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There is no deception. I don't buy a 458 because it is faster than other cars around the track, I buy it because its mega quick and feels good to drive. Again, pretty sure no one feels they got sold a bill of goods when they put the pedal down in their 458.

Blah blah blah. Fact is ferrari has delivered 1000's of 458, and yes 4 of them had a fire, and yes of course some have issues, just like any other car. But they do not have systematic defects. They have doors that work in the rain. And they have functioning radios and satnavs. And they came on time. Those fire clients got new cars and last I checked there have been no more fires.

No one at ferrari promised a flawless car. Do you recall anyone doing that? Because I seem to recall article after article quoting ron dennis about how the car was the ferrari killer and would raise the game on quality blah blah blah. Again, quite simply: mclaren over promised and under delivered. On top of this, they tried to spin putting out a car that is not ready as "F1-style adaptation" after the press overwhelmingly had a dull reaction to the launch and they had to go back and tweak it out, which tweaking is clearly still ongoing. This might work for a software company putting apps in the AppStore, but doesn't quite work when you are shelling out 250k for a piece of hardware.

Are you denying the simple fact that the car is not ready for prime time and that mclaren was phenomenally arrogant with their promises? Because even though you may in your own mind continue to do so, the press and the rest of the non-fanboy owners which you can find eloquently describing their early ownership experience on other sites have already accepted this reality.

I think you protest a little to much. I don't think 6E is saying the 458 is a piece of crap, but just its not the be all and end all of cars. Personally i prefer the 430 Scuderia to the 458, but if i could only have one car it would be a 360 CS. McLaren might have over promised on the delivery dates of the 12C but not the performance. A Japanese earthquake (electronics) and English weather (MPC building) have delayed things for sure but i think that was Gods work not Ron's fault (maybe Motezemolo had the pope put in a word or two) . Mclaren have done something very different, they could have done what other manufacturers have done and just picked stuff of the shelf at Bosch, brembo, seimans, Getrag, borgwarner,xtrac etc etc etc, but no just like Mercedes, they came up with their own idea's, own engineering and then had these specialist company's assist in the manufacturing process. No other "boutique" car company does that.

Don't even get me started on all the factory "service campaigns" that are out there for the 458 for hecks sake....does not make it a bad car, just one that is being tested by the owners not the factory......430 exhausts are still being replaced under "warranty" for the love of god...

Sorry enough of my rant.... I just get very tired all the "blinded" experts on the Internet
 

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A Japanese earthquake (electronics) and English weather (MPC building) have delayed things for sure but i think that was Gods work not Ron's fault (maybe Motezemolo had the pope put in a word or two)
This is the spirit with which I posted this link and amazed how it degenerated.

Thanks Krzys, Senna and others for getting in back on track, (but don't mention the race track!!).
 

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I think you protest a little to much. I don't think 6E is saying the 458 is a piece of crap, but just its not the be all and end all of cars.
Exactly. If you are a LEXUS owner and you want to come on here and comment on McLaren's hiccups, maybe you'll get some leeway. But like I told Calitalia, if you're going to try to convince anybody that Ferrari is the paragon of perfection, you're going to get laughed off of here every time.

I guess these guys that bailed on their deposits feel the need to come here and justify their decision. I can't understand why - the last time I took myself off the waiting list for a car, I didn't then find a forum and troll for arguments.

At least the guy with a vendetta against McLaren for announcing the 12C project on the same day the 458 was launched has chilled out.
 

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This is the spirit with which I posted this link and amazed how it degenerated.

Thanks Krzys, Senna and others for getting in back on track, (but don't mention the race track!!).
Well what's left to say about any comparison with 458 FNE or any Ferrari press car? All this shows, again, is that the 12C is faster than just about everything out there, including a Challenge-spec 458 with questionable tires and horsepower. Big deal. It adds to the body of evidence, including andy's data, but the circus continues.
 

