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All good fun - personally have not test driven or driven any car since I was 16 prior to purchasing.
The reviews carry a lot of weight - limited editions are always sold out from the big names. Closest someone gets is a reveal party with cheese and wine.
Enjoy for what it is worth - this world of cars we live in are dreams for most. Chris Harris and others are having the time of their lives - not a bad gig!
 

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I think you deeply misunderstand what I'm saying. It literally doesn't matter how good drivers these journalists are. Professional or not. No difference. With respect to this story ...

They are bad journalists. They gone and fucked up this story.

Either they fucked up the story about the launch of a marquee car by profoundly mistaking it in the frame of its future ownership (which then sold out the entire run and its quite beloved) OR they fairly cravenly sank a very juicy story about how McLaren fucked up its launch with pre production cars that were different / unready / whatever.

Doesn't matter. Either way, the journalists look bad in light of what nearly 800 owners actually have to say about it.

I'm still a little surprised none of the journalists who are, clearly just flat out wrong, have done a follow up story. "The 2021 run is so much better than what I tested!!" or "I might not have fully appreciated just how awesome this is". It doesn't matter which. The lack of any follow up for a full year is kinda weird. Their job is to do stories.
Keep in mind the journalists are appealing to their audience - as would anyone in business.
Anyone who owns a Mclaren and or loves the brand knew this was going to be a tough review - regardless of the LT.
There are a ton of people that love Chris Harris and that's who he is catering to - 800 owners add Spider soon to be 2500 in a few years as the cars turn over - time will tell as you said it's sold out so it's up to the owners and Mclaren to determine the fate of the LT.

Owning cars that took a decade plus to rise to the top - the partnership between dealers facotory and ownership in the long term creates brand and car values by the owners experience.
If Mclaren and owners would treat the brand with more respect there would be a better result for all.
In other words the owners and Mclaren by their actions could change the attitude of reviews like Chris Harris and make him in time look how many of us feel today.
Chris Harris means nothing at this point - it's the owners and Mclaren that will determine the value of the LT.
 

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Time will tell - cars at the end of the run are far different from the ones at the beginning.
Factories are constantly tweaking the cars and the reasons / results are mixed. The Senna could have been much faster but the factory literally slowed it down. In the case of the LT it's the opposite which is what I believe A West was alluding to on the Senna. My prior post is lost due to the wet connection - I think perspective and time will prove to be different than CH review.
 

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i made them take away that push to drink option... :0 with a gas tank that lasts 20 minutes on the track, i figured i could live without a drink for that long ;)
812GTS is a great GT car. I didnt like my Superfast, it was a GT car trying to be a sports car. In fact i drove the Senna and the Superfast back to back on some twisty roads and sold the Superfast. the 812GTS is just a nice car to cruise around in, it doesnt pretend or try to be a sports car. i think you will like the 812GTS
Oh and yes there are plenty of ferraristi that see no wrong in anything Ferrari ever does, and then there are plenty who dont buy everything they sell and still love the brand. Just like with Mclarens, you can love the brand and still be critical when they fail to deliver...
Ferrari has it somewhat easier - todays new F car red panels wrapped 812C engine was expected and still well received.
What are the chances Chris Harris gets that car to review. Every brand comes down to the owners and Ferrari understands that relationship better than any factory in the world.
No ADM - you buy in or you don't get in and if you mess up your out.
 

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Ferrari has definitely got an effective method. McLaren is in a different stage as a car company though and I appreciate it. I don’t qualify to be a special Ferrari customer and McLaren’s welcoming approach is very effective to get me as a loyal customer.

765LT coupe, keeper for sure. Adding 765LT spider (most likely a keeper, the only non-coupe). I recently wanted something to play with. Found an amazing deal on an F8. In the end, the customer experience made me much more excited about a 675LT so I went with that.

Thank you McLaren for welcoming small fish.:cool:
I don't know - small fish don't buy 3 - 500k cars.
Mclaren / Ferrari those are big boy toys. I think that is the premise of CH. Porsche builds a car for a lot less that offers near the same amount of fun.

I like and own both brands - just saying Ferrari has rules and no ADM which I truly dislike flippers and dealers using fake names and charging ADM and even worse these guys who are you tube heroes receiving limited editions as brand ambassadors aka Ford GT types.
 

