CAR mag supertest

16600 Views 109 Replies 17 Participants Last post by zippycar, Jul 12, 2011

6th element

Discussion Starter · Jun 16, 2011

Looks like we should have some tasty stuff by Sunday. Hopefully McLaren supplied a light-spec 12C to take on the cheater 458

, although the GT2 RS could very well spoil the party.

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives...s-the-world-the-ultimate-supercar-group-test/

41 - 60 of 110 Posts

iains

· #41 · Jun 20, 2011

6th element said:
Corsa tires are an OEM option on the 12C, any customer will be able to get them. They are the market equivalent to the Michelins that CUSTOMERS get on a 458. You misunderstand: I'd be perfectly happy with Ferrari setting a time with Gene, if there wasn't already evidence that they cheat. But there is. So, it discounts everything they do. No such evidence exists yet for Mac cheating, but I am all ears.

Where is your evidence? Chris Harris on Jalopnik no doubt. Yep, that's definitive proof for sure

A very well respected (not!) repository of automotive BS where the site owner/administrator is regularly found to post information without having any facts to back them up.

I never questioned the legitimacy of the Corsa tyres on the Mclaren. You however were questioning the tyres fitted to the 458 earlier which are also customer spec'able items. Like for like spec choices by both manufacturers in that regard for the test. Why put a car out on rubber you know to be slower if the whole point of the exercise is to set the fastest time.... it's not rocket science.

997

· #42 · Jun 20, 2011

iains said:
I've looked at the data.

What no-one seems ready to accept is that both EVO and now CAR have arrived at the same conclusion. The delay I reported by Mclaren in supplying a car to Sport Auto for their group test now seems more and more likely to be true following this second unfavourable result. For whatever reason their car is not performing to the levels they said it would. That is somewhat concerning considering the first customer cars are due to be delivered shortly.

What I am pointing at here is that the Italia did not beat the GT2RS in ANY discipline measured by Sport Auto. It gets beaten in acceleration, on the brakes, in the slalom and in top speed. It is considerably heavier. It loses 2.1 seconds in hockenheim and 14(!!) seconds on the Ring.

All of a sudden it beats the GT2RS in a CAR test. WTF?!

I find it very hard to believe that LEAP is normal. It also lost a LOT of weight all of a sudden and the one tested by Sport Auto already had the light weight options fitted.

At the same time the gap between the GT2RS and the R8 is pretty consistent between the Sport Auto and the Car tests.

zippycar

· #43 · Jun 20, 2011

What I don't understand is why McLaren didn't send a car with the Corsa's on in the first place, either for the EVO or CAR tests.

Where they so confident that it would beat allcomers on standard rubber?

Secondly, how on earth did it loose out to the Lambo?

I'm a real 12C fan and soon to be owner, but must say that I am concerned at the lack of independently validated performance figures.

6th element

Discussion Starter · #44 · Jun 20, 2011

iains said:
Where is your evidence? Chris Harris on Jalopnik no doubt. Yep, that's definitive proof for sure A very well respected (not!) repository of automotive BS where the site owner/administrator is regularly found to post information without having any facts to back them up.

I never questioned the legitimacy of the Corsa tyres on the Mclaren. You however were questioning the tyres fitted to the 458 earlier which are also customer spec'able items. Like for like spec choices by both manufacturers in that regard for the test. Why put a car out on rubber you know to be slower if the whole point of the exercise is to set the fastest time.... it's not rocket science.

Not sure what is so hard to understand. The Corsa tires on the Mac are an option, but an OEM option available to all customers. Whatever tires are on the 458 press car are of unknown compound as they are known to cheat with the 430 Scud testers that "stuck to the rollers" on the dyno. There is nothing like for like about it.

Harris's rant is BS? That would be convenient for you and Ferrari, but Chilton has supported it, so is he full of it, too? You can try all you want- you'll never convince me that the 458's timesheets are good for anything, save perhaps for when I run out of toilet paper!

