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CAR mag supertest

16600 Views 109 Replies 17 Participants Last post by  zippycar
Looks like we should have some tasty stuff by Sunday. Hopefully McLaren supplied a light-spec 12C to take on the cheater 458 ;), although the GT2 RS could very well spoil the party.
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Can´t wait for MP4-12C results. I hope they did full performance test of all also, having such a nice lineup.

SLS didn´t do well. 2 secs slower than R8 V10. It seems GT2 RS did 1:29 with its cup tires.

What to expect from MP4-12C ? In the video it is shown both with superlightweight wheels (+corsa tires?) and lightweight wheels (+normal P-zero?). I would expect 1:27 with corsa tires.
Is the GT2 RS time posted there somewhere? I didn't see it.

The narrator saying "prepared to be shocked" at the end has me nervous. Either the 12C didn't win, or it won by a huge margin.
if you watch the 50 sec intro there is a inside view of the gt2 rs with a lap timer saying fastestlap 1:28.9,bugger caught myself being an anorak yet again!!!!!!!
Oh, I see it now, thanks. Hmm... could be that the RS's next lap was faster though....
Caution ***SPOILER***

Seems the full video is available on Vimeo:


12C is fastest with 1:28 dead, with a caveat: They had hydraulic issues and had to return to Rockingham with their own driver (Chris Goodwin?).
So the tuned 458 time is tossed for being a cheat. That leaves 12C faster than the monster GT2 RS by 7 tenths, which is a massive gap. Good enough for me- well done McLaren.

edit: closer to 8 tenths. Impressive indeed.
Where are you getting those times from? It was 1.30.1. It's slower than Lambo Convertible! How's that good? Don't get it
you gotta watch the vid right to the very end.
He's getting it from this ridiculous final still at the end of the film. If Ferrari had tried this trick you'd all have derided them for cheating. Mclaren had the same pretest notice to be able to provide a fully functioning test car but say their's went wrong. Funny how all the other manufacturers managed it and didn't ask to go back with their "own" test driver who's done literally thousands of test miles in the car to get a better result.

They might as well just have strapped a nitrous kit onto it and be done with it :D

CAR evidently didn't even feel comfortable adding a verbal end note to this film to explain that which speaks volumes.
You wish. The 12C is fastest at Rockingham until proven a cheat. That's a fact.
Sorry, that does not work at all. McLaren said so? We are watching independent tests to confirm promises. I am very sorry to say that, but they have failed. Failed big time. My deposit will probably not survive that. I will wait for AMS times, but it's not looking good at all.
Suit yourself. If you are re-allocating the funds, might I suggest you avoid a 458. You will never get one that can lap even close to the RS in real life. Lucky 12C buyer behind you on the waiting list. So long! :)
Sorry, I understand your frustration, but I don't trust mfr's times. Any mfr. Ferrari obviously cheat, so I ignore their times, but slower than a convertible? It's just not good at all.
Sure. It's all conjecture of some kind or another. Ferrari, however, is the only one we know of that is a confirmed cheat. There may be others, but Harris never felt the need to say so.
Well, Chris Chilton expressly said here (on the forum) that Porsche and Lambo are different.
Where is that? I never read it.
Wow, I can't believe I missed that. So, Harris's claims are decisively confirmed by Chilton. To think all this time I've been wearing my keyboard out in support of Harris and it has already been done authoritatively on this very forum.

Well, for me that settles it. I may as well take a black marker to every single road test mag I've collected over the years and just strike out the Ferrari entries.
All these results are making me reconsider the McLaren and go for a Lambo Superleggera... If the bull is faster AND packs the passion and noise, it's a tough choice. I have until July 10 to make my final decision. Thoughts, gents? (BTW, the 458 is not in the picture at all).
The Lambo would probably be my second choice, too. But can't see it as my daily driver.

Guaranteed the Lambo is not faster. However, I agree the hydraulic suspension faltering in the CAR mag test is a concern. That should not be happening at this stage of the game.
You are fooling only yourself. The car fails to perform on the test day under controlled circumstances with the same driver. The manufacturer "claims" their car suffered a fault then returns on another day on their own without independent verification and says they beat the lap time. Priceless :D
I acknowledge that the hydraulics faltering is a concern for prospective customers, however far from the first time a well-used press car has suffered a mechanical glitch.

