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All good fun - personally have not test driven or driven any car since I was 16 prior to purchasing.
The reviews carry a lot of weight - limited editions are always sold out from the big names. Closest someone gets is a reveal party with cheese and wine.
Enjoy for what it is worth - this world of cars we live in are dreams for most. Chris Harris and others are having the time of their lives - not a bad gig!
 

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Hm, unless at least 9,999 people have driven it and raved about it and no more than one has panned it, this cannot be true.

Just sayin'. ;-)
the initial journalist reviews were … not good. This has been one of the biggest and oddest misses from the journalists I can remember in the past few years. Only Henry Catchpole loved it, and it was a strong contrast from the other pre release testers.

I remember thinking it was really strange at the time that Henry was such an outlier, and shortly thereafter the first owners weighed in. I’m a tiny bit surprised none of the journalists have followed up with a “well on second thought, maybe I judged too hastily …” videos.
 

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the initial journalist reviews were … not good. This has been one of the biggest and oddest misses from the journalists I can remember in the past few years. Only Henry Catchpole loved it, and it was a strong contrast from the other pre release testers.

I remember thinking it was really strange at the time that Henry was such an outlier, and shortly thereafter the first owners weighed in. I’m a tiny bit surprised none of the journalists have followed up with a “well on second thought, maybe I judged too hastily …” videos.
1) the car is most likely significantly different today vs a year ago (same with the SF90 btw)
2) when a journalist says the handling is interesting or somethign to that effect, you might want to read between the lines.
the F12 tdfs handling is challenging, interesting, spikey sometimes all of the above at the same time, and i love it exactly for that reason.
3) most owners dont drive the cars journalists do. how often do you take a road car and see how it behaves while drifting at 100mph in 4th gear etc.thye dont push the car, nor do the know how to push the car, nor should they push the car like that on public roads

BUT most importantly, it doesnt matter what journalists think, what matters is that the owners are happy with it, and that certainly seems to be the case. so well done mclaren
 

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1) the car is most likely significantly different today vs a year ago (same with the SF90 btw)
2) when a journalist says the handling is interesting or somethign to that effect, you might want to read between the lines.
the F12 tdfs handling is challenging, interesting, spikey sometimes all of the above at the same time, and i love it exactly for that reason.
3) most owners dont drive the cars journalists do. how often do you take a road car and see how it behaves while drifting at 100mph in 4th gear etc.thye dont push the car, nor do the know how to push the car, nor should they push the car like that on public roads

BUT most importantly, it doesnt matter what journalists think, what matters is that the owners are happy with it, and that certainly seems to be the case. so well done mclaren
I don’t think there’s any evidence of 1 and the actual owners don‘t appear to agree about 2 at all. Neither on track or road. And while some professional drivers were also journalists, I’m not persuaded the median McLaren 765 owner who tracks is less skillful than the median auto journalist. Yeah, not at all.

The journalists just appear to be all wrong on this score. first in their own framing. But published journalists are also supposed to be evaluating cars for its target demographic of owners, not some random criteria. And they utterly failed to predict the owners reaction.

there is just no redeeming the journalists assessments last year.
 

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I don’t think there’s any evidence of 1 and the actual owners don‘t appear to agree about 2 at all. Neither on track or road. And while some professional drivers were also journalists, I’m not persuaded the median McLaren 765 owner who tracks is less skillful than the median auto journalist. Yeah, not at all.

The journalists just appear to be all wrong on this score. first in their own framing. But published journalists are also supposed to be evaluating cars for its target demographic of owners, not some random criteria. And they utterly failed to predict the owners reaction.

there is just no redeeming the journalists assessments last year.
1) see no2) read between the lines, but if i have to spell it out. i know for a fact that the car is rather different from a year ago... do you think that this would be the first (or last time) an almost pre-production car is given to journalists while they continue to tweak setup?
3) having done enough track days with mclaren owners and others, and having seen some decent journalists (harris, meaden and a few others), me thinks you are completely wrong. a journalist that has spent the last 10-20 years driving 20-50cars a year, often on track and having fresh and current impressions from a number of different cars, clearly is no match to a rich middle aged bloke that does 3-5 track days a year, usually in the same car.

over and out, not much point engaging with you.
as i said it doesnt matter what the journalists think, what matters is what type of car mclaren is delivering to their customers and clearly the car is a much better car today than it was year ago..
 