GT-TT

· #45 · Jun 20, 2011

Guys sorry to bulge into this but all manufacturers cheat. I am a big porsche fan but I know for a fact of a press GT2 from early on that had different software with more power and a lot more torque. I know for a fact, i tried it.
The ferrari at -100kgs only needed to add some very sticky tires and maybe adjust geometry. Heck an invisible software update could give it another 10hp or so. The results suggest that this car had tweeks to optimise performance.
As for the macca, I think they are new to this car review game but they are definitely learning

6th element

Discussion Starter · #46 · Jun 20, 2011

zippycar said:
What I don't understand is why McLaren didn't send a car with the Corsa's on in the first place, either for the EVO or CAR tests.

Where they so confident that it would beat allcomers on standard rubber?

Secondly, how on earth did it loose out to the Lambo?

I'm a real 12C fan and soon to be owner, but must say that I am concerned at the lack of independently validated performance figures.

How is the EVO lap time not independently verified? The 12C is the fastest non-cheater car to lap Bedford save for a few trackday specials.

Huayra

· #47 · Jun 20, 2011

Sportauto Lap Times Nurburgring and Hockenheim

Sportauto Lap Times Nurburgring and Hockenheim (the world's most accurate car tests)
http://www.sportauto-online.de/rundenzeiten-nuerburgring-3649995.html

Porsche 911 GT2 RS (Corsa Tires)
http://translate.google.com/transla...nd-leichtbau-schlaegt-carrera-gt-3086090.html
Nurburgring: 7.24 min
Hockenheimring: 1.08,4 min

Ferrari 458 Italia (Normal Tires)
http://translate.google.com/transla...uf-der-nordschleife-forza-italia-1913091.html
Nurburgring: 7.38 min
Hockenheimring: 1.10,5 min

All ist good

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997

· #48 · Jun 20, 2011 (Edited)

GT-TT said:
Guys sorry to bulge into this but all manufacturers cheat. I am a big porsche fan but I know for a fact of a press GT2 from early on that had different software with more power and a lot more torque. I know for a fact, i tried it.
The ferrari at -100kgs only needed to add some very sticky tires and maybe adjust geometry. Heck an invisible software update could give it another 10hp or so. The results suggest that this car had tweeks to optimise performance.
As for the macca, I think they are new to this car review game but they are definitely learning

How can the Italia have lost a lot of weight compared to the one which was tested at Sport Auto which already had the light weight options fitted??

I don't recall exactly where but in the comments on one of the magazine's sites on this debate someone said that he doesn't believe the Italia makes 570hp based on a customer car he had on his dyno

All of a sudden this Italia is faster than a GT2RS which beat the Italia in EVERY discipline Sport Auto measured.

Somehow I don't think only an extra 10hp would do it and just very sticky tyres don't explain the shedding of a LOT of weight.

IF Porsche cheats on the Power then at least it is easy for a customer to do the same thing and load some custom software....

I think you are right, this is probably a wake up call in Woking about the car review game

GT-TT

· #49 · Jun 20, 2011

thats why this ferrari was optimized or a ringer or whatever you want to call it..
-100 kgs is stratospheric difference when you are cornering or braking.

997

· #50 · Jun 21, 2011 (Edited)

GT-TT said:
thats why this ferrari was optimized or a ringer or whatever you want to call it..
-100 kgs is stratospheric difference when you are cornering or braking.

This whole weight this has been a mystery to me.

Sport Auto had a great article a while ago about engine technology.

Various engines were discussed from the Veyron to a 3 cylinder.

What stood out to me was that the new V12 of the new Lambo was what seemed to me VERY light (if I recall correctly 225 kg or so) and the Aventador still being HEAVY despite heavy use of carbon fibre.

A press release stated that the gearbox of the 12C GT3 is 80 kg (!!) lighter than the dual clutch one of the regular 12C.

The whole drivetrain of the Caparo I think I saw quoted somewhere at 130 kg.

I am assuming that drivetrain means engine+gearbox. An Aventador is about THREE times the weight of a Caparo.

Now I am not for a minute suggesting a Caparo is good for anything except track use but still I find the weight of all these cars (12C, 458 Italia, Aventador) quite HIGH.

Where is all that lard hiding and how does Ferrari manage to shed that much weight without stripping out the interior and making it obvious?

