[Torbin]

McLaren obviously has been instrumental to the development of CF in automobiles. They have really been the sole player in CF chassis (not talking body panels).

Does the fact that Lamborghini just made the leap into CF overshadow McLaren in some way since Lamborghini is already well established building road cars?

Lambo leap frogged Ferrari in this aspect going from steel to CF and skipping aluminum. Ferrari says it is committed to staying with aluminum since they have invested so heavily in it.

With VW/Audi backing at Lamborghini, I am wondering if they might hog the CF limelight, as evidenced by the Elemento Sesto concept and now the Aventador.

 

[6th element]

Interesting question. I would have to submit that, yes, it does take some of the exclusivity shine off, since the Aventador is a regular series production car and not a limited-volume special. On the other hand, it is in a higher price bracket, which fortifies McLaren's position as the only Carbon chassis car in the 12C's immediate segment.

It will be very interesting to see how the market reacts to both cars. Only then will we know if the trend will force other manufacturers to follow suit. Certainly, the Monocell is a large part of my attraction to the 12C. Perhaps others can weigh in on how important it is to them.

 

[DaddyMc]

Well, the Aventador also doesn't look nearly as good as the McLaren in my opinion, and weighs a quarter ton more. It's also AWD, which is advantageous in some situations (like traction on the street for straight line acceleration), but also means that its 100 extra HP at the crankshaft probably only amounts to 30-50 more actual (wheel) horsepower. And that's being optimistic. This is not nearly enough to make up for the nearly 17% weight difference.

Calculations:
BHP * Percentage of power transmitted after drivetrain loss = estimated WHP

McLaren: 592 * 0.85 = 503.2 whp
Aventador: 700 * 0.75 = 525 whp, but we'll say 550 to be generous and optimistic.

# of lbs per calculated wheel ("real") horsepower
McLaren power:weight ratio: 5.91
Aventador power:weight ratio: 6.31

The lower the number, the better. 6.4% difference in P/W ratio,
in the McLaren's favor. That isn't to say that the Aventador won't be a
fantastic car, but it's quite a bit more expensive, and isn't as impressive on paper. Of course, these specs don't always hold true in real life, I don't feel like there is anything that is particularly compelling about the Aventador, other than those that like its sort of... jet-fighter-inspired angular exterior. To each their own.

 

[6th element]

Well, the Aventador also doesn't look nearly as good as the McLaren in my opinion, and weighs a quarter ton more. It's also AWD, which is advantageous in some situations (like traction on the street for straight line acceleration), but also means that its 100 extra HP at the crankshaft probably only amounts to 30-50 more actual (wheel) horsepower. And that's being optimistic. This is not nearly enough to make up for the nearly 17% weight difference.

Calculations:
BHP * Percentage of power transmitted after drivetrain loss = estimated WHP

McLaren: 592 * 0.85 = 503.2 whp
Aventador: 700 * 0.75 = 525 whp, but we'll say 550 to be generous and optimistic.

# of lbs per calculated wheel ("real") horsepower
McLaren power:weight ratio: 5.91
Aventador power:weight ratio: 6.31

The lower the number, the better. 6.4% difference in P/W ratio,
in the McLaren's favor. That isn't to say that the Aventador won't be a
fantastic car, but it's quite a bit more expensive, and isn't as impressive on paper. Of course, these specs don't always hold true in real life, I don't feel like there is anything that is particularly compelling about the Aventador, other than those that like its sort of... jet-fighter-inspired angular exterior. To each their own.

That's a great analysis- thanks for crunching those numbers to illustrate.

Something else that the Aventador may appeal to, however, is the true "hypercar" notion, in that it has a top speed of 217 MPH or something? I know the 12C has been clocked at 210 plus during testing at Nardo (I believe). But, 217 starts to creep into a different realm that is only possible with huge HP. Meaningless, I know, but isn't it all!

 

[SSO]

Interesting question. I would have to submit that, yes, it does take some of the exclusivity shine off, since the Aventador is a regular series production car and not a limited-volume special. On the other hand, it is in a higher price bracket, which fortifies McLaren's position as the only Carbon chassis car in the 12C's immediate segment.

It will be very interesting to see how the market reacts to both cars. Only then will we know if the trend will force other manufacturers to follow suit. Certainly, the Monocell is a large part of my attraction to the 12C. Perhaps others can weigh in on how important it is to them.

The Alfa 4C will also have a CF tub and will be priced at about 1/3 of the MP4-12C.

 

[DaddyMc]

The Alfa 4C will also have a CF tub and will be priced at about 1/3 of the MP4-12C.

True. If you can stand the looks of that ridiculous car.

 

[SSO]

True. If you can stand the looks of that ridiculous car.

Whats not to like?

The 8C is great looking and this is just a smaller version.

 

[Osiris_x11]

I'm sure the forthcoming "down-market" McLaren offering (~$125k?) will exhibit some of the same CF prowess of the MP4-12C in terms of fabrication/construction of the monocoque/tub. I believe the big dealio of McLaren's CF mono-cell is the economies of scale to come, meaning more cost effective & efficient production of such along w/ greater quantities.

