[A West]

Porsche has been leading all of them for decades. And it is not about retaining resale value. Sure the occasional hypercar retains its value - 918, 959, Carrera GT - but the vast majority of them depreciate like crazy and those of us who can wait get a great car for a fair price.

I personally am extremely happy that my 570 is depreciating like crazy. I bought mine just one year old and it had already depreciated $60k! I almost certainly wouldn't have bought one if it was at the $225k list price.

And now I'm depreciating it as fast as I can by putting lots of miles and smiles on it! If there's any value left when I'm done with it, the next guy who might've only been able to afford a Porsche can have some more fun with it.

And, hopefully, I can buy a new, year old, Mac for $60k off of list again.

not sure how sustainable of a strategy that is for Mclaren longer term. just like socialists dont get, eventually you run out of other people money. i.e. people stop buying the cars if there is excessive depreciation. Just look at sales of Ferrari V12 historically, the F12 and 812 are outliers, they used to suffer much great depreciaton than the V8s and volume reflected that.
I paid GBP45k below list for our latest brand new 720 spider... will still lose a ton on it, but that is ok as it is a great car

 

[sailfly]

The 765LT continues a dynasty of the best drivers cars ever made, and cars that are superlative on track. The 765LT is the final product of the P14/15 team or the "dream team" assembled by Ron Dennis before the 12C. Everyone of their products has decimated the competition. McLaren's challenge now is to build and improve on this legacy and maintain product superiority as the majority of this team no longer works for McLaren.

Interesting I hadn't heard of this. Was this due to some management shakeup or just moving on to better opportunities?

 

[Champagne612]

You can't "lose" on a car unless you somehow consider it an investment and never drive it.

But my point was that Porsche has something like 10 times Ferrari's revenue and 5 times earnings (I could be off a little). So Porsche leads Ferrari by a lot. And my point was that it wasn't by making cars that the poor buyers thought would be great investments, but by making lots of great cars that depreciate like every other car, including the vast majority of Ferrari's. Cars are not investments. Stocks and Bonds are.

ok.

 

[EMF Audio (McMedics)]

With a US listing and everything that comes with that, Ferraris opportunity to lose track of no of cars made or round down weight etc etc, is very diminished...

That's precisely how people figured out more were made than claimed.

not sure how sustainable of a strategy that is for Mclaren longer term. just like socialists dont get, eventually you run out of other people money. i.e. people stop buying the cars if there is excessive depreciation. Just look at sales of Ferrari V12 historically, the F12 and 812 are outliers, they used to suffer much great depreciaton than the V8s and volume reflected that.
I paid GBP45k below list for our latest brand new 720 spider... will still lose a ton on it, but that is ok as it is a great car

Rolls Royce values drop to 30% of new the day they come off warranty. They don't care about depreciation, once a car is sold they made their money. McLaren is the same way.

 

[Champagne612]

That's precisely how people figured out more were made than claimed.

Rolls Royce values drop to 30% of new the day they come off warranty. They don't care about depreciation, once a car is sold they made their money. McLaren is the same way.

Owned a Cullinan and lost 5% after two years and could have made 5% if I took the time to sell on my own vs trade in. Few weeks ago bought a Dawn Black Badge and can sell it for 50k or more over msrp. To address the 30% off warranty - a lot of that has to do with corporate leases that get turned in and those companies actually made their 30% by the Gov't deduction on a car that slid under the farm equipment SUV weight category. My guess is most made above the 30% vs lost it and enjoyed their vehicle.

Rolls does care - they offer trips Monterey and many other ways to make you feel part of their family - cars for some is a lifestyle that owners buy into and when pulling up to their 20m jet or 100m yacht is - just something they do.

Mclaren also cares - I got whacked by a cowboy salesman and Mclaren mgmt. stepped up and secured me an LT Carbon edition to remedy.

You and others are certainly entitled based off your experience - totally fine but others including myself have a completely different experience.

As far as Ferrari and their past - there were games but once public and got caught all issues were addressed and there is zero tolerance for games of allocation etc.
Ferrari in Vegas - canned as were many others. VIN numbers are heavily watched - when a car arrives at Port it's run thru the ringer and then some - Porsche got caught the worst and paid not only fines but jail time.

I'm simply saying - buying cars is an investment in time and money and how one wishes to treat that investment has a lot to do with the result / sale.

