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Artura

98998 Views 854 Replies 103 Participants Last post by  lolachampcar
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I’m 65 and love the theatre of ICE, especially NA.

But I see it’s time for McLaren to make this move. Very interested to see just how they set this up. Not going to be like your accountant’s hybrid SUV.

I want a button with a rocketship on it.

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A genuinely curious, how often do you think Mclaren should update their cars? It will be 6 years since the intro of the original sport series. The game moves on fast, i'm happy Mclaren continue to innovate and push out better products. Much better than Ferrari who have been milking the 458 platform for over a decade.
The issue wasn’t the creation of new models. The issue was building cars that didn’t have new buyers waiting. The creation of excess inventory without waiting buyers created the mess we have learned to accept. Hopefully that changes... and the new models won’t affect this at all.

An interesting perspective for new ICE cars. The chance that they keep getting worse until they are phased out is something I didn’t think of, but a very real possibility.
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An interesting perspective for new ICE cars. The chance that they keep getting worse until they are phased out is something I didn’t think of, but a very real possibility.
Yes. He didn’t discuss synthetic fuels.
Yes. He didn’t discuss synthetic fuels.
Cool tech. The first thing I thought was why bother since you would be spending so much energy to make the “e-fuel”... better to go straight to electric cars. Appears I am not alone.

“To produce e-fuels, electricity, preferably renewable, is used to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen is then combined with carbon dioxide to make drop-in hydrocarbons like diesel, gas (methane), or jet fuel. While e-fuels can be very low-carbon if made from new, additional renewable electricity, they can’t be low-cost at the same time. The e-fuels production process is inherently inefficient, converting at best half of the energy in the electricity into liquid or gaseous fuels. Even though wind and solar electricity costs are coming down over time, power still costs something, and that cost is essentially magnified by the low yield of e-fuels production. The equipment isn’t cheap either – the electrolyzers used to break water into hydrogen and oxygen are notoriously expensive. Some analysts believe electrolyzer prices will go through the floor in the coming decades, but our recent and very thorough literature reviewfound no evidence for these claims. Using middle of the road assumptions, we’ve found that significant volumes of renewable e-fuels won’t be made for less than 3 or 4 Euros per liter in 2030.”

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Cool tech. The first thing I thought was why bother since you would be spending so much energy to make the “e-fuel”... better to go straight to electric cars. Appears I am not alone.

“To produce e-fuels, electricity, preferably renewable, is used to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen is then combined with carbon dioxide to make drop-in hydrocarbons like diesel, gas (methane), or jet fuel. While e-fuels can be very low-carbon if made from new, additional renewable electricity, they can’t be low-cost at the same time. The e-fuels production process is inherently inefficient, converting at best half of the energy in the electricity into liquid or gaseous fuels. Even though wind and solar electricity costs are coming down over time, power still costs something, and that cost is essentially magnified by the low yield of e-fuels production. The equipment isn’t cheap either – the electrolyzers used to break water into hydrogen and oxygen are notoriously expensive. Some analysts believe electrolyzer prices will go through the floor in the coming decades, but our recent and very thorough literature reviewfound no evidence for these claims. Using middle of the road assumptions, we’ve found that significant volumes of renewable e-fuels won’t be made for less than 3 or 4 Euros per liter in 2030.”

Well in many countries 70-80% of fuel costs are in taxes (double the price in base fuel you would not even notice if some taxes are reduced) .... additional E-fuel can be made where there is a lot of engery but not many ppl... e.g. solar farms in Arabian/Australian desert and it is a net zero emission process if done right ... the fuel can be transported and distributed using existing infrastructure...

