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Just a thought. Jon olsson had a rebellion made which resembled an lmp1 car for gumball 3000. What is the possibility of taking Aston's lmp1 car from a few years ago develope it to modern standards and use the new engines from Mercedes as a power unit. Turn up the boost and make the interior something that resembles an Aston. They wouldn't have to have any power restrictions that the FIA have in place. That is the only possible way they could get near f1 pace with a road car imo
 
I kind of doubt they will go the fan car route though...Its obviously a car for the wealthy but can you imagine the R&D and maintenance on something like that?
A big issue with the fan cars that raced (Chaparral 2J, Brabham BT 46B) was debris sitting on the track surface that got sucked up and shot out the back at following cars. Imagine that on public roads! :eek:
 
Just a thought. Jon olsson had a radical which resembled an lmp1 car for gumball 3000. What is the possibility of taking Aston's lmp1 car from a few years ago develope it to modern standards and use the new engines from Mercedes as a power unit. Turn up the boost and make the interior something that resembles an Aston. They wouldn't have to have any power restrictions that the FIA have in place. That is the only possible way they could get near f1 pace with a road car imo
Interesting idea, but I think the point of this exercise is that the car will be an all-new, unique and futuristic design from the famous drawing board of Adrian Newey.
 
Interesting idea, but I think the point of this exercise is that the car will be an all-new, unique and futuristic design from the famous drawing board of Adrian Newey.
Maybe they could design a futuristic body for an lmp1 car like you see renders for them. I can't really think of a way they could match the pace of an f1 car never mind exceed it. Aston Martin did plan to join f1 in collaboration with prodrive a fair few years ago. As you said I don't think this would be the point of the exercise.
 
What is the possibility of taking Aston's lmp1 car from a few years ago develope it to modern standards and use the new engines from Mercedes as a power unit. Turn up the boost and make the interior something that resembles an Aston. They wouldn't have to have any power restrictions that the FIA have in place. That is the only possible way they could get near f1 pace with a road car imo
But as new britain mentioned earlier, what really would be the point of taking a race/track car outside of any existing regulations and just tricking the car up somehow to get road registered just to claim some speed advantage as it would be an utterly crap road car? No one i ever heard has spoken of say the dauer 962 being anything but terrible on the road although it was likely by far the 'fastest' road car for a hell of a long time.
 
But as new britain mentioned earlier, what really would be the point of taking a race/track car outside of any existing regulations and just tricking the car up somehow to get road registered just to claim some speed advantage as it would be an utterly crap road car? No one i ever heard has spoken of say the dauer 962 being anything but terrible on the road although it was likely by far the 'fastest' road car for a hell of a long time.
I was only offering a way to which the remarks could be achieved and not what they should be doing. There is no way they could get near an f1 car any other way. All the sound proofing adds a lot of weight to the car and a bespoke interior But again it's not practical.
 
Rather, my point was that, by exploiting those areas for which the technology is not artificially limited by regulatory fiat, it should be "no big deal" for a qualified engineering team to come up with a faster racing car than the current best of either F1 or LMP1. The question is whether such a car could also be a reasonably practicable, decent road car in the sense that the LaF, 918, P1, Huayra and K'egg are, and the Radical is not.
Point taken. However, using the same logic I don't think the LaF, 918, P1 have really moved the game forward, either. (with the exception of the P1 being very progressive in terms of exterior design - and the Ford GT further yet again). After all electric drive has been around for almost 200 years already. And due to their weight, the hypercars are really straight line monsters, as opposed to apex crushers.

Maybe Newey would find more inspiration from Koenigsegg, in terms of production techniques and so on. Either way, unless he literally invents a new form of propulsion or otherwise leverages an undiscovered aspect of physics, I don't know how he or anybody else could satisfy your criteria for big deal.

Personally, I think the biggest challenge would be ride height, as there is still a massive difference between a low street car and an aero-dependent racecar. Even with active ride height, the suspension geometry would change dramatically between circuit and road height. In which case. retractable splitters and side skirts may actually be an interesting idea, although I know nothing about the practical effectiveness.
 
Point taken. However, using the same logic I don't think the LaF, 918, P1 have really moved the game forward, either. (with the exception of the P1 being very progressive in terms of exterior design - and the Ford GT further yet again). After all electric drive has been around for almost 200 years already. And due to their weight, the hypercars are really straight line monsters, as opposed to apex crushers.

