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the initial journalist reviews were … not good. This has been one of the biggest and oddest misses from the journalists I can remember in the past few years. Only Henry Catchpole loved it, and it was a strong contrast from the other pre release testers.

I remember thinking it was really strange at the time that Henry was such an outlier, and shortly thereafter the first owners weighed in. I’m a tiny bit surprised none of the journalists have followed up with a “well on second thought, maybe I judged too hastily …” videos.
1) the car is most likely significantly different today vs a year ago (same with the SF90 btw)
2) when a journalist says the handling is interesting or somethign to that effect, you might want to read between the lines.
the F12 tdfs handling is challenging, interesting, spikey sometimes all of the above at the same time, and i love it exactly for that reason.
3) most owners dont drive the cars journalists do. how often do you take a road car and see how it behaves while drifting at 100mph in 4th gear etc.thye dont push the car, nor do the know how to push the car, nor should they push the car like that on public roads

BUT most importantly, it doesnt matter what journalists think, what matters is that the owners are happy with it, and that certainly seems to be the case. so well done mclaren
 

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I don’t think there’s any evidence of 1 and the actual owners don‘t appear to agree about 2 at all. Neither on track or road. And while some professional drivers were also journalists, I’m not persuaded the median McLaren 765 owner who tracks is less skillful than the median auto journalist. Yeah, not at all.

The journalists just appear to be all wrong on this score. first in their own framing. But published journalists are also supposed to be evaluating cars for its target demographic of owners, not some random criteria. And they utterly failed to predict the owners reaction.

there is just no redeeming the journalists assessments last year.
1) see no2) read between the lines, but if i have to spell it out. i know for a fact that the car is rather different from a year ago... do you think that this would be the first (or last time) an almost pre-production car is given to journalists while they continue to tweak setup?
3) having done enough track days with mclaren owners and others, and having seen some decent journalists (harris, meaden and a few others), me thinks you are completely wrong. a journalist that has spent the last 10-20 years driving 20-50cars a year, often on track and having fresh and current impressions from a number of different cars, clearly is no match to a rich middle aged bloke that does 3-5 track days a year, usually in the same car.

over and out, not much point engaging with you.
as i said it doesnt matter what the journalists think, what matters is what type of car mclaren is delivering to their customers and clearly the car is a much better car today than it was year ago..
 

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Your misunderstanding what he's saying. He isn't saying those journalists aren't good drivers because they drive similarly to the owners. He saying the owners can be as good of drivers as those journalists. I know quite a few owners (including myself) that could go head to head with the pro's in many conditions. Not every McLaren owner is a 50 something guy with a few bucks that takes their car to the pub and that's it.
i know what he is saying, i made the point of 50year olds to exaggerate. i just disagree with him on pretty much everything he said.
cars do change between early test drives and final production spec lockdown. one extreme maybe example of that is all the owners putting in spacers, different tyres, changing camber, pads, rotors/disks etc etc. that is a change of the car since that journo was driving it...
Having spent enough time with the guys that actually develop the cars i have a reasonably well informed view on that.
i also have view on shortcuts that a cash strapped company is making on an every day basis that is a calculated balance between what the average customer will notice and cost savings...
someone who drives cars for a living and is driving more makes in a year than most normal owners will during a lifetime has a broader experience. What he is saying is that someone that does this for a living has equal knowledge or better, as someone who goes out on a sunday drive on a sunny day (exaggerating again for effect)
Journos do tend to push the car much harder than the average owner, partly because it isnt their car....
that doesnt mean that there arent owners who knows what they are doing, there clearly is.
I thought Hildebrandts review of the Senna a couple of years ago, was absolutely brilliant by a guy that knows how to drive and write.

and finallly again, it doesnt matter, as long as the customer is happy.

I love most of my mclarens, i absolutely hated the 600LT spider on P Zeros that it came with, havent experienced a car less stable under heavy braking on a hot day, amongst other things.
the speedtail was more or less undriveable in my view, whenever it actually worked..
.
 