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At least the guy with a vendetta against McLaren for announcing the 12C project on the same day the 458 was launched has chilled out.
Slight correction. The Mclaren trolls stopped frequenting the 458 section on Fchat so we returned the courtesy ;) They are popping back up again there again though and doing exactly what you want to stop happening on this forum. Those individuals were not hounded away from Fchat in the zealous manner in which you wish to rid this site of any opposing opinions however.

I didn't have a vendetta as you somewhat over dramatically suggest. I merely expressed my personal view that Mclaren's stunt to announce their car on the same day as the 458 was somewhat tedious and did not befit the high standards Ron Dennis claimed to be setting out to achieve. He threw down the gauntlett with that press conference and if you go back and review his words and compare them to the experiences of early adopters in the UK (the ones who do not use this forum but have posted their experiences on sites like Pistonheads) the reality has fallen short of those lofty claims in more than one area.

Having had an early 458 I know from experience how frustrating it can be to have inaccurate hearsay and nonsense posted on forums about a new model. The level of nonsense that was spouted over the fire issue was ludicrous and still persists to this day with people like yourself happy to bring it up at any opportunity yet who have no personal experience of the facts and blithely ignore the extremely small number of cars affected and the speed with which the manufacturer resolved the issue. Get ready to enjoy that experience with the 12C for several years to come as the memories of all the electrical and software issues that have beset this car will be blown out of proportion whenever the model pops up in a forum discussion by their own resident "6th Element" experts ;)

I can fully appreciate AndyC's desire to chime in on these threads on other forums as he has personal experience he wants to offer to counter misinformation. The damage, unfortunately, is likely already done to resale values a few years down the line on these early cars IMHO as used buyers of these cars tend to refer to forums for info before making a purchase. Everyone will say "avoid the 2011 cars" just as happened with the early Gallardos where the worn clutch issues amongst other teething troubles are the root of their much lower resale value than later model year cars. Mud sticks in spite of recall fixes, software updates etc.

There is no doubt that the basic car Mclaren have come up with is extremely good and delivers serious performance. It is not however leaps and bounds ahead of the pack and the many faults it has been delivered with will be unacceptable to the vast majority of buyers who expect their car to work properly. Whilst there may be a number of vocal supporters on here willing to be beta testers just to get in a car earlier and who seem to enjoy working through the fixes with their dealer, most of your compatriots on the waiting list will not I'd strongly suggest. Many of them may not even be aware of the issues as they probably do not frequent car forums but if the car arrives on US shores with the string of faults UK buyers have experienced then Lemon lawyers will be rubbing their hands in glee. The Woking staff reading this forum will be accutely aware of that.

I guess these guys that bailed on their deposits feel the need to come here and justify their decision. I can't understand why - the last time I took myself off the waiting list for a car, I didn't then find a forum and troll for arguments.
A bit of hypocracy there I suggest as you have evidently trawled through Fchat looking for any evidence of issues with 458s to compile your fault list to deflect debate away from the myriad of teething troubles the 12C is suffering from . That is just as sad to be honest :rolleyes: You seem to feel some sort of need to continually put down the established competition which says more about your desire to justify your purchase and reassure yourself you've bought the best car out there. Just be happy with your choice and do not denigrate others for theirs. We all like different things and believe it or not it is possible for other people to be as enthusiastic about Ferrari as you are with Mclaren. There is room in the world for both brands to survive alongside each other. You seem to have an almost manic dislike of Ferrari so why not enlighten us all if you have had a bad personal experience with them?? That would be far more constructive and worth reading about rather than your usual 458 bashing.

On the subject of the 458 ask Bruce on this forum, who I'm genuinely glad to see is very happy with his Mcl, if he suffered any of the faults you insinuate potentially affect every 458 on the example he owned. I certainly haven't nor have I had reason to have any unscheduled maintenance visits to the dealer. Nor have any of the other owners I know personally. Out of the many 458s delivered to customers world wide there are a single digit number of owners who have posted issues with their cars over on Fchat. Compare that with the number of issues affecting the 12C in almost every customers hands before you try to suggest the Ferrari is a lemon ;) You may also be wise to wait until you have your own car before being so sure about the quality of the product and the back up behind it. Nothing beats first hand experience.

