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Discussion Starter #1
Let's just establish a difference. Bringing the car to a track day and lapping around is fun. What I mean for serious track use is bringing the car on track tires (slicks, R6, R1S, A6, V710 or other), and running at 8/10th to 10/10th on a racetrack.

I have read about the car entering limp mode due to engine compartment temperatures, and losing power due to heat soak.

Have you used a data acquisition system on your track laps (AiM, VBox, Traqmate, other)? With this data, it is easy to spot what's the effect of heat soak comparing the first laps to the last laps.

I have driven 3 different 458 Italia, and a few months ago test drove a MP4-12C with steel brakes. I'm not a fan of the 458 Italia due to its excessive weight (the standard U.S. car hits the scales at almost 3,500 lbs w/o driver). The MP4-12C test drive blew my mind away, I was motivated to get into one, but as I have done before, I play more rationally than emotionally when buying cars.

Feel free to share your lap times around the racetrack, and indicate the tires used.

The only aspects I don't like in the MP4-12C is the lack of a Limited Slip and the lack of lightweight race seats as an option. The racetrack reliability has yet to be proven.

This car is a lot faster than the 458 Italia, not a little faster, a lot faster, but as long as Fiat keeps bringing ringer cars to their tests, the results published by the media will be flawed.
 

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Let's just establish a difference. Bringing the car to a track day and lapping around is fun. What I mean for serious track use is bringing the car on track tires (slicks, R6, R1S, A6, V710 or other), and running at 8/10th to 10/10th on a racetrack.

I have read about the car entering limp mode due to engine compartment temperatures, and losing power due to heat soak.

Have you used a data acquisition system on your track laps (AiM, VBox, Traqmate, other)? With this data, it is easy to spot what's the effect of heat soak comparing the first laps to the last laps.

I have driven 3 different 458 Italia, and a few months ago test drove a MP4-12C with steel brakes. I'm not a fan of the 458 Italia due to its excessive weight (the standard U.S. car hits the scales at almost 3,500 lbs w/o driver). The MP4-12C test drive blew my mind away, I was motivated to get into one, but as I have done before, I play more rationally than emotionally when buying cars.

Feel free to share your lap times around the racetrack, and indicate the tires used.

The only aspects I don't like in the MP4-12C is the lack of a Limited Slip and the lack of lightweight race seats as an option. The racetrack reliability has yet to be proven.

This car is a lot faster than the 458 Italia, not a little faster, a lot faster, but as long as Fiat keeps bringing ringer cars to their tests, the results published by the media will be flawed.
How was your MP4 track experience compared to your scud?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I did not get to test drive the MP4 on a racetrack unfortunately. But based on a spirited 20 minutes drive, the car feels lighter than my Scuderia even though it isn't, it has the same GoKart feeling my Scuderia has, something non-existent in the 458 Italia (the Italia feels like a GT with a rear engine). 12C acceleration is mind blowing.

The Carbon brakes in the 12C use the same shape brake pads as the 430 Scuderia, F430 Challenge, 458 Challenge and 458 Italia. I would prefer the 12C with Carbon rotors, and get custom made steel rotors on the same dimensions for track use.

At 3,130 lbs in U.S. trim with the lightweight options and no fuel, the 12C is one of the lightest cars available for sale with more than 400Hp.

I'm not sold on the lack of LSD, I have driven all sort of electronic wannabe LSD systems, but something that applies brakes to a wheel when I want to accelerate is not optimized, it's just a bandage. Lotus used to be proud of the open diff in the Elise, and some hard core U.S. drivers forced them to add a LSD as an option, the Elise/Exige became better with the optional LSD.

In between the 458 Italia and the 12C, my choice is the 12C, better engineered product:

- Carbon Tub
- A Graziano gearbox instead of the faulty Getrag in the 458
- A Ricardo engine originally developed as a race unit
- Double wishbones at all corners (like the Scuderia and F430)
- Pagid brake pads, not the crappy Textar in the 458
- 300 lbs lighter than a 458
- Massive torque and acceleration
- An inconel optional exhaust

It is a great product, despite of being a brand new from-scratch design.
 

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I did not get to test drive the MP4 on a racetrack unfortunately. But based on a spirited 20 minutes drive, the car feels lighter than my Scuderia even though it isn't, it has the same GoKart feeling my Scuderia has, something non-existent in the 458 Italia (the Italia feels like a GT with a rear engine). 12C acceleration is mind blowing.

