[zippycar]

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/videos/videoreviews/273787/ferrari_vs_mclaren.html

Usual "trick" 458, but at least McLaren provided a car with superlight wheels and carbon brakes.

Questionable driving by the reviewer though.

He doesn't appear to be pressing the 12C anywhere near as much as the 458, but then, some of that is down to the superb dynamics of the 12C

 

[Laurent T]

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/videos/videoreviews/273787/ferrari_vs_mclaren.html

Usual "trick" 458, but at least McLaren provided a car with superlight wheels and carbon brakes.

Questionable driving by the reviewer though.

He doesn't appear to be pressing the 12C anywhere near as much as the 458, but then, some of that is down to the superb dynamics of the 12C

Thanks for the link. That's a close battle this time, one tenth doesn't mean much.

 

[Krzys]

As always, Italia's times are without meaning, but the comments on the Macca are very interesting. Especially, the precise front end and total absence of understeer. I kinda second those comments but a blast through the backroads is very different from an all-out track attack. Chassis shortcomings really show up at the limit and you cannot see it in those cars at (semi-) legal speeds. Very encouraging.

 

[10000rpm]

As always, Italia's times are without meaning, but the comments on the Macca are very interesting. Especially, the precise front end and total absence of understeer. I kinda second those comments but a blast through the backroads is very different from an all-out track attack. Chassis shortcomings really show up at the limit and you cannot see it in those cars at (semi-) legal speeds. Very encouraging.

Correction: they only have meaning when the 458 is slower.

 

[andy c]

Correction: they only have meaning when the 458 is slower.

Always interested in your comments 10000rpm,i myself have always wanted a Mclaren and feel fortunate to be in this postition,and as you put it you had a deposit on a 12c and BAILED OUT,is that because you wanted the next great car???,but were a little worried it wouldnt be quite 100% so you BAILED OUT,and if it had been everything you wanted would you now, being the owner of a 12c ,be all over the Ferrari forums telling them what was wrong with the 458 that youd BAILED OUT FROM.
I think you need to set up a love in with Calitalia,i hope you will both be very happy

 

[andy c]

For your info

previous laptimes of Anglesey on dry laps,not damp like above
gumpert 59.4
gt3rs 59.7
zr1 59.9
and 458 101.6 DRY TRACK
so what do we deduce from this now 458 TNE did 59.2 on a damp track,breaking the track record,when it was 14th last time out 2.4 seconds slower on a dry track
i think im going to swap onto MPSS, as they must be at least 3 seconds a lap quicker on a dry track

sorry 59.3 for the 12c on a damp track,must be a ringer then

 

[Senna]

Pretty meaningless test. I suspect those times are the limit of the driver not the cars or the track. If he brakes and accelerates at the same point, turns in and takes the same bad lines the times are going to be similar right ? I was curious why the tester has to keep looking at the instruments to know when to shift ! I would think he would be better served looking as far down the track as possible to find his lines and BP's. Another reason that while i read and watch car tests, they are virtually meaningless. Top Gears "stig" test i think have more relevance.He is a pro driver, he knows the track, and is prepared to put his balls on the dash in search of the ultimate time. Get a couple of retired F1 drivers in the cars and lets see what they can really do.

 

[Krzys]

Correction: they only have meaning when the 458 is slower.

No, they have meaning when Ferrari does not know it will end up being compared (like Top Gear times or Hockenheim). Otherwise, Ferrari will be well "prepared".

 

[roundincircles]

No, they have meaning when Ferrari does not know it will end up being compared (like Top Gear times or Hockenheim). Otherwise, Ferrari will be well "prepared".

Well articulated. That is the the issue. Well said.

 

[Senna]

No, they have meaning when Ferrari does not know it will end up being compared (like Top Gear times or Hockenheim). Otherwise, Ferrari will be well "prepared".

Well said

 

[6th element]

No, they have meaning when Ferrari does not know it will end up being compared (like Top Gear times or Hockenheim). Otherwise, Ferrari will be well "prepared".

Even then you are giving them too much credit. If they have been meddling for years as the journos say, then any car provided by Maranello has likely been off side. i.e. could a customer 458 even do 1:19 at Dunsfold, like the first car they sent? I seriously doubt it. They would have sent a trick car back then for that taping, too. I hope they continue to send 458 FNE out to tests. Every time they do, more people see the discrepancies with existing data and call BS. They think they can outsmart the public forever, but the consequences of corrupt behaviour will become more and more dire as long as they continue. Nothing comes for free.

