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Would love to educate someone willing to learn.

We have a wall. In someone’s opinion it’s not working so let’s build more wall. Doing the same thing expecting a different result! You get the idea.

More wall will deter and stop some of the elderly, young, and weak that are just looking for a better life. The “riff raff” that some have called them. It will do very little to stop the real hard core bad guys that are trying to get in. The wall to them is just an obstacle that they will find a way around.

DRUGS: Most of the illegal drugs that enter our country enter through legal entry points. Drug money goes back the same way. So the wall will have little impact regarding this problem and these drugs will continue to enter our country and continue to kill thousands of Americans each year.

Americans being murdered: The mast majority of people killed/murdered in the US each year are killed by US citizens. The majority of the mass killings in this country are committed by US citizens. The wall will do nothing to stop this.

We are at a 45 year low for illegals entering this country, but now it’s a national emergency. The billions of tax payer dollars that will be used will be taken from already needed funded projects, which will have a negative impact on those communities.

The civil actions to come will cost tax payers millions of dollars. Think about the benefit all this money could have if put to other needed projects, but it’s going to be just pissed away.

What’s needed to happen, at a greatly reduced cost: Put more feet on the ground. Give them better/more technology. More judges and ways to make our justice system more effective and fluid dealing with illegals. Better state/federal laws with STIFFER penalties specific for illegals that commit crimes in our country. This will be more of a deterrent than the wall to the hard core bad guys.

BTY What happened to the Mexican government funding the wall?

Hope this helps!


Thank you for your response however you have not provided any facts or a solution that would render a wall ineffective. I thought perhaps you would reference some special technology that I never heard of. What you have provided is anecdotal and not an alternative which is what I was hoping to hear. Anyways, thanks for trying.

The walls we have DO work but I agree they are not 100%. They are only one part of the solution which would require more feet on the ground, tech and other investments. The walls if built correctly however are a great deterrent which will significantly reduce illegals freely walking into the US. We have miles of open borders and it is ridiculous to believe we can monitor them without some infrastructure. A wall would make people think twice. Drugs, human trafficking, child prostitution, etc are all part of the process. A wall will help reduce this, it will not eliminate it though. Criminals are resilient and resourceful but you have to start somewhere.

This is the United States of America, we have the right to protect our citizens, our borders and our rights. We have the right to lock our doors at night although a criminal may never walk through. No one has the right to take this away from us. If you have other ideas or solutions lets hear them until then I am all for building the tallest, longest and widest wall ideally electrified with barb wire.
 

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Discussion Starter #42
Please give me specifics, I am tired of hearing things that are not factual. I happen to own multiple companies and deal internationally but not seeing what you describe so I am curious as to what you are referring to - please no fake news though. Give me facts and specific examples.
I’m done with you. Sorry you can’t handle/see the truth. If your looking for fake news just listen to certain elected people in Washington.

Have a nice night!
 

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Simple solution - you and people who think like you can pay more AND do your share for charity like me and my right winged friends. The more we have the more we give back as opposed to asking for others to pay for shit.
Don't worry, I pay my way. What I object to is the view that people suffering needlessly isn't society's problem, but should be pushed onto those that break first.

Federal taxation exists to pay for things for the good of the country. That has to include its people that need help. Life can be tough. We cannot condemn people to a life of suffering because they've not managed to cope on their own.

Nothing is free though, if you don't understand this then there is no point in debating.
Which bit of "paid for by general taxation" implies free? However, I do need to point out that some Doctors do some work for free, precisely because they cannot leave people suffering. Even hospitals provide free care to those that cannot pay - those of us with health insurance pay for that already. It would be cheaper if preventative care were (widely) available, rather than just emergency care, with its human consequences.
 

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Discussion Starter #44
Thank you for your response however you have not provided any facts or a solution that would render a wall ineffective. I thought perhaps you would reference some special technology that I never heard of. What you have provided is anecdotal and not an alternative which is what I was hoping to hear. Anyways, thanks for trying.

The walls we have DO work but I agree they are not 100%. They are only one part of the solution which would require more feet on the ground, tech and other investments. The walls if built correctly however are a great deterrent which will significantly reduce illegals freely walking into the US. We have miles of open borders and it is ridiculous to believe we can monitor them without some infrastructure. A wall would make people think twice. Drugs, human trafficking, child prostitution, etc are all part of the process. A wall will help reduce this, it will not eliminate it though. Criminals are resilient and resourceful but you have to start somewhere.