Going back to a lot of wasted time on the Ferrari debacle of more than stated - my 16M was actually lower as Ferrari shuttered in 2009 due to owners and dealers cancelling orders. The 599 Aperta and a few others seemed to be a problem but after many hours days weeks years it was less than 20 or so and that wasn't even proven. Keep in mind Enzo hated customers and it was all about the passion to race finish and place. For fun watch Carroll Shelby in action when he told customers to go f themselves and nearly went broke doing so as did Enzo Lamborghini many times and Aston I think 8 times has declared bankruptcy.

The old guys didn't care about anything but winning and they didn't go home at 3:30pm it was more like 3:30 am - todays bean counters and stockholders and Gov't are far from the engineering racing mentality of extracting everything they had to perform. Mass production ROI these words never entered the early exotic factories but now that they have it's a rare gem that reflects the past and there aren't imo many more to come as most of the great ones have already been produced.

Anyway - expect what saved Porsche to arrive soon ... one more Mac (suv) on the dance floor.

 

[shack]

Having purchased from all 4 brands (M, L, F and Pcars) it really does seem to be dealer dependant in terms of the c$%p you have to put up with IMO.

 

[EMF Audio (McMedics)]

Owned a Cullinan and lost 5% after two years and could have made 5% if I took the time to sell on my own vs trade in. Few weeks ago bought a Dawn Black Badge and can sell it for 50k or more over msrp. To address the 30% off warranty - a lot of that has to do with corporate leases that get turned in and those companies actually made their 30% by the Gov't deduction on a car that slid under the farm equipment SUV weight category. My guess is most made above the 30% vs lost it and enjoyed their vehicle.

Rolls does care - they offer trips Monterey and many other ways to make you feel part of their family - cars for some is a lifestyle that owners buy into and when pulling up to their 20m jet or 100m yacht is - just something they do.

Mclaren also cares - I got whacked by a cowboy salesman and Mclaren mgmt. stepped up and secured me an LT Carbon edition to remedy.

You and others are certainly entitled based off your experience - totally fine but others including myself have a completely different experience.

As far as Ferrari and their past - there were games but once public and got caught all issues were addressed and there is zero tolerance for games of allocation etc.
Ferrari in Vegas - canned as were many others. VIN numbers are heavily watched - when a car arrives at Port it's run thru the ringer and then some - Porsche got caught the worst and paid not only fines but jail time.

I'm simply saying - buying cars is an investment in time and money and how one wishes to treat that investment has a lot to do with the result / sale.

Going back to a lot of wasted time on the Ferrari debacle of more than stated - my 16M was actually lower as Ferrari shuttered in 2009 due to owners and dealers cancelling orders. The 599 Aperta and a few others seemed to be a problem but after many hours days weeks years it was less than 20 or so and that wasn't even proven. Keep in mind Enzo hated customers and it was all about the passion to race finish and place. For fun watch Carroll Shelby in action when he told customers to go f themselves and nearly went broke doing so as did Enzo Lamborghini many times and Aston I think 8 times has declared bankruptcy.

The old guys didn't care about anything but winning and they didn't go home at 3:30pm it was more like 3:30 am - todays bean counters and stockholders and Gov't are far from the engineering racing mentality of extracting everything they had to perform. Mass production ROI these words never entered the early exotic factories but now that they have it's a rare gem that reflects the past and there aren't imo many more to come as most of the great ones have already been produced.

Anyway - expect what saved Porsche to arrive soon ... one more Mac (suv) on the dance floor.

You've kind of proven my point. RR sees you bought new and offers an experience to keep you buying another new RR. If I bought a 10 year old Ghost they don't care who I am, what I paid, or how much anyone lost. The thing with used car values in the last 2 years is an anomaly. I bought my 12C nearly 3.5 years and 26k miles ago and I can probably sell it for what I paid for it. I'm pretty positive nobody at McLaren corporate cares about me because I'm not on a list to buy the next new big thing, and that's fine.

 

[Champagne612]

You've kind of proven my point. RR sees you bought new and offers an experience to keep you buying another new RR. If I bought a 10 year old Ghost they don't care who I am, what I paid, or how much anyone lost. The thing with used car values in the last 2 years is an anomaly. I bought my 12C nearly 3.5 years and 26k miles ago and I can probably sell it for what I paid for it. I'm pretty positive nobody at McLaren corporate cares about me because I'm not on a list to buy the next new big thing, and that's fine.