For instance, the Lexus LF-A even superseded the Lambo Aventador & McLaren MP4-12C in terms of sub half-million CF platforms. But, that doesn't take away from the marketability of either of the latter. The LF-A was a design exercise by Toyota to showcase their L-Finesse philosophy as well as serve as a halo for their models to come which will incorporate CF/composites (especially as they have their own in-house loom, comparable to what aero-space & defense constructors would otherwise have).

In-essence, McLaren brought CF monoque w/ the MP4-12C to a market-segment that didn't have it (mid-engine high-performance exotic sports-cars), just like Honda (Acura) brought a true aluminum monoque w/ the NSX to the same market segment two decades ago.

 

[SSO]

Mosler has also been making sub $500k CF platform cars for several years now.

 

[falb]

The Lamborghini is not a true mono cell. It is about 7 pieces made with differing processes then bonded together. IMO, far inferior to the 12C mono cell.

 

[Ritesh]

The Lamborghini is not a true mono cell. It is about 7 pieces made with differing processes then bonded together. IMO, far inferior to the 12C mono cell.

True but it is the whole cell, not just the Tub.

IMHO to the original question - my answer would be YES!

 

[6th element]

True but it is the whole cell, not just the Tub.

IMHO to the original question - my answer would be YES!

That's a very good point. In a rollover scenario, however unfortunate, the Aventador's cell may provide better protection. Still uncertain about what is within the 12C's structure for roll protection, as the body work is simply draped over the Monocell.

 

[Ritesh]

Actually in a Rollover situation my major concern would be which car's scissor doors actually open up!! A problem you wouldn't have in LP560 or an F458!

 

[6th element]

Actually in a Rollover situation my major concern would be which car's scissor doors actually open up!! A problem you wouldn't have in LP560 or an F458!

I believe this was discussed somewhere, but I can't remember the source. Perhaps even as far back as the McLaren F1 development notes. The dihedral doors are still supposed to be able to open, with the car on its roof. Part of the reason they open away first, and then up, I think. Therefore, no need for explosives to blow the doors off, as in Merc SLS.

 

[falb]

Just shoot out the windshield.

 

[zippycar]

Therefore, no need for explosives to blow the doors off, as in Merc SLS.

Hope Michael Caine isn't in charge of that recovery!

 

[Osiris_x11]

With VW/Audi backing at Lamborghini, I am wondering if they might hog the CF limelight, as evidenced by the Elemento Sesto concept and now the Aventador.

A Lambo Sesto Elemento at Lamborghini Newport Beach. What's the basis/underpinnings, a modified Gallardo platform? (namely Murcielago-Reventon, Gallardo-Sesto_Elemento) The power-train is the 5.2 V10 from the Gallardo.

 

[widowmaker911]

A Lambo Sesto Elemento at Lamborghini Newport Beach. What's the basis/underpinnings, a modified Gallardo platform? (namely Murcielago-Reventon, Gallardo-Sesto_Elemento) The power-train is the 5.2 V10 from the Gallardo.

SIK est performance figures......outguns VEYRON

 

[HyperMac954]

A Lambo Sesto Elemento at Lamborghini Newport Beach. What's the basis/underpinnings, a modified Gallardo platform? (namely Murcielago-Reventon, Gallardo-Sesto_Elemento) The power-train is the 5.2 V10 from the Gallardo.

That's not Lambo NB. That's at the Pasadera Country Club next to Laguna Seca, and the event was a simple Lambo test drive event for prospective customers (I took a Super Trofeo out).

Semantics aside, it's a beautiful car, truly amazing applications of CF, but at $2.2M... and not street legal... it's just an exercise in spending money. And the seats were remarkably comfy (they didn't lock the doors, and no one said I couldn't sit in it, until I did).

 

[Ramy]

A Lambo Sesto Elemento at Lamborghini Newport Beach. What's the basis/underpinnings, a modified Gallardo platform? (namely Murcielago-Reventon, Gallardo-Sesto_Elemento) The power-train is the 5.2 V10 from the Gallardo.

Seems like Lamborghini's research agreement with Boeing and University of Washington is paying off with an "Advanced Composite Structures Labratory".

The Sesto Elemento is a track only demonstrator limited to 20 units.

The engine and transmission are Gallardo based; a race 570hp version and Corsa only 6 speed respectively. Unsure about other internals. The rest are bespoke to the project.

There are two interesting and currently atypical versions of carbon fiber. The interior shell and parts are carbon composite, a low cost and time version which takes 8 minutes to create. The body is a thin weave, at 0.8 millimeters compare to carbon fiber's 1.2 mm and aluminum's 2.4 mm.

At a impressive 999 dry kilograms, the entire production runs weighs as much as a large-cab 18 wheeler with a trailer.

Would not be surprised if VW via Lamborghini was supplementing auto-sales income with CF tech investments.

Jay Leno interviewing Stephan Winkelman, CEO of Lamborghini, on the Urus and Sesto Elemento at Pebble Beach. Sesto features at the 7:30 mark onwards.