However what I find strange is that there was a process using Alge in glass watertanks to make artificial oil, which also was a net zero process and would locally even reduce CO2 eg. in urban areas - no idea why this is not pushed further ...
Cool tech. The first thing I thought was why bother since you would be spending so much energy to make the “e-fuel”... better to go straight to electric cars. Appears I am not alone.
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Yes I had read the synthetic fuel report you referenced. But large companies continue to spend significant $’s on researching synthetics - airplanes and long haul trucks may require synthetic fuel to meet increasingly tighter emissions standards. Also F1 is considering a synthetic fuel PU for the next generation engine which seems to be a path of interest to the automotive & fuel companies that participate in F1. So perhaps there could be an extension beyond 2030 for new specialist ICE vehicles. My observation was the ‘petrol car ban’ video omitted any discussion of synthetic fuel.

I am not against EV, have a Tesla and expect to buy another.
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Seen someone make a render based off of the spy shots of the Camouflaged car. Looks pretty good tbh.
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Looks good in that render, though nothing crazy wild interesting. Should sell well if the price is right.
Looks good in that render, though nothing crazy wild interesting. Should sell well if the price is right.
price should be around 600LT ... maybe 20-30k base under 720s base
A genuinely curious, how often do you think Mclaren should update their cars? It will be 6 years since the intro of the original sport series. The game moves on fast, i'm happy Mclaren continue to innovate and push out better products. Much better than Ferrari who have been milking the 458 platform for over a decade.
I wish McLaren well, I really do. You are right, Ferrari has been milking the 360/430/458/488 platform forever. And Porsche, they've been jazzing up the 911 line since before I was in high school. However, which two of these three companies do you really think will still be producing cars ten years from now? Macs' first offerings, the 12c, 650, and 675LT, excluding the P1, should be celebrated by the company as the cutting-edge achievements they were at the time, and not be relegated to the Mac dustbin of history for anything more that 2 years old.
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Yes I had read the synthetic fuel report you referenced. But large companies continue to spend significant $’s on researching synthetics - airplanes and long haul trucks may require synthetic fuel to meet increasingly tighter emissions standards. Also F1 is considering a synthetic fuel PU for the next generation engine which seems to be a path of interest to the automotive & fuel companies that participate in F1. So perhaps there could be an extension beyond 2030 for new specialist ICE vehicles. My observation was the ‘petrol car ban’ video omitted any discussion of synthetic fuel.

I am not against EV, have a Tesla and expect to buy another.
Isn't it amazing what companies will go through to try to preserve ICE engines? I have no issue with EV either... looking forward to upgrading my 2015 Model S to a Plaid or Roadster.

I think that cars like the 765LT, STO, Pista, etc. (i.e. the top of the charts now, and maybe one more generation but not likely) will be things to treasure moving forward.
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The issue wasn’t the creation of new models. The issue was building cars that didn’t have new buyers waiting. The creation of excess inventory without waiting buyers created the mess we have learned to accept. Hopefully that changes... and the new models won’t affect this at all.

An interesting perspective for new ICE cars. The chance that they keep getting worse until they are phased out is something I didn’t think of, but a very real possibility.
case in point both GT variants that very few want and nobody asked for. Still can't figure out the current GT and how McLaren ever thought they had or could create a market for such a platform. Not suggesting its a bad car but how they every made a business case for it is beyond me.
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A genuinely curious, how often do you think Mclaren should update their cars? It will be 6 years since the intro of the original sport series. The game moves on fast, i'm happy Mclaren continue to innovate and push out better products. Much better than Ferrari who have been milking the 458 platform for over a decade.
Maybe this is just my perspective from paying more attention to McLaren releases but each variation on a base model is marketed more as a new car as opposed to a variant . For example with the 570s the special edition is the 600lt/620r where even the number based naming convention obscures if the 600lt is a new model or a variant. Compare this to the 488 and 488 Pista. Ferrari can afford the perception of less differentiation between base mode and variant and Porsche can afford their many variations on the same platform because of existing demand/brand recognition. Mclaren is forced to play this game or sell less cars IMO.
Yes I had read the synthetic fuel report you referenced. But large companies continue to spend significant $’s on researching synthetics - airplanes and long haul trucks may require synthetic fuel to meet increasingly tighter emissions standards. Also F1 is considering a synthetic fuel PU for the next generation engine which seems to be a path of interest to the automotive & fuel companies that participate in F1. So perhaps there could be an extension beyond 2030 for new specialist ICE vehicles. My observation was the ‘petrol car ban’ video omitted any discussion of synthetic fuel.