The Carbon brakes in the 12C use the same shape brake pads as the 430 Scuderia, F430 Challenge, 458 Challenge and 458 Italia. I would prefer the 12C with Carbon rotors, and get custom made steel rotors on the same dimensions for track use.

At 3,130 lbs in U.S. trim with the lightweight options and no fuel, the 12C is one of the lightest cars available for sale with more than 400Hp.

I'm not sold on the lack of LSD, I have driven all sort of electronic wannabe LSD systems, but something that applies brakes to a wheel when I want to accelerate is not optimized, it's just a bandage. Lotus used to be proud of the open diff in the Elise, and some hard core U.S. drivers forced them to add a LSD as an option, the Elise/Exige became better with the optional LSD.

In between the 458 Italia and the 12C, my choice is the 12C, better engineered product:

- Carbon Tub
- A Graziano gearbox instead of the faulty Getrag in the 458
- A Ricardo engine originally developed as a race unit
- Double wishbones at all corners (like the Scuderia and F430)
- Pagid brake pads, not the crappy Textar in the 458
- 300 lbs lighter than a 458
- Massive torque and acceleration
- An inconel optional exhaust

It is a great product, despite of being a brand new from-scratch design.
I think it's the stiffness of the tub, which creates the light impression compared to the scud.
 

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Nice to see you here, F430GT; I have enjoyed your very informed posts on other websites.

There is not much, if any, customer data yet using serious rubber. The only tires so far that come close to OEM sizes are Toyo R888s. A member has them on and is apparently running a track day this month, so eager to see his results. A tuner has MPSCs on different rims, but no real reports on their performance that I can find.

With regard to cooling, I think this will only be an issue on very short tracks without adequate straights. Road & Track ran into a heat issue using the Radical Loop at SM. Have not seen any reported problems at larger tracks, but may have missed something along the way.

I've run my 12C quite hard on the track on the std P0 and the car really needs better rubber for anything above say 6/10s. The Corsa tires seem back-ordered indefinitely. With regards to Brake Steer, I'd only suggest giving the car a good track workout before forming any conclusions on the lack of LSD. I've tracked many supercars and some racecars and I can honestly say I don't miss it. Your mileage may vary! :)

Cheers.
 

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KC seriously tracks all his cars . Including his 12c , 2 days non stop at spa with organisers we know that basically let us race ( as long as we dont bully the civilians ) . The abuse his car took ( and takes ) was what convinced me to buy one , on other forums I was very critical of the 12c until I saw this with my own eyes .
It was impressive .

By the way MSO now offer race seats and a roll bar / harnesses .
Looks lovely in the pictures .
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I'm interested on lap times under hot weather conditions at tracks where there is plenty of data available: Laguna Seca, Watkins Glen, VIR, Sebring, Road America and some others.

In cold weather and standard tires, everything works well. Then there is the driver's factor, being 5+ secs behind the cars potential lap times by a Pro means less stress on the equipment, and no information on the car weaknesses. My 430 Scuderia brakes are sufficient for the stock Pirelli Corsa tires, as soon as I switched to stickier tires, the brakes and suspension became a handicap.

The Pirelli Corsa System are crappy tires based on the data I acquired when testing them against Hoosier A6, Bridgestone RE11 and Toyo R888, same racetrack for several continuous weeks on same weather.

The right call for the 12C is 19" wheels all around, wider front and rear wheels, and a large variety of sticky tires. I think brake cooling is going to be a problem based on what I saw when I checked the car, and the fact that it carries more weight and more speed than a 430 Scuderia.

I agree that the Pirelli Trofeo are the best track tires that can be driven on the streets, I have a fresh set of them and a fresh set of race spec MPSC for the Scuderia, the Trofeo does better than the MPSC, the R888 and my RE11 street tires. However, the data I collected from Sebring shows the Trofeo too far away from the level of grip I get from R6/A6 and Pirelli slicks.

I have not tried the Trofeo R just yet, but I read a comparison between the Trofeo and Trofeo R, and the R is lasting longer but lost grip compared to the original Trofeo (Trofeo wears out in 4 track days or less, after 5 hours of track driving).
 