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Power of the brand, when you know you can sell every car, and the factory more or less decides allocations and if a dealer is invited to put some names forward they will be vetted....
Porsche is in a similar situation with their GT and RS cars
also in general not allowing youtubers to test limited edition cars, trying my hardest to avoid seeing shmee/jwww et al driving a senna badly before getting delivery of my own (which still was the first customer car delivery in the UK) was a low point of that experience...
ADM is a uniquely american thing, glad we dont have that crap in Europe.
US dealers / customers in general are odd - more about resale than enjoyment, which is dealer driven as they prefer used cars in the showroom to be near new - penalizing the customer who enjoys the car.

Ferrari address this by offering the customers with the most cars preferential treatment. Owners who represent the brand are treated with the most respect.
Dealers who charge ADM and play games should be penalized not rewarded. Ferrari knows their customers are self made - tell them what they want to hear and they will listen. Porsche Mclaren and others who tell their customers to pay more is an insult and ruins the brand at the very dealership that is supposed to be representing the brand - nuts!

My hope is Mac and others follow Ferrari like footsteps vs others who's dealers are in it for the short term / opportunists. Mclaren isn't Ferrari but in the auto industry, it still holds true - you lead follow or get out.
 

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Porsche has been leading all of them for decades. And it is not about retaining resale value. Sure the occasional hypercar retains its value - 918, 959, Carrera GT - but the vast majority of them depreciate like crazy and those of us who can wait get a great car for a fair price.

I personally am extremely happy that my 570 is depreciating like crazy. I bought mine just one year old and it had already depreciated $60k! I almost certainly wouldn't have bought one if it was at the $225k list price.

And now I'm depreciating it as fast as I can by putting lots of miles and smiles on it! If there's any value left when I'm done with it, the next guy who might've only been able to afford a Porsche can have some more fun with it.

And, hopefully, I can buy a new, year old, Mac for $60k off of list again.
Ferrari makes an average of 70k per car - world's benchmark brand.
Porsche nor any factory makes a run of 500 cars at 2.7m dollar per and sells out again and again and again using the same engine that is in their cars at .20 on the dollar. Ferrari is on their way to making 10,000 cars and still has a line out the door around the block and down the street - but my point was they don't charge over msrp but the buy in a little rough. I bought a used MP4-12c 10 years ago at a huge discount and lost more on that car going back almost a decade than any other car - fact is still wish I had it as it was a great machine.
 

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You can't "lose" on a car unless you somehow consider it an investment and never drive it.
But my point was that Porsche has something like 10 times Ferrari's revenue and 5 times earnings (I could be off a little). So Porsche leads Ferrari by a lot. And my point was that it wasn't by making cars that the poor buyers thought would be great investments, but by making lots of great cars that depreciate like every other car, including the vast majority of Ferrari's. Cars are not investments. Stocks and Bonds are.
ok.
 

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That's precisely how people figured out more were made than claimed.

Rolls Royce values drop to 30% of new the day they come off warranty. They don't care about depreciation, once a car is sold they made their money. McLaren is the same way.
Owned a Cullinan and lost 5% after two years and could have made 5% if I took the time to sell on my own vs trade in. Few weeks ago bought a Dawn Black Badge and can sell it for 50k or more over msrp. To address the 30% off warranty - a lot of that has to do with corporate leases that get turned in and those companies actually made their 30% by the Gov't deduction on a car that slid under the farm equipment SUV weight category. My guess is most made above the 30% vs lost it and enjoyed their vehicle.

Rolls does care - they offer trips Monterey and many other ways to make you feel part of their family - cars for some is a lifestyle that owners buy into and when pulling up to their 20m jet or 100m yacht is - just something they do.

Mclaren also cares - I got whacked by a cowboy salesman and Mclaren mgmt. stepped up and secured me an LT Carbon edition to remedy.

You and others are certainly entitled based off your experience - totally fine but others including myself have a completely different experience.

As far as Ferrari and their past - there were games but once public and got caught all issues were addressed and there is zero tolerance for games of allocation etc.
Ferrari in Vegas - canned as were many others. VIN numbers are heavily watched - when a car arrives at Port it's run thru the ringer and then some - Porsche got caught the worst and paid not only fines but jail time.

I'm simply saying - buying cars is an investment in time and money and how one wishes to treat that investment has a lot to do with the result / sale.