This is the United States of America, we have the right to protect our citizens, our borders and our rights. We have the right to lock our doors at night although a criminal may never walk through. No one has the right to take this away from us. If you have other ideas or solutions lets hear them until then I am all for building the tallest, longest and widest wall ideally electrified with barb wire.
Maybe you should start building this wall in the ghettos of Chicago. The murder capital of the US. The mast majority of the murders committed by US citizens.

I’m not against the wall and protecting ourselves. I just think all that money can be better spent to improve the quality of life/safety of US citizens.
 

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Agreed. It's the negotiating tactic of a child though. Adults should be able to discuss without making such confrontational and explicit threats.
This is your perspective which is not reality. There is so much more than what's on the surface. Open your mind, stop judging and being so critical. Too may people are letting their biases and hatred get in the way of progress. Giive him a chance, its not like you have negotiated international trade.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
Don't worry, I pay my way. What I object to is the view that people suffering needlessly isn't society's problem, but should be pushed onto those that break first.

Federal taxation exists to pay for things for the good of the country. That has to include its people that need help. Life can be tough. We cannot condemn people to a life of suffering because they've not managed to cope on their own.


Which bit of "paid for by general taxation" implies free? However, I do need to point out that some Doctors do some work for free, precisely because they cannot leave people suffering. Even hospitals provide free care to those that cannot pay - those of us with health insurance pay for that already. It would be cheaper if preventative care were (widely) available, rather than just emergency care, with its human consequences.
Well stated! Look at all our vets that are homeless, dealing with PTSD and lack of proper health care and committing suicide. The list can go on, but you get my point.
 

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Thank you for your response however you have not provided any facts or a solution that would render a wall ineffective.
We should build a wall around Trump, then add a roof, and a floor.

Have you seen what happens to the fence when it reaches the oceans?
Do you know how many ways drugs and people have crossed sections where there is already a barrier? My personal favourite was a drugs catapult - so simple.
 

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This is your perspective which is not reality. There is so much more than what's on the surface. Open your mind, stop judging and being so critical. Too may people are letting their biases and hatred get in the way of progress. Giive him a chance, its not like you have negotiated international trade.
In some ways Trump has the advantage of surprise - POTUS has never acted like this. It may unblock some negotiations, but it may also scupper others. I'm not an expert, but I can recognise the tactics of a child. Just count the number of times that he says "so unfair".

My views are based on what he says and what he does, not bias or baseless hatred. He behaves like a petulant child that can't stand not being in the news. He tries to appeal to as many fanatical groups as possible, with the associated dangers.
 

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I didn't claim that. I'm advocating compassion for your fellow human beings. IMO, how a society treats its less fortunate members says a lot about it.


Agreed. It's the negotiating tactic of a child though. Adults should be able to discuss without making such confrontational and explicit threats.
Maybe you should start building this wall in the ghettos of Chicago. The murder capital of the US. The mast majority of the murders committed by US citizens.

I’m not against the wall and protecting ourselves. I just think all that money can be better spent to improve the quality of life/safety of US citizens.
Chicago and other cities are a completely different issue. They are setup to fail and held hostage by the Democratic policies. It is a complete travesty as to what goes on. Fortunately I see some progress in DC and I know we are changing things - although it can't happen fast enough.

Lets not talk about what we think but rather facts. I will agree a wall is ugly and seemingly antiquated. I certainly don't want walls around my house as they are unsightly BUT they do work to keep people out. As far as alternatives, if you want to speak tech - I can get as deep as you want. If you want to speak anti-terrorism and security I can do that too. I just happened to have a deep security background, you can call me an expert.

When I hear a wall is ineffective by people who are most likely not experts I am open to suggestions but I never get any. I only get rhetoric and opinions. I am sure people smarter than me have evaluated alternatives and for obvious reasons are advocating for a wall. Lets face it though, this is more of an anti-Trump thing than anything else. I am sure you can see that.

Back to tariffs that nobody wants but heck why should the US be on the receiving end. Our exports have such a high tax that it limits what we sell internationally. Trump whether you like his style or not is trying to balance this out. The takers keep taking, at some point the givers need to stand up for themselves.
 

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Interesting:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/12/03/what-we-know-about-illegal-immigration-from-mexico/


http://www.pewhispanic.org/2018/11/27/u-s-unauthorized-immigrant-total-dips-to-lowest-level-in-a-decade/

As much as I can enjoy a nice wall, facts say, the biggest population are those who are coming from South America, you are talking about people who either brave waterways in a 'boat' small enough to get by, or are willing to get to where they want by whatever means they can...deterrent, maybe, solution, unlikely...How long does it take to build a wall-fence anyway? They are crossing at that border, but realistically speaking how long would it take to build the wall.