I await any evidence from Harris, Chilton or other notable journalist that McLaren is a cheat or dishonest about lap times, just as I suspect they would reveal if Porsche or Lambo cheats. In such a case, I can assure you I will not be pleased. Until then, I can only go with what I know, which is that at least two journalists have outed Ferrari and their cheating ways. Sorry to be repetitive; it's tiring even for me. But you keep challenging it, so there you go. Ferrari cheats. Chilton says Porsche and Lambo do not. We don't know about the others, but nobody has felt the need to provide evidence for, or against.
I have a Porsche Cayman R as my daily driver right now - which I would definitely say has 75% of the fun and performance of all these beasts, for less than 1/3 of the cost. So the bull or the Mac would be my friday and weekend car. I've never once had a problem with any of my Porsches, and while I only had my LP560 before it became a track-side ornament due to an AMG, it never had any issues either.
I hear you on the Cayman R- that looks like an incredible car. In that case, I'd stick with the Mac but the Lambo would be a riot, in its own right. Good luck with the decision! :)
Oh come on, that's extremely lame. Well used press car?? This was one of THE most important tests Mclaren were ever going to face at launch. They have a wealth of experience every second weekend of the season preparing two highly technical cars to make it to the front rows of the grid. They must have gone over that car a thousand times to get it as perfect as possible before handing it over. They have purportedly wracked up tens of thousands of development miles to iron out exactly these sorts of glitches. Mclaren are anal about this type of thing and if you think Ron Dennis wouldn't have demanded the car was in A1 order then you really are in denial. He doesn't leave things to chance. The whole reputation of his car business hinges on these tests as both he and MD Antony Sheriff have repeatedly said their car HAS TO BE the best. Sadly it wasn't on the crucial day.
Sure thing. Like I said, I await any supporting evidence that McLaren was not telling the truth about the car and that, indeed, the 1:28.00 lap time is a hoax. When you find that evidence, please share it. We all know where to find it, in Ferrari's case.

With all due respect, I'm exhausted with responding to your rebuttals on this topic. We agree to disagree, then? :) Thanks for the jousting and good night.
Corsa tires are an OEM option on the 12C, any customer will be able to get them. They are the market equivalent to the Michelins that CUSTOMERS get on a 458. You misunderstand: I'd be perfectly happy with Ferrari setting a time with Gene, if there wasn't already evidence that they cheat. But there is. So, it discounts everything they do. No such evidence exists yet for Mac cheating, but I am all ears.

Yes we disagree. It did not say on the CAR film that the 1:28 time was independently verified. I'd have believed the time IF Mclaren had said "ok let us comeback and let Ben Collins take the car around the track once we've fixed it". They didn't and even added Corsa tyres which they acknowledge improves the performance significantly. That is the issue here - the revisedtime was not recorded by the same driver under the same weather/test conditions. As I said if Ferrari had done this and got Marc Gene to pound around Rockingham after CAR'steam had gone you'd be crying foul as loud as you could.

I'm somewhat bemused that you are happy to question Ferrari's integrity based upon the "allegations" (made without any supporting documentary evidence I may add) by two journalists but are more than eager to believe Mclaren would not try to mislead anyone. It also seems you are happy for Mclaren to record a faster lap time on track focused tyres yet cry foul at Ferrari saying they used trick tyres. That's a very balanced view I have to say.
Where is your evidence? Chris Harris on Jalopnik no doubt. Yep, that's definitive proof for sure :D A very well respected (not!) repository of automotive BS where the site owner/administrator is regularly found to post information without having any facts to back them up.

I never questioned the legitimacy of the Corsa tyres on the Mclaren. You however were questioning the tyres fitted to the 458 earlier which are also customer spec'able items. Like for like spec choices by both manufacturers in that regard for the test. Why put a car out on rubber you know to be slower if the whole point of the exercise is to set the fastest time.... it's not rocket science.
Not sure what is so hard to understand. The Corsa tires on the Mac are an option, but an OEM option available to all customers. Whatever tires are on the 458 press car are of unknown compound as they are known to cheat with the 430 Scud testers that "stuck to the rollers" on the dyno. There is nothing like for like about it.

Harris's rant is BS? That would be convenient for you and Ferrari, but Chilton has supported it, so is he full of it, too? You can try all you want- you'll never convince me that the 458's timesheets are good for anything, save perhaps for when I run out of toilet paper! :)
What I don't understand is why McLaren didn't send a car with the Corsa's on in the first place, either for the EVO or CAR tests.

Where they so confident that it would beat allcomers on standard rubber?

Secondly, how on earth did it loose out to the Lambo?

I'm a real 12C fan and soon to be owner, but must say that I am concerned at the lack of independently validated performance figures.
How is the EVO lap time not independently verified? The 12C is the fastest non-cheater car to lap Bedford save for a few trackday specials.
that's disheartening:(.........Ron Dennis promised nothing would touch it (NOT:mad:)........gonna take my name off list and see what the GT3 'road' version does........i had hoped it would debut like the F1 did (luv'd that car).......maybe they should bring back Gordan Murray:rolleyes:........will probably get the Aventador;)
Good luck and so long. :) The Aventador looks great.
I was referring to Chris Goodwin's time of 1:28
Agreed. Goodwin's Rockingham lap time is unverified.
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