Feel free to flame away as normal as I'm not really bothered by your extreme opinions nor am I trying to score points. There will always be contrary views... it's called discussion and debate.
 

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For your info

previous laptimes of Anglesey on dry laps,not damp like above
gumpert 59.4
gt3rs 59.7
zr1 59.9
and 458 101.6 DRY TRACK
so what do we deduce from this now 458 TNE did 59.2 on a damp track,breaking the track record,when it was 14th last time out 2.4 seconds slower on a dry track
i think im going to swap onto MPSS, as they must be at least 3 seconds a lap quicker on a dry track:rolleyes:

sorry 59.3 for the 12c on a damp track,must be a ringer then
The original lap time for the 458 was 60,1s (they got it wrong in the 2010 video) - http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/performance_car/258115/ferrari_458_italia.html - see facts and figures.

0,9s improvement is not impossible with new Super Sport tires. The track doesn´t look that bad. We don´t even know when they did timed laps.

458 aside, MP4-12C has been underperforming in basically all the tests, compared with the huge claims by McLaren. Even here, only a couple of tenths quicker than GT2 and GT3 RS. Definitely not something ground-braking.
 

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The original lap time for the 458 was 60,1s (they got it wrong in the 2010 video) - http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/performance_car/258115/ferrari_458_italia.html - see facts and figures.

0,9s improvement is not impossible with new Super Sport tires. The track doesn´t look that bad. We don´t even know when they did timed laps.

458 aside, MP4-12C has been underperforming in basically all the tests, compared with the huge claims by McLaren. Even here, only a couple of tenths quicker than GT2 and GT3 RS. Definitely not something ground-braking.
Dont understand your logic,its a fully loaded luxury car thats competing with the likes of a £450k gumpert and beating it,this is were Ron said it would be,its not a track focused car like the 12c-gt3 will be,and it never started mid-way down a list ,then jump to the top like a 458 has,its straight out of the box
 

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The level of nonsense that was spouted over the fire issue was ludicrous and still persists to this day with people like yourself happy to bring it up at any opportunity yet who have no personal experience of the facts and blithely ignore the extremely small number of cars affected and the speed with which the manufacturer resolved the issue.
You'll find it only comes up when Calitalia, yourself and 10000 rpm troll back here to comment on your opinion that McLaren has failed because of some early electrical glitches. That being said, you have to admit, it's a pretty massive stumble to have entire cars burning to a pile of rubble. You can't just wish that episode away at the convenience of your argument (okay if you say it isn't a vendetta then fine). Some of those fire car victims are lucky they were not seriously burned or even killed.

As for the 12C not being leaps and bounds ahead of the pack, I beg to differ.
 

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The original lap time for the 458 was 60,1s (they got it wrong in the 2010 video) - http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/performance_car/258115/ferrari_458_italia.html - see facts and figures.

0,9s improvement is not impossible with new Super Sport tires. The track doesn´t look that bad. We don´t even know when they did timed laps.

458 aside, MP4-12C has been underperforming in basically all the tests, compared with the huge claims by McLaren. Even here, only a couple of tenths quicker than GT2 and GT3 RS. Definitely not something ground-braking.
No, the improvement is not impossible. Constant significant improvements in every single tests with the new press car ranging between 1-3 secs, on the other hand, are pretty much impossible.

Sure, conditions, driver and this and that can affect lap times. BUT, if the direction of all those variables is always one way, there is no doubt what it is.

Either way, I proposed a way to resolve the issue on fchat.:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=140881600&postcount=26

It seems that even on fchat nobody really believes ferrari lap times.
 

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Can anybody bring some refocus onto what the real customer car performance difference is - say on the Top Gear track?