I'd REALLY like to know more about that topic but unfortunately I do not know anyone on a design team of any super car. Talking to sales and marketing people about those kind of details seems a bit futile if you ask me.

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widowmaker911

· #51 · Jun 21, 2011

6th element said:
Seems the full video is available on Vimeo: http://vimeo.com/25352861

***SPOILER: DON'T READ PAST HERE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW BEFORE WATCHING THE VID***

12C is fastest with 1:28 dead, with a caveat: They had hydraulic issues and had to return to Rockingham with their own driver (Chris Goodwin?).

that's disheartening

.........Ron Dennis promised nothing would touch it (NOT

)........gonna take my name off list and see what the GT3 'road' version does........i had hoped it would debut like the F1 did (luv'd that car).......maybe they should bring back Gordan Murray

........will probably get the Aventador

6th element

Discussion Starter · #52 · Jun 21, 2011

widowmaker911 said:
that's disheartening.........Ron Dennis promised nothing would touch it (NOT)........gonna take my name off list and see what the GT3 'road' version does........i had hoped it would debut like the F1 did (luv'd that car).......maybe they should bring back Gordan Murray........will probably get the Aventador

Good luck and so long.

The Aventador looks great.

Krzys

· #53 · Jun 21, 2011

iains said:
Where is your evidence? Chris Harris on Jalopnik no doubt. Yep, that's definitive proof for sure A very well respected (not!) repository of automotive BS where the site owner/administrator is regularly found to post information without having any facts to back them up.

I never questioned the legitimacy of the Corsa tyres on the Mclaren. You however were questioning the tyres fitted to the 458 earlier which are also customer spec'able items. Like for like spec choices by both manufacturers in that regard for the test. Why put a car out on rubber you know to be slower if the whole point of the exercise is to set the fastest time.... it's not rocket science.

Harris and Chilton here. Very strong evidence. It's not definite proof. Nothing is. Yet, it cannot be ignored as one-off rant of a frustrated loser. Couple that with well documented weight discrepancies, fantastic (as in fantasy) track performance, and the overall evidence is quite strong. Not definite, will not hold up in court, but you cannot just dismiss it like everybody does on ferrarichat. Anybody (meaning you and me) should be very careful in taking ferrari lap times on faith. I used to do it, but can't anymore.

Doubleclutch

· #54 · Jun 21, 2011

http://vimeo.com/25352861

Full Car video, pretty bad press for mclaren. Keeping my order, it's going to be very fast car, tired of Ferrari driving feel, it's not bad but I am bored with it. Turn up the boost on the 12c to 700hp. Even without mods the 12c is much quicker in straight line and that is where it matters to me.

iains

· #55 · Jun 21, 2011 (Edited)

Krzys said:
Harris and Chilton here. Very strong evidence. It's not definite proof. Nothing is. Yet, it cannot be ignored as one-off rant of a frustrated loser. Couple that with well documented weight discrepancies, fantastic (as in fantasy) track performance, and the overall evidence is quite strong. Not definite, will not hold up in court, but you cannot just dismiss it like everybody does on ferrarichat. Anybody (meaning you and me) should be very careful in taking ferrari lap times on faith. I used to do it, but can't anymore.

That's the point.... they "suspect" it only and have no concrete proof. And Chris Harris has gone on to say it's "widespread" yet this is conveniently ignored on here by many who only want to single out Ferrari. I wonder why

Of course manufacturers optimise their cars for tests and for some here to think Mclaren are innocent of this and "have a lot to learn" is simply naive beyond belief. They have recruited a wealth of talent from other car companies to this road car operation who will all have familiarity with what goes on. This practice has gone on for years. Jaguar were one of the first to make excessive claims for the E type and others simply carried on. The fact is headline grabbing performance figures will sell cars to part of the potential audience who value boasting rights above all else and are unlikely to ever realise any of the cars real potential during their ownership.

I really don't care about the lap times on any of the tests. I wouldn't buy a car based upon that info unless I was looking to do serious competition with it in which case I wouldn't be looking to buy a compromised road car. It does seem vital to a lot of potential 12C owners though that this car HAS to be faster than anything else in it's segment. Several independent tests have now shown it isn't putting clean air between it and it's arch rival and some are simply refusing to accept they may have bought into the pre launch sky high performance expectations. For those people beating Ferrari seems to be of major importance.