Maybe Newey would find more inspiration from Koenigsegg, in terms of production techniques and so on. Either way, unless he literally invents a new form of propulsion or otherwise leverages an undiscovered aspect of physics, I don't know how he or anybody else could satisfy your criteria for big deal.

Personally, I think the biggest challenge would be ride height, as there is still a massive difference between a low street car and an aero-dependent racecar. Even with active ride height, the suspension geometry would change dramatically between circuit and road height. In which case. retractable splitters and side skirts may actually be an interesting idea, although I know nothing about the practical effectiveness.
Yes, I agree.

I'm not sure how many road cars have truly moved the game forward. I am trying to think of one but I am struggling. Of course some cars (in the post-war era) have been "more different" from the rest (such as the 901/911, Mustang, Superbird, 959, F1, Elise, Insight), but even they were evolutionary or adaptive. As you say, petrolheads await the application of a hitherto-undiscovered law of physics.

It seems more likely that Newey's AM will perforce be evolutionary, although it will be promoted with massive hyperbole - a bit like the Veyron which, when you cut through the crap, is essentially an Audi with a huge engine. As has been said above in this thread, AM simply does not have the money to go mad on this effort. Projected price of car is ÂŁ2-3m (according to this week's Autocar). For simplicity's sake let's call that ÂŁ2.4, of which ÂŁ0.4 would be VAT, leaving ÂŁ2.0.
If a dealer would get 10% of that, we're at ÂŁ1.8m, or ÂŁ180m across 100 units, that would go to AM. That is roughly what McLaren took in for the 390 P1s, for which they already had the two most expensive elements, the drive-train and the tub - which AM will have to develop from scratch. Yet AM are talking about a vehicle that would be considerably more radical than is the P1, and a couple of orders of magnitude faster on a circuit.

Wrt another point that you mentioned, I have not seen anywhere a reference to the effect of the P1's lowering ride height on its suspension geometry. Have you? AFAIK, no one has solved the problem of optimising the location of fixed pick-up points for materially different ride heights.
 
Wrt another point that you mentioned, I have not seen anywhere a reference to the effect of the P1's lowering ride height on its suspension geometry. Have you? <acronym title="As far as I know">AFAIK</acronym>, no one has solved the problem of optimising the location of fixed pick-up points for materially different ride heights.
To be honest, I am not familiar with how the P1's ride height mechanism works. I would assume that the geometry is static throughout the (limited) range, but obviously the P1 in Race mode is still much too high for the application we are discussing.
 
Interesting discussion. I take the point about how much money Aston will earn, and therefore what is available for development, however, your maths ignore the fact that far fewer cars need to be made. This can change a number of things. Of course, the amount of raw materials required, but also the manufacturing and supplier techniques needed (conformity of production is a very key issue for manufacturers and the higher the production level the harder, and more expensive, this is). Therefore, I suspect, for the sake of argument, that Aston will not really be 'money' restricted, especially since they have a technology transfer deal with AMG and they can charge almost what they like with such a small production run.

No, I suspect the restraining factors will be how much Aston will allow Newey 'carte blanche' when it comes to how to make this car go fast, assuming there is a trade-off between track speed and comfort, even assuming that Newey can raise the equilibrium point that other design teams may work to.

If we assume that their claimed target is not marketing hyperbole and that it has been set as a real challenge, the sort of thing they would probably need to do to engage Newey, then perhaps we should try and think how it could be done if we first assume it will be done (which, admittedly, requires huge benefit of the doubt).

We all know the reasons it is difficult (like, no one has ever done it before) but this seems just the sort of thing that would energise a brilliant designer who has had the career and background of Adrian Newey.

People said that a 4 minute mile was impossible, but once Roger Bannister did it, many more followed within months of his feat. Why? Because they now believed. The real genius was Bannister's, because he believed before it could be seen. I reckon Newey might have this sort of mindset. Although it is still more likely to be marketing nonsense, I admit.

If it could be done, it would have to involve ride height, moveable aero (because otherwise it could not provide both beauty and downforce I suspect) and light weight. This light weight would need to include provision for a powerful engine too - at least 900-1,000 bhp.