 

[10000rpm]

Even then you are giving them too much credit. If they have been meddling for years as the journos say, then any car provided by Maranello has likely been off side. i.e. could a customer 458 even do 1:19 at Dunsfold, like the first car they sent? I seriously doubt it. They would have sent a trick car back then for that taping, too. I hope they continue to send 458 FNE out to tests. Every time they do, more people see the discrepancies with existing data and call BS. They think they can outsmart the public forever, but the consequences of corrupt behaviour will become more and more dire as long as they continue. Nothing comes for free.

Really, who cares?

They deliver their cars on time, as promised, and with a functioning radio. Last I checked 458 buyers are more than satisfied with their purchases and they get everything they are expecting. It appears the same cannot be said about 12C buyers aside from the couple diehard fanboys on this forum which must be Mclaren shareholders. I would be more worried about whether my car can go 10 miles on the streets of the real world without 18 different electrical gremlins and failures popping up a-la 1980 range rover rather than whether the car turns 1s faster driven by a pro driver on track.

Bottom line: Mclaren promised the world with the launch of this car and FAILED. You get one chance to make a first impression. Ferrari continues to deliver the goods over and over.

 

[Senna]

Really, who cares?

They deliver their cars on time, as promised, and with a functioning radio. .

And a free fire extinguisher !!

 

[6th element]

Really, who cares?

They deliver their cars on time, as promised, and with a functioning radio. Last I checked 458 buyers are more than satisfied with their purchases and they get everything they are expecting. It appears the same cannot be said about 12C buyers aside from the couple diehard fanboys on this forum which must be Mclaren shareholders. I would be more worried about whether my car can go 10 miles on the streets of the real world without 18 different electrical gremlins and failures popping up a-la 1980 range rover rather than whether the car turns 1s faster driven by a pro driver on track.

Bottom line: Mclaren promised the world with the launch of this car and FAILED. You get one chance to make a first impression. Ferrari continues to deliver the goods over and over.

Haha, well at least your posts are good for comic relief. One chance to make a first impression, eh? How's this for a first impression:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFqfk0VHD8Y

Oh yeah, I forgot that most Ferrari fanboys, as you put it, conveniently don't remember any of those "goods being delivered, over and over", as you succinctly put it. I bet that guy is glad his radio is functioning.

Here are more goods, as delivered by your beloved Italians, with the links for your own perusal. You'll see that I don't have to label the 458 as a FAILURE. Enough disappointed 458 owners took care of that on ferrarichat already after taking delivery of their obviously flawless and emotionally perfect stallion.

1. Front lifter failure
2. Bluetooth doesn't work
3. Brake calipers leak
4. Premature wearing of ceramic brake pads
5. Windshield washer fluid bubbles out onto car
6. Door seal came off
7. Transmission failure within 250 miles
8. Wiper fluid doesn't work
9. Side marker lights filled with water
10. Transmission light came on and off intermittently
11. Steering failure within first 400 km
12. Engine breather pipe recalled
13. Air conditioner leaks & blows hot air
14. Speaker problem
15. ECU requires remap

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=313860&highlight=recall
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=328223&highlight=Lemon
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=330121&highlight=Lemon
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=303408
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=304757
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=327488&highlight=recall
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322655&highlight=recall
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320152&highlight=recall

And who cares about Ferrari's deceptions? I do and I doubt that I am alone. Maybe you assume that I only care because I'm a McLaren customer. If so, you have the cause and effect relationship backwards. One of the reasons that I am a McLaren customer is because I'm tired of Ferrari's ways.

Still not sure what your motivations are to be here - but let's see what else you've got. You should be thanked, really, as every time you come back to this forum trolling for an argument, you provide the opportunity for more people to learn about the real truth of these matters.

 

[6th element]

And a free fire extinguisher !!

I heard now they are just going to have the Halon go off every time the engine revs past 6000 RPM.

 

[6th element]

Last I checked 458 buyers are more than satisfied with their purchases and they get everything they are expecting.

Great that you checked with them. Last I checked, this guy got a little more than everything he was expecting (photo courtesy of BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/11071047).

Actually, I never checked, but I'm pretty sure he's more than satisfied.

How fun. Shall we continue?

 

[Senna]

I heard now they are just going to have the Halon go off every time the engine revs past 6000 RPM.