It's becoming very tedious with all the claims about apples and oranges which very few of us can drive at the limit anyway! And if we suspect Ferrari move the goalposts then that's, well.....kinda understood and we should request the Press solve that one,,,,,,,ha ha ha

I guess we don't know if the TOP Gear 458 was a ringer or the MP12.....God forbid and go to bed without your supper!
 

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Can anybody bring some refocus onto what the real customer car performance difference is - say on the Top Gear track?

It's becoming very tedious with all the claims about apples and oranges which very few of us can drive at the limit anyway! And if we suspect Ferrari move the goalposts then that's, well.....kinda understood and we should request the Press solve that one,,,,,,,ha ha ha

I guess we don't know if the TOP Gear 458 was a ringer or the MP12.....God forbid and go to bed without your supper!
The problem with customer car performance is that there are many customers, but there is only one limit.
 

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you have evidently trawled through Fchat looking for any evidence of issues with 458s to compile your fault list
p.s. No trawling necessary. Go to 458 section, click search "Lemon" and you are well on your way. Like I said, only takes five minutes. But I don't want to burst your bubble - yes, the McLaren is the only car to have some defects at launch. :rolleyes:
 

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You seem to have an almost manic dislike of Ferrari so why not enlighten us all if you have had a bad personal experience with them??
If you haven't been enlightened, then you haven't been paying attention. I'm a customer of many automotive marques, but above all, an enthusiast of cars in general. I also happen to like fair competition and integrity. Ferrari was outed and despite your efforts to wash that away, it's funny how that cat won't go back in the bag.

You don't feel cheated by Ferrari's practices. As an enthusiast, I do. Different strokes.
 

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The problem with customer car performance is that there are many customers, but there is only one limit.

You have lost me there.

Your not a Ferrari driver are you? Trying to perpetuate the myth? :)

Now explain yourself or go stand in the corner!
 

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No, the improvement is not impossible. Constant significant improvements in every single tests with the new press car ranging between 1-3 secs, on the other hand, are pretty much impossible.

Sure, conditions, driver and this and that can affect lap times. BUT, if the direction of all those variables is always one way, there is no doubt what it is.

Either way, I proposed a way to resolve the issue on fchat.:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=140881600&postcount=26

It seems that even on fchat nobody really believes ferrari lap times.
Thank you for cutting to the chase.
 

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Those individuals were not hounded away from Fchat in the zealous manner in which you wish to rid this site of any opposing opinions however.
You threw so many allegations at me, it's going to take all week to address them.

Wrong here again, however. If you feel hounded away, then it is you that is threatened by a contrary opinion. We've all seen the same data and information. I have my interpretation and you have yours.

As I said before, I actually look forward to you guys coming back here, now. Just more opportunity to expose the truth. That is good for everybody involved in the automotive industry, even (and especially) Ferrari customers.

So please, carry on.
 

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Feel free to flame away as normal as I'm not really bothered by your extreme opinions nor am I trying to score points. There will always be contrary views... it's called discussion and debate.
I couldn't agree more. Public debate is essential and without it, it is invariably the public that gets screwed. Ask any former Enron shareholder. Ferrari's transgressions are less severe, but in my opinion the spirit behind them is the same.

No need for a flame war. Please stick around and continue to share your views, as a single essay post from you every 6 months doesn't really qualify as discussion and debate.
 

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You seem to feel some sort of need to continually put down the established competition which says more about your desire to justify your purchase and reassure yourself you've bought the best car out there.
Oh, I almost forgot about that one. But you have it wrong, yet again. No need for me to justify anything at all. To date, I have placed only one refundable deposit with my dealer. I could have backed out at any time, with impunity.

Furthermore, there are already many practically brand new 458s for sale at lower prices than my 12C, should I not want to wait.

And I don't need to reassure myself that I've bought the best car out there (even though I haven't even bought it yet). I just don't want to be lied to. As I've said before, if and when McLaren is ever exposed as convincingly as Ferrari was by Chris Harris, for example, I will definitely be calling Woking and demanding answers.
 
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