Maybe I shouldn't post here or with you as we don't know one another but if you truly believe Mclaren doesn't care about their customers old or new - I disagree. They built a car to last a long time - there was a time when Mclaren gave all their MP4 customers an upgrade of hp for free to their existing customers. Buying the next thing is what we all do - until we don't.

I go to events where people stopped buying decades ago and racers stopped racing decades ago and both are treated if not better certainly equal to those buying / racing today. I can't tell you what to think but it's just not true from my experience.

By the way - when purchased my 2nd RR as I walked into a dealer for the first time who did not know me or anything about me wearing work out clothes. Never spoke to anyone but the salesman.

I have been on forums a long time and met a lot of people from forums - we are all more alike than different. This thing of you vs me is ridiculous. I don't care how much or what someone else has or does not have. Here to share experiences and ownership and more so to listen and learn

 

[invisiblewave]

I think it depends what kind of buyer you are. They obviously care about the secondary market, because that's what determines the depreciation on the new cars they sell, so high demand for used cars is obviously going to make new cars easier to sell. They also care about their dealer network, for similar reasons, so a used car buyer who buys from a dealer, maybe buys a warranty, and uses the dealer for servicing is evidently important to them, although maybe not as important as someone who has to have the next new shiny thing and can afford $100k in depreciation over the first few years. I suspect I'm about to find out just how much they care, since my main rear engine seal is leaking, and it also needs new suspension bushings all round. The tech thinks the warranty will cover the bushings, but I'll be somewhat surprised if it does (although the extended warranty on my Phaeton did fork out for upper control arms at about 80k miles).

 

[invisiblewave]

You've kind of proven my point. RR sees you bought new and offers an experience to keep you buying another new RR. If I bought a 10 year old Ghost they don't care who I am, what I paid, or how much anyone lost. The thing with used car values in the last 2 years is an anomaly. I bought my 12C nearly 3.5 years and 26k miles ago and I can probably sell it for what I paid for it. I'm pretty positive nobody at McLaren corporate cares about me because I'm not on a list to buy the next new big thing, and that's fine.

And on a related technical question, while the transmission is off the car, assuming it does have the DLD with springs, should I fork out for an upgrade to the revised fluid-filled DLD? It also requires a complicated software update I'm told.

 

[EMF Audio (McMedics)]

I think it depends what kind of buyer you are. They obviously care about the secondary market, because that's what determines the depreciation on the new cars they sell, so high demand for used cars is obviously going to make new cars easier to sell. They also care about their dealer network, for similar reasons, so a used car buyer who buys from a dealer, maybe buys a warranty, and uses the dealer for servicing is evidently important to them, although maybe not as important as someone who has to have the next new shiny thing and can afford $100k in depreciation over the first few years. I suspect I'm about to find out just how much they care, since my main rear engine seal is leaking, and it also needs new suspension bushings all round. The tech thinks the warranty will cover the bushings, but I'll be somewhat surprised if it does (although the extended warranty on my Phaeton did fork out for upper control arms at about 80k miles).

If they cared about second hand they wouldn't rake one of their largest markets over the coals on parts. US market pays double what Europe does. That effects the ownership experience and can make somebody not come back to the brand or exit it all together. Usually when they do a "deal" on an out of warranty or not covered by warranty repair to make the customer happy, they act like they're losing money splitting the cost but they're really just not making all the money, and the customer gets the warm and fuzzies. They care about the big fish buying a new car every 6-12 months, not about the used buyer that might upgrade in 3-5 years.

The experiences expressed vary on the type of buyer, and I'm guessing big fish don't know how the little fish are treated.

And on a related technical question, while the transmission is off the car, assuming it does have the DLD with springs, should I fork out for an upgrade to the revised fluid-filled DLD? It also requires a complicated software update I'm told.

The actual part price variance isn't much, like 10% dealer cost. When I end up replacing mine, I'll do it with the new one. As far as complicated software update, that's verbiage to justify you spending the money. No software update I would consider to be complicated. Maybe time consuming on their slow ass computers, but not complicated.