LOL

We shouldn't pick on the 458....Ferrari's have been having BBQ's since before the 308. Look how many video's on youtube of 355,360,430's burning to the ground there are. I don't mind that people make a mistake, but own up to it !
Don't blame glue for 458's catching fire, when you are re-routing a fuel tank vent hose by the exhaust ! just tell everyone "hey we put this in the wrong place, we are sending a tow truck for your car and we will fix it for free" job done, end of conversation ! Don't get me wrong, i LOVE Ferrari's, Ive been driving them and paying my bills with them for 25 years, so have no axe to grind, i just know them for what the really are. BTW i have seen, driven and worked on Ferrari press cars, and i will tell you without hesitation they are different, but don't hold that against Ferrari, the Japanese are even worse about it, just ask anyone who tests Honda motorcycles !!

 

[Senna]

How fun. Shall we continue?

Please do

 

[10000rpm]

Haha, well at least your posts are good for comic relief. One chance to make a first impression, eh? How's this for a first impression:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFqfk0VHD8Y

Oh yeah, I forgot that most Ferrari fanboys, as you put it, conveniently don't remember any of those "goods being delivered, over and over", as you succinctly put it. I bet that guy is glad his radio is functioning.

Here are more goods, as delivered by your beloved Italians, with the links for your own perusal. You'll see that I don't have to label the 458 as a FAILURE. Enough disappointed 458 owners took care of that on ferrarichat already after taking delivery of their obviously flawless and emotionally perfect stallion.

1. Front lifter failure
2. Bluetooth doesn't work
3. Brake calipers leak
4. Premature wearing of ceramic brake pads
5. Windshield washer fluid bubbles out onto car
6. Door seal came off
7. Transmission failure within 250 miles
8. Wiper fluid doesn't work
9. Side marker lights filled with water
10. Transmission light came on and off intermittently
11. Steering failure within first 400 km
12. Engine breather pipe recalled
13. Air conditioner leaks & blows hot air
14. Speaker problem
15. ECU requires remap

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=313860&highlight=recall
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=328223&highlight=Lemon
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=330121&highlight=Lemon
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=303408
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=304757
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=327488&highlight=recall
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322655&highlight=recall
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320152&highlight=recall

And who cares about Ferrari's deceptions? I do and I doubt that I am alone. Maybe you assume that I only care because I'm a McLaren customer. If so, you have the cause and effect relationship backwards. One of the reasons that I am a McLaren customer is because I'm tired of Ferrari's ways.

Still not sure what your motivations are to be here - but let's see what else you've got. You should be thanked, really, as every time you come back to this forum trolling for an argument, you provide the opportunity for more people to learn about the real truth of these matters.

There is no deception. I don't buy a 458 because it is faster than other cars around the track, I buy it because its mega quick and feels good to drive. Again, pretty sure no one feels they got sold a bill of goods when they put the pedal down in their 458.

Blah blah blah. Fact is ferrari has delivered 1000's of 458, and yes 4 of them had a fire, and yes of course some have issues, just like any other car. But they do not have systematic defects. They have doors that work in the rain. And they have functioning radios and satnavs. And they came on time. Those fire clients got new cars and last I checked there have been no more fires.

No one at ferrari promised a flawless car. Do you recall anyone doing that? Because I seem to recall article after article quoting ron dennis about how the car was the ferrari killer and would raise the game on quality blah blah blah. Again, quite simply: mclaren over promised and under delivered. On top of this, they tried to spin putting out a car that is not ready as "F1-style adaptation" after the press overwhelmingly had a dull reaction to the launch and they had to go back and tweak it out, which tweaking is clearly still ongoing. This might work for a software company putting apps in the AppStore, but doesn't quite work when you are shelling out 250k for a piece of hardware.

Are you denying the simple fact that the car is not ready for prime time and that mclaren was phenomenally arrogant with their promises? Because even though you may in your own mind continue to do so, the press and the rest of the non-fanboy owners which you can find eloquently describing their early ownership experience on other sites have already accepted this reality.

 

[Krzys]

This is degenerating into pointless name-calling. The point is not that Italia is not a great car. It is. It offers some compromises that I believe are better resolved by McLaren, but for majority of casual users Italia will deliver the right thrills. The problem is that Ferrari in the interest of massaging Ferrari owners' egos or something, cheats left and right. As Monkey pointed out, there is no need for them to really do it. The cars are plenty good. Just not as good as they want to make them out to be.

McLaren has its problems and I hope they resolve them quickly. I don't quote follow both sides of this friendly dispute rooting for the other car to fail. I want them to both succeed and push each other. It should be to our (consumers) benefit.