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some decent journalists (harris, meaden and a few others),
yes ... definitely the median of auto journalists there. Also, Harris didn't do the Top Gear review. Did Meaden even publish one ? He didn't do Evo's review either. So this really isn't the amazing gotcha you imagine it to be.

I don't doubt pre-production changes are either possible or even unlikely. But this doesn't help your point. At all. It's still weird they'd sit on that story. They're journalists. And the younger online ones live for clickbait. If it was only about changes finalized in production then ... it's a new year. why not do a new story ? That's how most of these guys get paid. Not everyone is Top Gear or taking manufacturer kick backs. Most people aren't.

Top Gear panned the 765. They look not so smart or competent saying the car is bad at the limit, then the entire production run sells out and the actual owners love it. Catchpole was the only review I recall off hand that aligns with what it's current reputation is. Ollie did Top Gear's review, and I don't doubt for a second he's a more experienced driver than Catchpole.

Situation is still odd.
 

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Boys, unfortunately there is always an agenda and it boils to $$$$. Too bad and great points above. Too many credulous people thinking all is true on line. Only a few of us left! I'll let you know my opinion when ever it gets built!
 

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i wasnt amused when i saw the chris harris "good but not great" video. but maybe thats why i was able to order one 765 myself beeing a mclaren firsttimer. but i drove the 765 at silverstone and it is superb. i am not a good driver and only have minor experience (30.000 km carrera gt, 2.000 km 991 GT3 and 1.500 991 GT2). i tried to race in silverstone going 100% with an instructor and i wasnt able to "loose" control or to skid really. the only pity was i was going so fast i werent able to see anything inside the car.
 

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i wasnt amused when i saw the chris harris "good but not great" video. but maybe thats why i was able to order one 765 myself beeing a mclaren firsttimer. but i drove the 765 at silverstone and it is superb. i am not a good driver and only have minor experience (30.000 km carrera gt, 2.000 km 991 GT3 and 1.500 991 GT2). i tried to race in silverstone going 100% with an instructor and i wasnt able to "loose" control or to skid really. the only pity was i was going so fast i werent able to see anything inside the car.
Sliding the rear end does not (necessarily) mean you've lost control. It means you've exceeded the lateral grip limits of the car/tyre, and the measure of the real handling ability of a car, coupled with driver ability, is whether or not at that point you are able to retain control. This is what the journalists mean when they're talking about the handling of the car. In track/track last Saturday, my rear end went sideways on several occasions (surprisingly, it will go sideways even without the chassis in Track) as I got the power down coming out of three turns in particular, but at no point did I feel as if I was out of control (although there was one, coming onto the pit straight, where I thought for a split second I was going all the way round 😂). In mine (570), corner entry speed and steering angle were key. If I was going too fast, it would understeer, I cranked on more lock to make the turn, which unsettles the balance, and then if you're early on the power (while you're still in the turn) the rear will be loose and will probably slide. Lifting at that point, depending on how far you've slid and which handling mode you are in, may cause a spin by transferring weight from rear to front, so you have to build confidence to the point where you can keep the power down or modulate it slightly, while correcting the slide with the wheel (turning right to go left). In one of the videos, you can hear my passenger squealing as the rear gets loose, and for me it's about the most fun you can have with your clothes on or off.
 
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3) having done enough track days with mclaren owners and others, and having seen some decent journalists (harris, meaden and a few others), me thinks you are completely wrong. a journalist that has spent the last 10-20 years driving 20-50cars a year, often on track and having fresh and current impressions from a number of different cars, clearly is no match to a rich middle aged bloke that does 3-5 track days a year, usually in the same car.
Your misunderstanding what he's saying. He isn't saying those journalists aren't good drivers because they drive similarly to the owners. He saying the owners can be as good of drivers as those journalists. I know quite a few owners (including myself) that could go head to head with the pro's in many conditions. Not every McLaren owner is a 50 something guy with a few bucks that takes their car to the pub and that's it.
 
