equipment and wiring looms, to meet these stupid regulations. Don't get me wrong, safety is important, but you're not going to walk into a field with a pack of lions are you? There are ways around the size increase though, using smarter and stronger materials, there will be a point where they're going to have to stop increasing the size of cars, they won't be able to fit on the roads and car parking spaces 'safely'

In my opinion, I don't think P13 will be compromisingly large, its based on the 12c, Its only meant to have 4 seats, the same v8 is small and low, I don't see why McLaren need to make it much larger than the 12c
4 seats?? Was that a typo?
 

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The new 911 is actually rather large.. In my opinion I think it looks huge, the fact is cars are getting larger with all the safety equipment and wiring looms, to meet these stupid regulations. Don't get me wrong, safety is important, but you're not going to walk into a field with a pack of lions are you? There are ways around the size increase though, using smarter and stronger materials, there will be a point where they're going to have to stop increasing the size of cars, they won't be able to fit on the roads and car parking spaces 'safely'

In my opinion, I don't think P13 will be compromisingly large, its based on the 12c, Its only meant to have 4 seats, the same v8 is small and low, I don't see why McLaren need to make it much larger than the 12c
The 991 does look big agreed, especially so when you see one side by side with a 993. The difference in size is quite startling. I'm not sure it is just safety reg issue that cars have gotten bigger though. Would reckon that is at least as much due to customers wanting more spacious cars whether saloons or sports cars and that has been an ongoing trend for many years unfortunately. Just look at the way the BMW E60 exploded in size compared to the E39 (still IMO the best proportioned 4 door car) for example...
 

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They do look bigger but I really think a lot of It is illusion . Even the 991 is less than 2 inches longer than the 997.
For example a 991 is only 19 cm longer than a 911e (!) it is wider too ( by 10 cm ) but roof is actually lower ( by 7mm ) The 991 wheelbase ( increase of 9.5 inches ) is the main reason for the optical illusion .
I believe it is marginally smaller than a 12c , Ferrari ( especially recently) definitely have been going long , low and wide .
 

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They do look bigger but I really think a lot of It is illusion . Even the 991 is less than 2 inches longer than the 997.
For example a 991 is only 19 cm longer than a 911e (!) it is wider too ( by 10 cm ) but roof is actually lower ( by 7mm ) The 991 wheelbase ( increase of 9.5 inches ) is the main reason for the optical illusion .
I believe it is marginally smaller than a 12c , Ferrari ( especially recently) definitely have been going long , low and wide .
That is fair enough, the wheelbase does give some element of optical illusion to the size of the 991. To the eye it looks a lot bigger than the 997 but not quite as much when you actually line them up together. The 991 definitely is smaller than the 12c but the 12C is a pretty big car dimensions wise (always wished it was a bit shorter and narrower...). To be fair to Ferrari, the F12 is smaller than the 599 which is the first time in a while I can remember a new car model being smaller than the previous one.
 

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safety is a big factor it compromises a lot of areas, you can even compare the doors, a pillars, the door trims, dashboard, everything is much much larger, thicker metals etc, I agree with customers wanting a more spacious interior, but I don't think that is a major factor to drive the increased size of European cars.

The comment about the Porsche optical illusion, it could also be that the wheels wells are larger in diameter, filling those up are bigger wheels to make the overall car appear bigger, but with advancing engineering there are now ways of getting around the size whilst keeping structural rigidity, apart from supercars a good exmaple would be the new Peugeot 208, based on the 207 but they've managed to reduce its overall dimensions without compromising the interior, infact the interior is even more roomier.
 

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The new 911 is actually rather large.. In my opinion I think it looks huge, the fact is cars are getting larger with all the safety equipment and wiring looms, to meet these stupid regulations. Don't get me wrong, safety is important, but you're not going to walk into a field with a pack of lions are you? There are ways around the size increase though, using smarter and stronger materials, there will be a point where they're going to have to stop increasing the size of cars, they won't be able to fit on the roads and car parking spaces 'safely'

In my opinion, I don't think P13 will be compromisingly large, its based on the 12c, Its only meant to have 4 seats, the same v8 is small and low, I don't see why McLaren need to make it much larger than the 12c
The 12C is somewhat big but low......looked larger than my turbo. P13 will be similar in size n similar interior layout because of the same tub, just like the P1. :rolleyes: I just can't stand this parts sharing stuff especially chassis cause your very limited with what a you can alter from one model to the nxt
 

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The 12C is somewhat big but low......looked larger than my turbo. P13 will be similar in size n similar interior layout because of the same tub, just like the P1. :rolleyes: I just can't stand this parts sharing stuff especially chassis cause your very limited with what a you can alter from one model to the nxt

Parts sharing saved Porsche from going under in the 9o's. Even today the 911 and boxster share platform, engine, transmission, doors, glass, interior, switches, etc etc..........wouldn't surprise me if the 4x4 tractor and massive 4 seater thingy shared the chassis pressings!
 

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Parts sharing saved Porsche from going under in the 9o's. Even today the 911 and boxster share platform, engine, transmission, doors, glass, interior, switches, etc etc..........wouldn't surprise me if the 4x4 tractor and massive 4 seater thingy shared the chassis pressings!
True but one is mid the other is rear engine. 911 owner will not get confused with a cayman owner. 911 has tiny rear seats, the boxster has two trunks. Just saying:p
 

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Unfortunate, but you are dead on. P13 will not be Alfa size, that's too bad:(
That's the tub (Alfa 4C) we will be using for our next one off road car and race car project. We'll extent the wheelbase and fit a TT Maserati V6. I've come to feel that all of these cars are too big and heavy and we're going smaller, lighter simpler.

Our goal is 2000 lbs and 500HP about the same P/W as our 1967 Ferrari 330 P 3/4 but more Dino Competizione sized.
 

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The 12C is somewhat big but low......looked larger than my turbo. P13 will be similar in size n similar interior layout because of the same tub, just like the P1. :rolleyes: I just can't stand this parts sharing stuff especially chassis cause your very limited with what a you can alter from one model to the nxt
It's actually quite a normal thing with all brands, especially within the VW group. It makes sense from a business point of view, after all, cars are products, like watches; and to be successful in today's tough economy you have to utilise everything that works well, makes no sense to waste money on developing something marginally better, from a consumers point of view I can see why it's not easy to take in, but business point of view, it's clever and your products are brilliant. Things will only get better along the way, it's a natural process, just like evolution. Plus you can't expect radical changes with the financial structure we live in, otherwise we'd have flying cars by now, and don't think that's a ridiculous statement either because its not, after all, the world revolves around money and big business need to make profit. You think high quality are of the highest? Think again "premium" companies would had been long gone.
 
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