So, from what we know here (pretty informed forum) what sort of power, weight and downforce combinations would get them to their target?

For instance, would 1,200 kg, 750 kg downforce at 200 Km/h and 900 bhp do it with properly sized wheels/slick tyre specification?
 
Nobody mentioned power to weight yet

F1 is better than one to one.

So better than the Koeniggsegg one to one therefore.

And let's be honest the 1:1 isn't in the league of the trinity. Although am sure it could be.

But then even with power to weight of one to one were literally miles off.

Then just look at the frontal profile of an f1 or lmp1 against a road car. Possible I guess the passenger could sit behind the driver but that's going to be an uncomfortable experience to say the least.

We can assume that the wheels will be faired in unless Aston Martin decide to produce a caterham or caparo lookalike which we can assume is unlikely.

So going to be 1200 kg probably needs in excess of 1400 BhP. More to the point those kinda engines last what 600 miles before complete strip down and refurb and Rev over 12000 Rpm. How are we going to get 1400 BhP from 9000 rpm say in an engine that doesn't weigh more than Saturn?

Let's mention frontal area again just for good measure. :).
 
Yes passenger behind the driver. Faired wheels not a disadvantage re lmp these days. And who cares about the engine rebuild, at the price surely it will be included in the maintenance package. :)

What else you got?

Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk
 
Nobody mentioned power to weight yet

F1 is better than one to one.

So better than the Koeniggsegg one to one therefore.

And let's be honest the 1:1 isn't in the league of the trinity. Although am sure it could be.

But then even with power to weight of one to one were literally miles off.

Then just look at the frontal profile of an f1 or lmp1 against a road car. Possible I guess the passenger could sit behind the driver but that's going to be an uncomfortable experience to say the least.

We can assume that the wheels will be faired in unless Aston Martin decide to produce a caterham or caparo lookalike which we can assume is unlikely.

So going to be 1200 kg probably needs in excess of 1400 BhP. More to the point those kinda engines last what 600 miles before complete strip down and refurb and Rev over 12000 Rpm. How are we going to get 1400 BhP from 9000 rpm say in an engine that doesn't way more than Saturn?

Let's mention frontal area again just for good measure. :).
As a slightly more modest reference point, can we imagine a current LMP1 car being completely deregulated, with the addition of fully active aero and ground effect, active suspension, no fuel or electrical energy restrictions, and on slicks, being an order of magnitude faster around a circuit that a standard LMP1 car is? I think we can.

LMP1 cars have carbon-carbon brakes, which have yet to be proved feasible for road cars. Going to a carbon-ceramic system for the road is going to add about 20kg, plus the apparatus for servo assistance.

Then we would have to add adjustable ride height. Further, I believe that air bags and side impact protection would be obligatory; you can get by without them and still be road-registered in the UK, but I don't think that is possible in other big markets such as the US, the Continent and China.

Adding the weight of the brakes would take away some of the advantage of the hypothetical unregulated LMP1 over the actual LMP1, but my guess is that still the former would be the quicker car. Also, we could remove the real LMP1's air-jack system, which is fairly heavy. Whether to remove the LMP1's roll cage would be a judgment call, but certainly the loss of its weight would also help.

All told, I think it is quite feasible for an LMP1-like car to be made road-legal and, without FIA regulatory constraints, to be faster than its racing car origins.

Whether such a car could be made faster than an F1 car is another question.

Whether such a car could honestly be described as a "road car" would be a question beyond that.
 
Interesting discussion. I take the point about how much money Aston will earn, and therefore what is available for development, however, your maths ignore the fact that far fewer cars need to be made. This can change a number of things. Of course, the amount of raw materials required, but also the manufacturing and supplier techniques needed (conformity of production is a very key issue for manufacturers and the higher the production level the harder, and more expensive, this is). Therefore, I suspect, for the sake of argument, that Aston will not really be 'money' restricted, especially since they have a technology transfer deal with AMG and they can charge almost what they like with such a small production run.
Yours are good points.

I think on this forum, perhaps two months ago, someone with more knowledge than I said that for McLaren the marginal cost of building a P1 was, IIRC, 25-30% of the total cost ascribed to each car (the remainder being allocated fixed costs and profit). Whatever the % is, it's going to vary: having gone down the learning curve, the time required to build the last one would have been quite a bit less than the time required to build the first one.