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You're suggesting that the cars journalists get are physically different with different hardware than what is delivered to customers? The customers talking about how they love them are literally straight off delivery. They've changed NOTHING, same tires, everything. Media cars get everything identical to delivery cars with the exception of software that might be different as glitches are found. There isn't a single 765 owner that got it with delivery miles then immediately changed rotors, pads, tires, and alignment. If the media cars were going to be different, wouldn't they be made to be BETTER than delivery, so it got a better review from the journalist than the owners?

I do think a strong majority of McLaren owners don't know what the car is really capable of (I realized this test driving with customers, and scaring them in their own cars), but I also think the ones that buy the special cars like LT's are more likely to push the limits.
agree that a lot of LT customers will push them more, but equally allocation of a LT car is not based on driving competence. Some of the slowest and worst ferrari drivers i have seen have been driving LaFs... ;).
comment on changing stuff wasnt specific to 765LT, just look at this forum about all the tinkering going on.
all i am saying is that the development of a car is a multi year process where they keep on adjusting things, including working on tyre compounds to fit the current setup etc. and that is a process that will continue until spec lockdown. The Senna was ruined by chosing the wrong tyre compound at the last minute..(still the best road car i have driven on a track ever though)

is it so hard to believe that there might be some changes happening between early press test drives and final spec lockdown, especially if those early test drives have pointed out some issues?
How many months ahead of first customer delivery did Harris test the car?
check out the topgear review of the SF90 by Chris harris as a great example, where at the end Chris gets to drive a car with a completely different setup that was a different car to drive on the limit.

i think we are broadly in agreement, i just strongly disagree with how this whole thing started, i.e. journos have no idea what they are talking about, owners love the car.
and again the only thing that matters is that owners love the car, MAYBE they should be thanking the journos for fixing the car for them instead of spewing bile at them... ;)
 

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Cadster - doing searches to spec my 812GTS I read your posts on another forum - congrats on your 812 our spec is similar.

Ferrari could build a cardboard box put a 6 cylinder in it and everyone who actually buys Ferrari's will think it's the best car ever made and if it is limited they will have a temper tantrum to get one. The flip side is the big non owner audience will make fun of the car and it's cost of a cup holder. I have a 7k push to drink water bottle in my Senna :)

My point is very few owners care about Chris Harris or forums - these reviews appeal to the other crowd which is much larger than the owners. A West is a completely different owner as is his experience / appeal to what Chris Harris says or does and the car is subject to his drive that day. A car can change dramatically from beginning to end and there are a lot of examples in cars that do just that - the last cars from the factory or any product are always better and worth more than the first. Performance gains tweaks tires brakes vs Cars & Coffee with a golden handled feather duster owner are worlds apart. You have to take who is saying what and perspective is key.

I run a group of 9k C&C - the conversations from the cars go from Chris Harris likes to real owners are completely different and when a smaller group goes on track is when the real truth of the car comes out. Guys talk about being competent drivers very few exist and are willing to push a car until it spins to figure out the limit.

No offense to anyone but there is a huge difference between someone who thinks they are fast and someone who is.

LT is slightly behind in speed of the Senna - 720 with Senna tech package.
Senna with a few added tweaks could have been much faster but the factory preferred IMO to make some changes to save it's owners from pushing the car near the limit - which A West alluded to in part.
i made them take away that push to drink option... :0 with a gas tank that lasts 20 minutes on the track, i figured i could live without a drink for that long ;)
812GTS is a great GT car. I didnt like my Superfast, it was a GT car trying to be a sports car. In fact i drove the Senna and the Superfast back to back on some twisty roads and sold the Superfast. the 812GTS is just a nice car to cruise around in, it doesnt pretend or try to be a sports car. i think you will like the 812GTS
Oh and yes there are plenty of ferraristi that see no wrong in anything Ferrari ever does, and then there are plenty who dont buy everything they sell and still love the brand. Just like with Mclarens, you can love the brand and still be critical when they fail to deliver...
 

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Ferrari has it somewhat easier - todays new F car red panels wrapped 812C engine was expected and still well received.
What are the chances Chris Harris gets that car to review. Every brand comes down to the owners and Ferrari understands that relationship better than any factory in the world.
No ADM - you buy in or you don't get in and if you mess up your out.
after chris SF90 reviews.... maybe not ;)
 

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I don't know - small fish don't buy 3 - 500k cars.
Mclaren / Ferrari those are big boy toys. I think that is the premise of CH. Porsche builds a car for a lot less that offers near the same amount of fun.