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The so called "Track Pack" is now officially available from MSO. Recaro Pole Position bucket seats (in leather), powercoated roll bar and 4-point Schroth harnesses. Price is supposed to be around 13'000€. The package is not retrofittable.
Say it ain't so! Can you comment on what makes it non-retrofittable? The roll bar anchor points I'm going to guess..
 

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F430GT,

I only know of one completely stock car that can hold up to this kind of serious tracking. From our discussions before re scud brakes, I think you know which one I mean. Unfortunately they stopped making them in 2010 and they are not much good on regular roads. With that said, the 12C is still a blast on the track and comletely awesome everywhere else. PM if you want to hear more.
 

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I drove my 12C completely stock with street tires and steel brakes in the middle of June in Texas. The track was TWS. Air Temps were 95F that wknd. Track temps were in the 120's range. I had a few laps where the lap were in the 1:57-1:59 range. A good friend of mine pulled a 1:55 in the car. For reference 996 Cups on A6's are around 1:48-1:50 at the track. I had issues with heat soak. 3 times I saw orange lights warning of increasing oil and water temps though when I checked the oil temps they were in the 230's. That's not terribly high in my book then again.. I don't know how accurate the digital reading is.

I personally think you will have heat issues. I was driving at 8/10 ths and had temp issues. I don't see how it would happen if you were on A6's and at 10/10ths.
 

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Say it ain't so! Can you comment on what makes it non-retrofittable? The roll bar anchor points I'm going to guess..
I' afraid I can't comment on this as I don't know the reasons behind it. I was just told it is not retrofittable which I think is very unfortunate for existing owners.

There is another solution for the retrofit of harness, sport seats and rollbar and I'm currently collecting information about it.

Hope that helps.



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I drove my 12C completely stock with street tires and steel brakes in the middle of June in Texas. The track was TWS. Air Temps were 95F that wknd. Track temps were in the 120's range. I had a few laps where the lap were in the 1:57-1:59 range. A good friend of mine pulled a 1:55 in the car. For reference 996 Cups on A6's are around 1:48-1:50 at the track. I had issues with heat soak. 3 times I saw orange lights warning of increasing oil and water temps though when I checked the oil temps they were in the 230's. That's not terribly high in my book then again.. I don't know how accurate the digital reading is.

I personally think you will have heat issues. I was driving at 8/10 ths and had temp issues. I don't see how it would happen if you were on A6's and at 10/10ths.
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tracking at 95 degrees in texas is pretty punishing for a turbo car. Track temps of 120 are absolutely brutal as well. I wonder were those heat issues come from. The 12c has water ICs so it should be doing better that other turbo cars on intake temperature caused heat soak. Is it EGTs? or engine compartment temperature of some kind? Do we know what is causing the heat soak?
The gearbox oil is an entirely different matter..
 

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I've tracked/ raced mine in Texas with temps as high as 117 and the only issue I saw was launch control disbled due to high gearbox temperature. I never saw water temp too high.
 

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I've tracked/ raced mine in Texas with temps as high as 117 and the only issue I saw was launch control disbled due to high gearbox temperature. I never saw water temp too high.
Makes sense. McDaddy would know that a great number of their customers would be in the Arabian Peninsula, South America and similar hot climes. They wouldn't build a car that couldn't perform under those conditions. Ron D is far too smart for that.
 

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I had my 12c at Road America in 90 degree weather. The oil temp went yellow but stayed out of the red. Due to a faulty Intercomp tire pressure gauge I was running 3-4 lbs less than the already low pressures the McLaren engineers recommended but I still managed to run high 2:27s with top speeds on both GPS and radar gun in the 160 mph range. For context, I'm no pro but did race a 997 cup in the IMSA Patron series and wirh PCA. I've also raced 996 cups and a few different stock class cars.

I found the 12c to be a handful under heavy braking (steel). If you've been to RA, entering t5 downhill at 160+ was a somewhat frightening experience. Entering Canada corner was also a bit harrowing. Plenty of brake but not enough tire. That's the bad stuff. The good stuff is the car is wonderful everywhere else. Very fast, very predictable. It responds to normal inputs like trail braking, throttle inputs, etc. just like a proper race car. Can't wait to get back with real tires. I'm sure it would run a 22 or 23 on Hoosiers.
 
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