Putting to one side the learning curve effect, I should think that the cost of parts and assembly per unit would have to be higher for the mooted AM/Newey machine than they were for the P1. If they are going to charge more than double the price of a P1, the build quality should be presumed to be somewhat better. The P1's build quality is quite good, but it is not perfect. Also, there is quite a bit of commonality with other McLarens, which I don't think AM could get away with on the Newey car - even if they could do it technically, I think marketing reasons would make it infeasible.

The standout feature of a Veyron is not its top speed, nor its technology. The standout feature is its build quality, which is stunning. Like the car or not, the Veyron looks like it is worth the money. AM is proposing a car that would cost more than twice what a Veyron cost; for that money, it is going to have to be bloody well made, and that level of craftsmanship is expensive to achieve.

AM is going to have to start from scratch for a chassis. Okay, Newey can design a chassis in his sleep, but getting one that works as a road car, both technically (weather seals, visibility, ingress/egress, HVAC) and sufficient for all the regulatory approvals they would need will be a different matter entirely. Gordon Murray, like Newey, had never designed a road car before the F1, but during that process he learned to his frustration that it's not as easy as it looks.

My guess is that designing the chassis will be a very extensive and expensive project - again, if one assumes that this is going to be a genuine road car available for sale in the major markets around the world, not a BAC Mono- or Radical-type thing. They are both fine cars, but not true road cars.

Drivetrain? Do Mercedes currently do anything that might suit? Maybe they could detune an F1 engine, or use a variant of their DTM V8, although either would be insufficient without supplementation.

What is an acceptable service interval for the drivetrain internals on a road car? I'm not sure what it is, but it's not something ridiculous such as 1-2,000 mi. I would have thought 10,000 mi as an absolute minimum.

I think it would be great if AM/Newey could come up with a genuine successor to the McLaren F1, which really was a road car. I am just sceptical that they can manage that, especially if Aston will be funding it on its own. With a subsidy, such as what VW gave to the Veyron or McLaren Formula One gave to the F1, it might be possible.
 
At this stage I am wondering what the point is of trying to build a road car that is faster than an F1 car. Even if it were possible, the road car attributes (i.e. ride quality) would be so seriously compromised as to be basically undriveable in all but the most optimal conditions. And of course it would not be accredited for any racing series.

The hard core, track only Ferrrari FXX K, with non street legal tires, major weight reduction, significant power upgrade and extreme aero and firm suspension, managed a 1.14 at Fiorano, almost 6 seconds faster than LaFerrari. Yet it is still more than 15 seconds behind an F1 car. And I can imagine that it would not be very comfortable for the road if you could modify it for street use.

To me, the point of a hypercar is not to challenge f1 lap records, but to be the quickest and most technologically advanced road cars - rolling laboratories that show the best each manufacturer can produce without budget constraints of cheaper models. The current trio of hypercars have done that very well as far as I'm concerned.
 
As a slightly more modest reference point, can we imagine a current LMP1 car being completely deregulated, with the addition of fully active aero and ground effect, active suspension, no fuel or electrical energy restrictions, and on slicks, being an order of magnitude faster around a circuit that a standard LMP1 car is? I think we can.

LMP1 cars have carbon-carbon brakes, which have yet to be proved feasible for road cars. Going to a carbon-ceramic system for the road is going to add about 20kg, plus the apparatus for servo assistance.

Then we would have to add adjustable ride height. Further, I believe that air bags and side impact protection would be obligatory; you can get by without them and still be road-registered in the UK, but I don't think that is possible in other big markets such as the US, the Continent and China.

Adding the weight of the brakes would take away some of the advantage of the hypothetical unregulated LMP1 over the actual LMP1, but my guess is that still the former would be the quicker car. Also, we could remove the real LMP1's air-jack system, which is fairly heavy. Whether to remove the LMP1's roll cage would be a judgment call, but certainly the loss of its weight would also help.

All told, I think it is quite feasible for an LMP1-like car to be made road-legal and, without FIA regulatory constraints, to be faster than its racing car origins.

Whether such a car could be made faster than an F1 car is another question.

Whether such a car could honestly be described as a "road car" would be a question beyond that.
All well and good NB. But where does the passenger sit ? :)
 
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