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Your misunderstanding what he's saying. He isn't saying those journalists aren't good drivers because they drive similarly to the owners. He saying the owners can be as good of drivers as those journalists. I know quite a few owners (including myself) that could go head to head with the pro's in many conditions. Not every McLaren owner is a 50 something guy with a few bucks that takes their car to the pub and that's it.
i know what he is saying, i made the point of 50year olds to exaggerate. i just disagree with him on pretty much everything he said.
cars do change between early test drives and final production spec lockdown. one extreme maybe example of that is all the owners putting in spacers, different tyres, changing camber, pads, rotors/disks etc etc. that is a change of the car since that journo was driving it...
Having spent enough time with the guys that actually develop the cars i have a reasonably well informed view on that.
i also have view on shortcuts that a cash strapped company is making on an every day basis that is a calculated balance between what the average customer will notice and cost savings...
someone who drives cars for a living and is driving more makes in a year than most normal owners will during a lifetime has a broader experience. What he is saying is that someone that does this for a living has equal knowledge or better, as someone who goes out on a sunday drive on a sunny day (exaggerating again for effect)
Journos do tend to push the car much harder than the average owner, partly because it isnt their car....
that doesnt mean that there arent owners who knows what they are doing, there clearly is.
I thought Hildebrandts review of the Senna a couple of years ago, was absolutely brilliant by a guy that knows how to drive and write.

and finallly again, it doesnt matter, as long as the customer is happy.

I love most of my mclarens, i absolutely hated the 600LT spider on P Zeros that it came with, havent experienced a car less stable under heavy braking on a hot day, amongst other things.
the speedtail was more or less undriveable in my view, whenever it actually worked..
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i know what he is saying, i made the point of 50year olds to exaggerate. i just disagree with him on pretty much everything he said.
cars do change between early test drives and final production spec lockdown. one extreme maybe example of that is all the owners putting in spacers, different tyres, changing camber, pads, rotors/disks etc etc. that is a change of the car since that journo was driving it...
Having spent enough time with the guys that actually develop the cars i have a reasonably well informed view on that.
i also have view on shortcuts that a cash strapped company is making on an every day basis that is a calculated balance between what the average customer will notice and cost savings...
someone who drives cars for a living and is driving more makes in a year than most normal owners will during a lifetime has a broader experience. What he is saying is that someone that does this for a living has equal knowledge or better, as someone who goes out on a sunday drive on a sunny day (exaggerating again for effect)
Journos do tend to push the car much harder than the average owner, partly because it isnt their car....
that doesnt mean that there arent owners who knows what they are doing, there clearly is.
I thought Hildebrandts review of the Senna a couple of years ago, was absolutely brilliant by a guy that knows how to drive and write.

and finallly again, it doesnt matter, as long as the customer is happy.

I love most of my mclarens, i absolutely hated the 600LT spider on P Zeros that it came with, havent experienced a car less stable under heavy braking on a hot day, amongst other things.
the speedtail was more or less undriveable in my view, whenever it actually worked..
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You're suggesting that the cars journalists get are physically different with different hardware than what is delivered to customers? The customers talking about how they love them are literally straight off delivery. They've changed NOTHING, same tires, everything. Media cars get everything identical to delivery cars with the exception of software that might be different as glitches are found. There isn't a single 765 owner that got it with delivery miles then immediately changed rotors, pads, tires, and alignment. If the media cars were going to be different, wouldn't they be made to be BETTER than delivery, so it got a better review from the journalist than the owners?

I do think a strong majority of McLaren owners don't know what the car is really capable of (I realized this test driving with customers, and scaring them in their own cars), but I also think the ones that buy the special cars like LT's are more likely to push the limits.
 

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You're suggesting that the cars journalists get are physically different with different hardware than what is delivered to customers? The customers talking about how they love them are literally straight off delivery. They've changed NOTHING, same tires, everything. Media cars get everything identical to delivery cars with the exception of software that might be different as glitches are found. There isn't a single 765 owner that got it with delivery miles then immediately changed rotors, pads, tires, and alignment. If the media cars were going to be different, wouldn't they be made to be BETTER than delivery, so it got a better review from the journalist than the owners?