Going back to a lot of wasted time on the Ferrari debacle of more than stated - my 16M was actually lower as Ferrari shuttered in 2009 due to owners and dealers cancelling orders. The 599 Aperta and a few others seemed to be a problem but after many hours days weeks years it was less than 20 or so and that wasn't even proven. Keep in mind Enzo hated customers and it was all about the passion to race finish and place. For fun watch Carroll Shelby in action when he told customers to go f themselves and nearly went broke doing so as did Enzo Lamborghini many times and Aston I think 8 times has declared bankruptcy.

The old guys didn't care about anything but winning and they didn't go home at 3:30pm it was more like 3:30 am - todays bean counters and stockholders and Gov't are far from the engineering racing mentality of extracting everything they had to perform. Mass production ROI these words never entered the early exotic factories but now that they have it's a rare gem that reflects the past and there aren't imo many more to come as most of the great ones have already been produced.

Anyway - expect what saved Porsche to arrive soon ... one more Mac (suv) on the dance floor.
 

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You've kind of proven my point. RR sees you bought new and offers an experience to keep you buying another new RR. If I bought a 10 year old Ghost they don't care who I am, what I paid, or how much anyone lost. The thing with used car values in the last 2 years is an anomaly. I bought my 12C nearly 3.5 years and 26k miles ago and I can probably sell it for what I paid for it. I'm pretty positive nobody at McLaren corporate cares about me because I'm not on a list to buy the next new big thing, and that's fine.
Maybe I shouldn't post here or with you as we don't know one another but if you truly believe Mclaren doesn't care about their customers old or new - I disagree. They built a car to last a long time - there was a time when Mclaren gave all their MP4 customers an upgrade of hp for free to their existing customers. Buying the next thing is what we all do - until we don't.

I go to events where people stopped buying decades ago and racers stopped racing decades ago and both are treated if not better certainly equal to those buying / racing today. I can't tell you what to think but it's just not true from my experience.

By the way - when purchased my 2nd RR as I walked into a dealer for the first time who did not know me or anything about me wearing work out clothes. Never spoke to anyone but the salesman.

I have been on forums a long time and met a lot of people from forums - we are all more alike than different. This thing of you vs me is ridiculous. I don't care how much or what someone else has or does not have. Here to share experiences and ownership and more so to listen and learn
 

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see this is a story. And nobody wants to write it ? While it’s interesting in its own right, it also has greater implications for McLaren. Why the F did they have the car reviewed before it was ready ? It’s not like they don’t have drivers. Or if they felt they had to get outside feedback, to do it under NDA.

This launch was crucial. A misstep here is a big deal and business misjudgment. Imagine a world in which the 765 isn’t loved by the owners and takes much longer to sell out. It’d call into question the viability of the company’s entire product plan. Did they rush it because they absolutely had to sell anything to stay afloat, they rolled the dice on this launch, came up a bit short and heroically retrofitted it before delivery ? Or did they really misjudge their own product and get surprised by the feedback ?
It may be a great story but doesn't every factory improve their cars until the last one is produced and even after.
We can go back to the MP4 - Mac offered 30 more hp free.
First LT laid solid foundation, next thing you know someone went shopping in Senna parts bin and stuffed the LT full of Senna - I think that's the story.
Porsche stuffs big bro's engine inside lil bro - guys go nuts while 765LT is 1/2 the price of Senna.
 

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this is not even remotely the same as whiffing on the initial press reviews and overhauling the car before delivery. If that is indeed what happened …
Who knows what happened - it's a process when cars are being tested produced and so on.
Maybe Harris got an early drive and couldn't wait to whine or maybe he's just a whiner as he sounds like a little kid and drives like one in his reviews. I think he has an axe to grind on any car priced above his beloved P.

He does the same thing with the SF90 -
 

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No, not every factory improves cars along the line. They might fix a problematic whatever by revising software, or improper installation procedure, or just a poorly designed part. The free power upgrade on 12C's was driven by the 650s being the same car with more power just after people bought a car. Quite often McLaren supersedes a part on an old model because it was used on a newer model. In the case of the power upgrade, it was a software update that cost them nothing to do.
So as the high end exotic factories learn more they don't address issues - interesting.
FordGT GT3RS CarreraGT SF90 Speciale Aventador Huracan MP4 - could list many more and second year / end run are always better and worth more.
Going forward - geek squad when your car goes to sleep will be updating just like the iPhone.
It's not an argument - it's a simple fact. Name a car in the last two decades that did not. Factories suppliers mechanics all make mistakes - the longer they produce a car the better it gets - again it's just a fact as is the 30hp upgrade had nothing to do with the 650s. Mac replaced my entire IRIS or whatever it was - the car was perfect prior but they wanted to improve the car.
 