I am not against EV, have a Tesla and expect to buy another.
Hydrogen not synthetic fuel will replace conventional fuel in their current applications, I think. If you're gonna use an electrolyzer you may as well go hydrogen. If you look at corn based bioethanol fuel in the US, economically and environmentally it makes no sense without subsidization from taxpayers and only serves to increase the price of corn.

What I don't understand is why they don't just tax cars taking into account the overall impact of their CO2 emissions. In 20yrs the only ones who can afford to own cars/sportscars are going to be the rich anyways.
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Mclaren Artura vs Maserati MC20? I think the MC20 was built with hybridization/electric power in mind?
Looks good in that render, though nothing crazy wild interesting. Should sell well if the price is right.
I agree. Actually like it more than the 570s tbh
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Hydrogen not synthetic fuel will replace conventional fuel in their current applications, I think. If you're gonna use an electrolyzer you may as well go hydrogen. ........
Yes H2 works for fuel cell EV’s. But not so well for existing ICE cars without making extensive modifications. Also synthetic fuel production subtracts CO2 from the atmosphere.
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Yes H2 works for fuel cell EV’s. But not so well for existing ICE cars without making extensive modifications. Also synthetic fuel production subtracts CO2 from the atmosphere.
Imo once fuel cell price hits the critical point for adoption refitting a fuel cell + battery + motor will have less running costs than maintaining the existing ICE. For corn derived ethanol you could also say that it subtracts C02 from the atmosphere, the problem is that the running costs/energy of the overall system far exceeds the benefits from running it. I believe the same will hold true for synthetic fuel at least to my knowledge.
Imo once fuel cell price hits the critical point for adoption refitting a fuel cell + battery + motor will have less running costs than maintaining the existing ICE. For corn derived ethanol you could also say that it subtracts C02 from the atmosphere, the problem is that the running costs/energy of the overall system far exceeds the benefits from running it. I believe the same will hold true for synthetic fuel at least to my knowledge.
Much as I like the concept of fuel cells, not sure that “refitting a fuel cell” into existing cars would be an attractive or viable solution for many :( !

As you are aware the effect of EV battery car adoption is to push much of the CO2 problem upstream to the electric power producers - nuclear fission has its waste problems and unfortunately fusion power is still a way off and in addition there is the problem of upgrading the existing electric power networks to handle the transfer from gas (petroleum) distributed (in tanker truck) power to electric power. The use of synthetics and/or bio fuels could be a solution for the large number of ICE vehicles that will be on the road for many many years past 2030 .... :)
Imo once fuel cell price hits the critical point for adoption refitting a fuel cell + battery + motor will have less running costs than maintaining the existing ICE. For corn derived ethanol you could also say that it subtracts C02 from the atmosphere, the problem is that the running costs/energy of the overall system far exceeds the benefits from running it. I believe the same will hold true for synthetic fuel at least to my knowledge.
for corn you need space that would otherwise be used for more beneficial farming ... major minus. E fuels made from other sources e.g. Methane Pyrolysis will create climate neutral bio fuels that will sell at a premium ...

it will just be like the the remaining ICE cars will have to get this premium CO2 neurtral fuel (maybe 2-3x the price of todays fuel) while the majority of cars will be EVs or H2 powered ... more or less its just like you have to pay to play and a fuel tank for a car like the 720s won't be 50-60 usd anymore but 130-150 ...
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you have to pay to play and a fuel tank for a car like the 720s won't be 50-60 usd anymore but 130-150 ...
WORTH IT!!!
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