I do think a strong majority of McLaren owners don't know what the car is really capable of (I realized this test driving with customers, and scaring them in their own cars), but I also think the ones that buy the special cars like LT's are more likely to push the limits.
agree that a lot of LT customers will push them more, but equally allocation of a LT car is not based on driving competence. Some of the slowest and worst ferrari drivers i have seen have been driving LaFs... ;).
comment on changing stuff wasnt specific to 765LT, just look at this forum about all the tinkering going on.
all i am saying is that the development of a car is a multi year process where they keep on adjusting things, including working on tyre compounds to fit the current setup etc. and that is a process that will continue until spec lockdown. The Senna was ruined by chosing the wrong tyre compound at the last minute..(still the best road car i have driven on a track ever though)

is it so hard to believe that there might be some changes happening between early press test drives and final spec lockdown, especially if those early test drives have pointed out some issues?
How many months ahead of first customer delivery did Harris test the car?
check out the topgear review of the SF90 by Chris harris as a great example, where at the end Chris gets to drive a car with a completely different setup that was a different car to drive on the limit.

i think we are broadly in agreement, i just strongly disagree with how this whole thing started, i.e. journos have no idea what they are talking about, owners love the car.
and again the only thing that matters is that owners love the car, MAYBE they should be thanking the journos for fixing the car for them instead of spewing bile at them... ;)
 
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agree that a lot of LT customers will push them more, but equally allocation of a LT car is not based on driving competence. Some of the slowest and worst ferrari drivers i have seen have been driving LaFs... ;).
Interestingly enough, I've never thought of a LaF as a track car, only an assett. Those drivers were stressing about how much money they're losing on it because they added 3 miles to the odometer.

comment on changing stuff wasnt specific to 765LT, just look at this forum about all the tinkering going on.
all i am saying is that the development of a car is a multi year process where they keep on adjusting things, including working on tyre compounds to fit the current setup etc. and that is a process that will continue until spec lockdown. The Senna was ruined by chosing the wrong tyre compound at the last minute..(still the best road car i have driven on a track ever though)
I know once people get them they tinker, I nearly immediately did with mine. But the only people immediately changing wheels and tires aren't driving it more than a cruiser, so their reviews of the car as they receive them are valid. I'd say a strong majority aren't tinkering till at least year 2 or 3 or even out of warranty, so most are driving them as delivered regardless of model. I'm not a professional test driver, but I wouldn't expect playing with compounds on the same model tire to make the car go from "this car is bad" to "this car is great". I have gone from P Zero's (trash) to PS4S's (fantastic) and made it a different car, but that was more than just compound adjustments along the way. Even I can differentiate what's a limitation of the tires and a limitation of a car.

is it so hard to believe that there might be some changes happening between early press test drives and final spec lockdown, especially if those early test drives have pointed out some issues?
How many months ahead of first customer delivery did Harris test the car?
check out the topgear review of the SF90 by Chris harris as a great example, where at the end Chris gets to drive a car with a completely different setup that was a different car to drive on the limit.
I have no doubt there are some tweaks, especially with engine and transmission related software. I don't see them changing wheel offsets, transmission gearing, body shape, significant aero, etc. In one of my lines of work, I NEVER show a pre-production product to customers that won't perform just like they'll receive. The worst thing I could do is hand over an incomplete product to be reviewed.

i think we are broadly in agreement, i just strongly disagree with how this whole thing started, i.e. journos have no idea what they are talking about, owners love the car.
and again the only thing that matters is that owners love the car, MAYBE they should be thanking the journos for fixing the car for them instead of spewing bile at them... ;)
Shouldn't their in house test drivers be the ones doing the fixing? If a manufacturer handed me a pre-production car to test/review I would gladly report my findings to them with good and bad and give them the opportunity to explain themselves and/or fix what I disliked if they felt it necessary before publicly displaying my findings.
 