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Cost optimization also happens during a production run and it can go the other way (later production car “losing” in the process).
Maybe but not so sure on a Halo Special Limited Edition - in this case an LT.
Look at the Porsche 959 - how many editions did it take to beat the F40?
Keep in mind the 720GT3 is faster than the Senna GTR.
Mac placed serious effort on the model from day one to get these results.
 

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The car was a launch. Not a development car.

Hence my question?

I’m well aware of changes made along the way for issues. I’m asking what the issues were that warranted the “so called” change.
Perhaps the car wasn't what many in the ditches wanted - possible they got CH to stop by and toss out a negative review which pushed bean counters to throw dollars required in order to achieve the result the build team wanted- who knows likely won't tell but if it took CH to make it better - smart move.

Buying the last edition / track focussed is a story in of itself.
Owners who don't take the time to appreciate are missing the premise behind the brand and shouldn't be receiving an allocation - which is why so many despise factories who give the wrong guys special builds.

Personally happy to see the spirit and Mac be involved in who gets an LT and let those owners speak vs others.
 

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I wish a manufacturer would have the balls to let journalists compare a car with a street setup vs the same car but setup for the specific track to show just how much bs most lap times are.

Also in the vein of cars being changed during development, what is the veracity of the Honda engineers increasing the stiffness of the NSX 2x after Senna's feedback? Doesn't seem believable that they could have gotten it so wrong, I always thought it was some clever marketing playing into stereotypes.
Yes I am aware of Mclaren's use of shims. I am talking more about the general public and people who don't track who put way too much weight into track tests and laptimes when constructing their imaginary garage. Maybe this does not have an immediate effect on sales but the assumption that better laptimes = better driving car diffuses into the general perception of the brand when in reality it really should not hold anywhere near the importance it does today, especially considering how much times can change if variables are not controlled and whether or not they are massaged.
I don't understand why anyone cares what someone else buys with their money.
Personally love seeing track times and or owners pros driving on track. The Dodge Viper set 13 US track records and the Senna breaks them wherever it goes. There are tons of variables but cars consistently breaking track records is worth more than less. Some cars are easy while others hard to push to their limit. Raced briefly and don't have the time or make the commitment but I also wouldn't push a road car to the limit. These are just toys - imagination or reality it's meant to be fun.
 

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Chris is just trying to find an excuse to save face. He knows he got it wrong initially.

The car he drove recently, and liked, is the exact same car I drove in December 2020. McLaren changed nothing.

720 add in some Senna and produce the 765LT - not sure why he would even attempt to fight this succession.
 

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and you checked the software version, suspension setup etc before and after?
again just be happy they are finally delivering a brilliant car, instead of shitting on Chris. Of all the british journalists he is probably the one that calls it the way he sees it the most without consideration to any politics.. SF90 review for Topgear is a point in case.
I arrived early to find the stunning white pre-production car - I wanted one and was eager to get on with specifying my own car.
Ferrari "special press cars" but Mclaren would offer a car that wasn't prepared.
Mac relies on customer confidence to pre purchase - same as every factory so why set up for failure.
It's like an audit firm press release to lower stock price and comes back to re - audit and buys stock and then releases all is grand - we were wrong then but right now - odd

Mac fans and others are tired of the false narratives - CH bashed Lambo / F8 and praised SF90 - he gets exactly what he bargained for - 500+ owners down deep don't care what he says and if they did they would have missed out on the 765LT.
Now it's a cake and eat it to scenarios- we could all lighten up and enjoy.
 

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I am totally convinced that for reasons unknown, Harris had a pickle up his ass over the 765 when he initially drove it. Subsequently, the unanimously rave reviews, especially from owners, began to circulate. He then felt the need to revisit the car. His reaction took a 180 degree turn. He could hardly admit to the fact that his initial impressions were dead wrong, so in order to save face he concocted the fable that the two cars were very different in set up and alignment. Mclaren is keeping mum on the issie in order not to undermine Harris' credibility.
Clearly did not like the car but then comes back to test and spec a car same day -
720 and Senna proven - LT was a guaranteed home run with 1500+ and line around the block. CH takes a second drive and just so happened to have an allocation / spec session waiting after a test drive - whatever the truth is the results appear to meet and exceed what every customer expected.
 
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