I like and own both brands - just saying Ferrari has rules and no ADM which I truly dislike flippers and dealers using fake names and charging ADM and even worse these guys who are you tube heroes receiving limited editions as brand ambassadors aka Ford GT types.
Power of the brand, when you know you can sell every car, and the factory more or less decides allocations and if a dealer is invited to put some names forward they will be vetted....
Porsche is in a similar situation with their GT and RS cars
also in general not allowing youtubers to test limited edition cars, trying my hardest to avoid seeing shmee/jwww et al driving a senna badly before getting delivery of my own (which still was the first customer car delivery in the UK) was a low point of that experience...
ADM is a uniquely american thing, glad we dont have that crap in Europe.
 

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Porsche has been leading all of them for decades. And it is not about retaining resale value. Sure the occasional hypercar retains its value - 918, 959, Carrera GT - but the vast majority of them depreciate like crazy and those of us who can wait get a great car for a fair price.

I personally am extremely happy that my 570 is depreciating like crazy. I bought mine just one year old and it had already depreciated $60k! I almost certainly wouldn't have bought one if it was at the $225k list price.

And now I'm depreciating it as fast as I can by putting lots of miles and smiles on it! If there's any value left when I'm done with it, the next guy who might've only been able to afford a Porsche can have some more fun with it.

And, hopefully, I can buy a new, year old, Mac for $60k off of list again.
not sure how sustainable of a strategy that is for Mclaren longer term. just like socialists dont get, eventually you run out of other people money. i.e. people stop buying the cars if there is excessive depreciation. Just look at sales of Ferrari V12 historically, the F12 and 812 are outliers, they used to suffer much great depreciaton than the V8s and volume reflected that.
I paid GBP45k below list for our latest brand new 720 spider... will still lose a ton on it, but that is ok as it is a great car
 

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Care to elaborate on such a bold comment?

Software, hardware, what exactly???
nothing bold about that. why is it so hard for you guys to accept that cars change during development and in response to feedback.
the race cars that we drive change significantly over the years as we get to know them better.
 

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Chris Harris latest Top Gear Review bears little resemblance to his original reviews 18 months ago, where he found the car twitchy, difficult to control and unpredictable both on track and on the road.Owners of the 765LT and others have heaped universal praise over the car. Harris change of opinion is due to one of the following possibilities:

1. The 765 has undergone a substantive set up and alignment change which now suits Harris preferences;
2. Harris originally was critical of the car so as not to appear as a Mclaren fanboy due to his glowing commentary of the Senna, 600LT and the 720S;
3. The car has not been changed, but after a lengthy period of driving the latest cars, he has come to appreciate how uniquely stellar the 765 is.

Prior to purchasing a new model car, reviews take on additional import since potential buyers desire to gain more knowledge about the driving dynamics and other characteristics of the car. However, after owning and experiencing the car, reviews continue to be mysteriously relevant. Why would it matter what others' assessment of the car is? Should not the only opinion of relevance be the owner and how he feels about the car? Apparently not. Due to the pervasive insecurity of super car owners, there is this obsession to have ones purchase validated by others, especially the ersatz experts. Even if we naively accept that all magazine reviewers are scrupulously honest in their reviews and are not influenced by financial or editorial concerns, their evaluations are nevertheless highly subjective and emblematic of their individual preferences and priorities.
well it is a good thing you answered your own questions... 18months as you mention, sure mclaren did zero development work on the car during that period, makes perfect sense.
and why is that a bad thing somehow? Mclaren kept on working on the car to give the owners the car they deserved. how is that bad, why arent you guys happy about that mclaren has delivered a car to its owners that the owners seem to love? and maybe part of the reason for that is feedback from competent drivers?
 

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The car was a launch. Not a development car.

Hence my question?

I’m well aware of changes made along the way for issues. I’m asking what the issues were that warranted the “so called” change.
dont want to be rude, but what would entitle you to know exactly what a company does during development?
enjoy what looks like a great car instead and be glad they delivered a car which is loved by the customers
 

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Whatever, again that was not what I asked.