How much man power to enforce its integrity along the entire border? I have no solutions, just questions. I also have no skin in this, honestly just curious as to how they intend to keep this as a legitimate thing.
Interesting times in the US.
 

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In some ways Trump has the advantage of surprise - POTUS has never acted like this. It may unblock some negotiations, but it may also scupper others. I'm not an expert, but I can recognise the tactics of a child. Just count the number of times that he says "so unfair".

My views are based on what he says and what he does, not bias or baseless hatred. He behaves like a petulant child that can't stand not being in the news. He tries to appeal to as many fanatical groups as possible, with the associated dangers.
Trump is not the most articulate speaker and he over emphasizes his points and it is downright annoying. I am with you there but I wouldn't call it childish but rather I accept it as one of his weaknesses. He is not nearly as eloquent as Mr. Teleprompter but if you can look past that there is some substance. I don't see where he is trying to appeal to fanatics but I am not trying to see that either. I am just looking at the results of his efforts. Our biases often get in the way of reality, that is surely the case with Trump. He really isn't that bad of a guy, he certainly isn't perfect but he does what he believes is the right thing for our country even though the swamp tries to stop him at every turn. I happen to have a tiny bit more insight than most so take it for what its worth.
 

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I think this is the first time I almost miss the depreciation thread...
:laugh:Well if there are tariffs you could part out you car and make a killing! Or perhaps it will mean that the prices of all McLarens will go up! Perhaps we will have finally get:

'How much over should I market my 12C for now'... I feel for the F1 owners...and P1 guys...damn those brake pads and discs are really gonna hurt :(
 

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Interesting:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/12/03/what-we-know-about-illegal-immigration-from-mexico/


http://www.pewhispanic.org/2018/11/27/u-s-unauthorized-immigrant-total-dips-to-lowest-level-in-a-decade/

As much as I can enjoy a nice wall, facts say, the biggest population are those who are coming from South America, you are talking about people who either brave waterways in a 'boat' small enough to get by, or are willing to get to where they want by whatever means they can...deterrent, maybe, solution, unlikely...How long does it take to build a wall-fence anyway? They are crossing at that border, but realistically speaking how long would it take to build the wall.

How much man power to enforce its integrity along the entire border? I have no solutions, just questions. I also have no skin in this, honestly just curious as to how they intend to keep this as a legitimate thing.
Interesting times in the US.
They come by tunnel, submarines, airplanes and anyway possible but we are most vulnerable at our open borders. The wall is phase 1, there is a lot more to be done. 200+ miles of wall over various terrains will take a while and a lot more than $5B but it gives us the infrastructure to leverage technology which we don't have today. There is a lot more to it, this is just a start. BTW, it is not just people from south of the border, you wouldn't believe the number of rugs left behind.... It is a major issue.
 

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BTW, it is not just people from south of the border, you wouldn't believe the number of rugs left behind.... It is a major issue.
enlighten me please, rugs...? as in what, some guys carry rugs all the way there, then decide its too much to take over? The capitalist in me says there is a business opportunity there...

"Left your rug, come one by to PieGuys Rug Emporium, no finer rugs this side of the border!" :D
 

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Don't worry, I pay my way. What I object to is the view that people suffering needlessly isn't society's problem, but should be pushed onto those that break first.

Federal taxation exists to pay for things for the good of the country. That has to include its people that need help. Life can be tough. We cannot condemn people to a life of suffering because they've not managed to cope on their own.
Your assumption is that our tax dollars are going to help people in need when in reality that is not the case. I am all about helping people but would prefer to do it through charity where I can see my money make a direct difference. I certainly do not trust the politicians who think they know better allocating where my money goes. Fundamental difference between left and right.


Which bit of "paid for by general taxation" implies free? However, I do need to point out that some Doctors do some work for free, precisely because they cannot leave people suffering. Even hospitals provide free care to those that cannot pay - those of us with health insurance pay for that already. It would be cheaper if preventative care were (widely) available, rather than just emergency care, with its human consequences.
It would be great to wave a magic wand and take care of everyone but it is not reality today. Maybe someday we can find a reasonable solution. The problem is where does it end. Someone decides that they don't want to work vs. someone who can't? Who manages this? It is a big issue for sure. Paying more tax won't fix it, that money will disappear in the ether.
 

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enlighten me please, rugs...? as in what, some guys carry rugs all the way there, then decide its too much to take over? The capitalist in me says there is a business opportunity there...

"Left your rug, come one by to PieGuys Rug Emporium, no finer rugs this side of the border!" :D
Rugs as in for prayer.
 
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