This is as much of a personal rivallry on the road now between Mclaren and Ferrari as it is on the F1 circuits of the world. To think Mclaren therefore wouldn't optimise their car for the test is laughable. These tests were always going to be poured over by enthusiasts and potential customers as the hype surrounding this car was so great and Mclaren have been happy to let the media build up the idea of a grudge match showdown on the road with Ferrari.

The tyre choice issue IS revealling I'd suggest. The cars had to perform these tests on the same tyres over the course of both the road and track tests. Mclaren evidently must have felt that the Corsa tyre may not do as well on the road section. Ferrari on the other hand have some magical cheat tyre if you believe others here that accounts for the improvement in it's time. I've already said that data shows the new Michelin Supersport option can shave up to 0.6 seconds a lap on the Fiorano circuit. They evidently had more faith in this tyre to deliver on both road and track. If wizards are at work here it's Michelin they are employed by

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emve

· #56 · Jun 21, 2011

997 said:
What I am pointing at here is that the Italia did not beat the GT2RS in ANY discipline measured by Sport Auto. It gets beaten in acceleration, on the brakes, in the slalom and in top speed. It is considerably heavier. It loses 2.1 seconds in hockenheim and 14(!!) seconds on the Ring.

All of a sudden it beats the GT2RS in a CAR test. WTF?!

That Sport Auto test of 458 was strange. The results were not in line with all the other tests from around the world. Autobild Sportscars with the very same car did 7:32 on full lap (20,8km) with a passenger. That means around 7:22-7:23 on Sport Auto layout without a passenger (just like Sport Auto tests). Still on Pilot Sport tires. With Pilot Super Sport or Corsas for sure under 7:20. GT2 RS official time is 7:18.

GT-TT

· #57 · Jun 21, 2011

Corsa is a lot better in all road, track, hill climb, trip to shopping mall etc conditions except standing water or snow. I know first hand, I ve been using them for 4 years.
More aggressive geometry also better in most conditions and can make 1 second difference alone. Tire wear is only reason manufacturers tone it down on factory cars. Also to make more predictable handling for the amateur driver ie more understeer.
The above together with the weight reduction is easily worth 1.5 seconds or actually more before we consider any other cheating etc.
Seems to me Mclaren shot themselves in the foot by not optimising tires and possibly geometry if needed with the hydraulic setup. They were either overconfident or as I said new to this game.
Also none here mentioned the traction control issue. With non grippy tires on a hot day this kills lap times. I had noticed this even in the teaser video and is consistent with what I remember from my test drive. I bet you all Chris had to do is to is check suspension, take traction control off and go faster with new corsas.
I assume neither tampered with the engine for a bit more HP. For Mclaren it would be super easy but I guess the measurement suggest that nothing like that happened for the mp4.
So bottomline is that all of the above are kind of expected in such a rivalry involving Ferrari. And Mclaren will now learn from what happened, you can be sure about that. What is not easily explained (and made the difference to a large extend) is the almost 110 kg difference in the 458 weight vs previous tests..

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iains

· #58 · Jun 21, 2011

Interesting discussion here http://axisofoversteer.blogspot.com/2011/06/mclaren-mp4-12c-vs-ferrari-458-ouch.html

emve

· #59 · Jun 21, 2011

GT-TT said:
What is not easily explained (and made the difference to a large extend) is the almost 110 kg difference in the 458 weight vs previous tests..

458 test weight in most previous european tests was in 1530-1540kg range. The difference actually is about 60-70kg. New carbon options probably do not fully explain it.

This applies for the DP599TV press car tested in EVO and Autoexpress. Not sure about this Ferrari Northern Europe car.

GT-TT

· #60 · Jun 21, 2011

Well just heard a version of what happened actually and it appears that the 458 probably had some (very) naughty parts from the challenge series for weight and power advantage.. Hmm, if this is true and I suspect it might be according to the data then we have usual tricks all over again..

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