Chris Harris was negative in his initial review and stated he believes the car was changed. Another poster chimed in and said changes were made.

I could care less if they made changes or not.

I find some of his reviews entertaining and others are bs IMO. He is at another level now that it would be hard for a manufacturer to shun him like others have done before.

All my LTs have been fantastic and I am sure my 765LT spider will be also.
i love my 675LT/MSO HS, did not like the 600LT spider on Corsa at all, Zero torque, extremely unstable under braking, really disappointing car. the 675LT beat anything in its class at the day
so i hope your 765LT experience will be closer to my 675 vs my 600 ;)
 

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Yes I am aware of Mclaren's use of shims. I am talking more about the general public and people who don't track who put way too much weight into track tests and laptimes when constructing their imaginary garage. Maybe this does not have an immediate effect on sales but the assumption that better laptimes = better driving car diffuses into the general perception of the brand when in reality it really should not hold anywhere near the importance it does today, especially considering how much times can change if variables are not controlled and whether or not they are massaged.
totally agree
Laptimes in magazines by journalists are a joke for so many reasons. But it makes for good PR and good TV..
specially prepped cars, tyres, turbos tuned up. Some brands seem to have one car for laptimes and another one for 0-60times.
but even if you ignore that, i dare anyone trying to match a laptime at say Barcelona in the afternoon vs one set the morning
Track temperature, ambient temperature
go out on the track on Wednesday before a race a weekend, vs a Monday after the race weekend (assuming no rain)
new tarmac vs old tarmac on the same circuit
new tyres vs old tyres.
road legal tyres vs tyres used for Nordscleife times
fitting of roll cage, vs a car that customers can buy
taping up the car for lower drag
etc etc.

It was a problem though when a 765LT is slower than a 720. even if you put a 720 on the perfect conditions and a 765 on some of the least favourable, it really still should be quicker...
But that seem to have been fixed
 

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Chris is just trying to find an excuse to save face. He knows he got it wrong initially.

The car he drove recently, and liked, is the exact same car I drove in December 2020. McLaren changed nothing.

mclaren recirculates the number plates if that is what you are basing it on.
yeah and of course Chris has no idea what he is talking about and manufacturers never do any development of their cars...
and the germans didnt drive a 720 around hockenheim quicker than a 765LT either, all fake news.
personally i think you are mistaken, because surely you know a lot more than Chris, and have better access to the test and development team than say I and others do...
still dont know why care, from all accounts the 765LT is now a great car, maybe just maybe you shoudl be thankful that early testers pointed out shortcomings in the car and that Mclaren has rectified it.
 

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It is visibly the same same car. Obvious to anyone.

But you need to be a smartarse ;)
and you checked the software version, suspension setup etc before and after?
again just be happy they are finally delivering a brilliant car, instead of shitting on Chris. Of all the british journalists he is probably the one that calls it the way he sees it the most without consideration to any politics.. SF90 review for Topgear is a point in case.
 

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I arrived early to find the stunning white pre-production car - I wanted one and was eager to get on with specifying my own car.
Ferrari "special press cars" but Mclaren would offer a car that wasn't prepared.
Mac relies on customer confidence to pre purchase - same as every factory so why set up for failure.
It's like an audit firm press release to lower stock price and comes back to re - audit and buys stock and then releases all is grand - we were wrong then but right now - odd

Mac fans and others are tired of the false narratives - CH bashed Lambo / F8 and praised SF90 - he gets exactly what he bargained for - 500+ owners down deep don't care what he says and if they did they would have missed out on the 765LT.
Now it's a cake and eat it to scenarios- we could all lighten up and enjoy.
you are making less and less sense. Chris was highly critical of the SF90, loved the Hurcan STO
mute here we go
 

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Clearly did not like the car but then comes back to test and spec a car same day -
720 and Senna proven - LT was a guaranteed home run with 1500+ and line around the block. CH takes a second drive and just so happened to have an allocation / spec session waiting after a test drive - whatever the truth is the results appear to meet and exceed what every customer expected.
Chris has most definitley not ordered a 765LT
 
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