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i know what he is saying, i made the point of 50year olds to exaggerate. i just disagree with him on pretty much everything he said.
cars do change between early test drives and final production spec lockdown. one extreme maybe example of that is all the owners putting in spacers, different tyres, changing camber, pads, rotors/disks etc etc. that is a change of the car since that journo was driving it...
Having spent enough time with the guys that actually develop the cars i have a reasonably well informed view on that.
i also have view on shortcuts that a cash strapped company is making on an every day basis that is a calculated balance between what the average customer will notice and cost savings...
someone who drives cars for a living and is driving more makes in a year than most normal owners will during a lifetime has a broader experience. What he is saying is that someone that does this for a living has equal knowledge or better, as someone who goes out on a sunday drive on a sunny day (exaggerating again for effect)
Journos do tend to push the car much harder than the average owner, partly because it isnt their car....
that doesnt mean that there arent owners who knows what they are doing, there clearly is.
I thought Hildebrandts review of the Senna a couple of years ago, was absolutely brilliant by a guy that knows how to drive and write.

and finallly again, it doesnt matter, as long as the customer is happy.

I love most of my mclarens, i absolutely hated the 600LT spider on P Zeros that it came with, havent experienced a car less stable under heavy braking on a hot day, amongst other things.
the speedtail was more or less undriveable in my view, whenever it actually worked..
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I think you deeply misunderstand what I'm saying. It literally doesn't matter how good drivers these journalists are. Professional or not. No difference. With respect to this story ...

They are bad journalists. They gone and fucked up this story.

Either they fucked up the story about the launch of a marquee car by profoundly mistaking it in the frame of its future ownership (which then sold out the entire run and its quite beloved) OR they fairly cravenly sank a very juicy story about how McLaren fucked up its launch with pre production cars that were different / unready / whatever.

Doesn't matter. Either way, the journalists look bad in light of what nearly 800 owners actually have to say about it.

I'm still a little surprised none of the journalists who are, clearly just flat out wrong, have done a follow up story. "The 2021 run is so much better than what I tested!!" or "I might not have fully appreciated just how awesome this is". It doesn't matter which. The lack of any follow up for a full year is kinda weird. Their job is to do stories.
 

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I think you deeply misunderstand what I'm saying. It literally doesn't matter how good drivers these journalists are. Professional or not. No difference. With respect to this story ...

They are bad journalists. They gone and fucked up this story.

Either they fucked up the story about the launch of a marquee car by profoundly mistaking it in the frame of its future ownership (which then sold out the entire run and its quite beloved) OR they fairly cravenly sank a very juicy story about how McLaren fucked up its launch with pre production cars that were different / unready / whatever.

Doesn't matter. Either way, the journalists look bad in light of what nearly 800 owners actually have to say about it.

I'm still a little surprised none of the journalists who are, clearly just flat out wrong, have done a follow up story. "The 2021 run is so much better than what I tested!!" or "I might not have fully appreciated just how awesome this is". It doesn't matter which. The lack of any follow up for a full year is kinda weird. Their job is to do stories.
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I think you deeply misunderstand what I'm saying. It literally doesn't matter how good drivers these journalists are. Professional or not. No difference. With respect to this story ...

They are bad journalists. They gone and fucked up this story.

Either they fucked up the story about the launch of a marquee car by profoundly mistaking it in the frame of its future ownership (which then sold out the entire run and its quite beloved) OR they fairly cravenly sank a very juicy story about how McLaren fucked up its launch with pre production cars that were different / unready / whatever.

Doesn't matter. Either way, the journalists look bad in light of what nearly 800 owners actually have to say about it.

I'm still a little surprised none of the journalists who are, clearly just flat out wrong, have done a follow up story. "The 2021 run is so much better than what I tested!!" or "I might not have fully appreciated just how awesome this is". It doesn't matter which. The lack of any follow up for a full year is kinda weird. Their job is to do stories.
Keep in mind the journalists are appealing to their audience - as would anyone in business.
Anyone who owns a Mclaren and or loves the brand knew this was going to be a tough review - regardless of the LT.
There are a ton of people that love Chris Harris and that's who he is catering to - 800 owners add Spider soon to be 2500 in a few years as the cars turn over - time will tell as you said it's sold out so it's up to the owners and Mclaren to determine the fate of the LT.

Owning cars that took a decade plus to rise to the top - the partnership between dealers facotory and ownership in the long term creates brand and car values by the owners experience.
If Mclaren and owners would treat the brand with more respect there would be a better result for all.
In other words the owners and Mclaren by their actions could change the attitude of reviews like Chris Harris and make him in time look how many of us feel today.
Chris Harris means nothing at this point - it's the owners and Mclaren that will determine the value of the LT.
 
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