 

[invisiblewave]

If they cared about second hand they wouldn't rake one of their largest markets over the coals on parts. US market pays double what Europe does. That effects the ownership experience and can make somebody not come back to the brand or exit it all together. Usually when they do a "deal" on an out of warranty or not covered by warranty repair to make the customer happy, they act like they're losing money splitting the cost but they're really just not making all the money, and the customer gets the warm and fuzzies. They care about the big fish buying a new car every 6-12 months, not about the used buyer that might upgrade in 3-5 years.

The experiences expressed vary on the type of buyer, and I'm guessing big fish don't know how the little fish are treated.

The actual part price variance isn't much, like 10% dealer cost. When I end up replacing mine, I'll do it with the new one. As far as complicated software update, that's verbiage to justify you spending the money. No software update I would consider to be complicated. Maybe time consuming on their slow ass computers, but not complicated.

He said there were multiple controllers involved, and they have to figure out the current software levels, but that's pretty much the same for any software update. I'm currently doing something similar at work, but what I'm doing is way more complicated than 3 or 4 controller levels, and I'm doing it on an undocumented, poorly maintained system......

What's the cost of a DLD? I asked them to quote for doing it while the transmission's off (assuming the warranty claim is approved, otherwise it's going to Dalton.... lol).

 

[EMF Audio (McMedics)]

He said there were multiple controllers involved, and they have to figure out the current software levels, but that's pretty much the same for any software update. I'm currently doing something similar at work, but what I'm doing is way more complicated than 3 or 4 controller levels, and I'm doing it on an undocumented, poorly maintained system......

What's the cost of a DLD? I asked them to quote for doing it while the transmission's off (assuming the warranty claim is approved, otherwise it's going to Dalton.... lol).

Yes you just have to update all modules, which isn't hard to do, just time consuming. DLD cost will vary by seller. Different dealers charge different amounts and are wildly different, and McMedics charges differently as well.

 

[ksp]

If they cared about second hand they wouldn't rake one of their largest markets over the coals on parts. US market pays double what Europe does.

Interesting to hear as the US is probably close to or the cheapest country to buy a car new. This starts to explain the relative difficulties in scoring limited edition cars. We commonly see posts on this forum from US members having trouble getting an allocation. In Australia where the cars even allowing for exchange rates and taxes are much more expensive than US we have a dealer that has sold 4 or 5 spiders into a population of under 2M with some confirmed as recently as about 6 weeks ago.

Makes me think manufacturers preference markets with higher profit margins for their limited production cars.

Can't really comment on spare part prices here but our servicing costs appear to be relatively low compared to forum posts from US members here and on Porsche forums. We get reamed on entry, you guys during ownership. Looking at the amounts I'd rather be you.🤔

 

[EMF Audio (McMedics)]

Interesting to hear as the US is probably close to or the cheapest country to buy a car new. This starts to explain the relative difficulties in scoring limited edition cars. We commonly see posts on this forum from US members having trouble getting an allocation. In Australia where the cars even allowing for exchange rates and taxes are much more expensive than US we have a dealer that has sold 4 or 5 spiders into a population of under 2M with some confirmed as recently as about 6 weeks ago.

Makes me think manufacturers preference markets with higher profit margins for their limited production cars.

Can't really comment on spare part prices here but our servicing costs appear to be relatively low compared to forum posts from US members here and on Porsche forums.

They may allocate by region, not population. Easier to get the same number of cars with fewer buyers available. I would agree US service cost is higher here but that may be due to parts, not as much labor. I'm sure labor is higher than some regions simply because of cost of living. It's different even within the US for that reason, and greed.

 

[ksp]

Interesting. We are in APAC so economic concerns in Asia and China may have freed up more cars for Australia.

In general however profit margins in APAC would be higher than NA.

 

[invisiblewave]

Interesting. We are in APAC so economic concerns in Asia and China may have freed up more cars for Australia.

In general however profit margins in APAC would be higher than NA.

You're also rhd which probably factors in. I'm curious how that works on a production line.

 

[ksp]

Doubt its an issue on the production line but moreso in dealing with suppliers.

 

[ducatir8cer]

Looks like Chris had a change of heart on the 765LT

 

[invisiblewave]

Looks like Chris had a change of heart on the 765LT

Does anyone have a link to the video where he bad mouthed it in the first place? The only Top Gear review I can find that was critical of it wasn't Harris.