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991 gt3 v 12c
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This is exactly why automotive journalists come off as idiots. Racing IS TIRES. Gawd that's awful reporting.
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have to say I got bored with evo when harris was there voting the Porsche at all costs and heh presto turns up in the 24h with Walter Rohrl
and bovingdon got a great scope with an interview with Prueninger, and now we have this...
I don't doubt that the gt3 is an awesome car but the lead up to 'it beat the 12c by .1' is truly silly..
mcdc in the 12c and bovingdon in the gt3 would be more of an entertaining article..
It does sound great.
That said, It's weird in he was driving the Mac like a school girl, and then we saw the GT3 hitting curbs like a pinball. I wonder if the driver was more familiar with the 911, and somehow more tentative with the Mac. At least they (grudgingly) mention the difference in tires (yet downplaying it).
I have a hard time believing a driver pushing both cars wouldn't do better in the turns with the Mac. Even on a short/tight circuit. Good luck getting around a good driver on a turn once they put you behind on the straight when the cars are close in handling on the turns. I know a lot of guys here like EVO, but I think they suck balls and have a good track record of sucking balls. Same with the 458, so this doesn't surprise me.
Funny that the 458 "won" in their comparison, yet here they call the Mac the "standard benchmark." All positioning to bash the Mac to extract whatever result they want. Like much of the press, say anything to get eyeballs, sell to your sponsors and blow the right constituents. The story is a tool and not a truth. Anyway, enough of my tinfoil rants.
The GT3 looks like a fantastic car, and no doubt a good driver can push it to do great things. That it's a fantastic car is something that I think most folks can easily agree with.
That said, It's weird in he was driving the Mac like a school girl, and then we saw the GT3 hitting curbs like a pinball. I wonder if the driver was more familiar with the 911, and somehow more tentative with the Mac. At least they (grudgingly) mention the difference in tires (yet downplaying it).
I have a hard time believing a driver pushing both cars wouldn't do better in the turns with the Mac. Even on a short/tight circuit. Good luck getting around a good driver on a turn once they put you behind on the straight when the cars are close in handling on the turns. I know a lot of guys here like EVO, but I think they suck balls and have a good track record of sucking balls. Same with the 458, so this doesn't surprise me.
Funny that the 458 "won" in their comparison, yet here they call the Mac the "standard benchmark." All positioning to bash the Mac to extract whatever result they want. Like much of the press, say anything to get eyeballs, sell to your sponsors and blow the right constituents. The story is a tool and not a truth. Anyway, enough of my tinfoil rants.
The GT3 looks like a fantastic car, and no doubt a good driver can push it to do great things. That it's a fantastic car is something that I think most folks can easily agree with.
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I'd pay to see that.
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Right. I bet they were too chicken sh!t to use the 458 as a benchmark, because Ferrari would go ape when the Porsche was faster in a non-sanctioned 'test'.
He sounds so dumb, getting all giddy about the lap times and then mentioning the tires as a 'by the way'. I read on another site that he later clarified the GT3 was on Dunlop sport max treadwear 80, while the 12C was on std p0 treadwear 220, not even Corsas. What a moron.
I don't regret canceling my sub to EVO or any of these mags one bit.
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Me too.. I just don't think any do these journos take the time to really work the mac out.. It's strange, particularly for the British guys.
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Couldn't agree more, the 12C is that kind of car (bit like the GTR), it needs time and gets better all the time. By contrast, the 911 (any of them) is what it is, pretty much straight away, then just gets a little boring imho (I've owned 3 Inc a 996 Turbo).
The journo thing is also very true, I try not to get too bothered with negative press but obviously I want want to see 'my' choice do well, on the whole it does and I don't mind constructive comments. Autocar have every right to note that some trim has fallen off their long termer and that Doris is a bitch, as long as they keep it real.
And it does seem to be the Brit reporters that are the worst. The most hideous example I can think of was Plato and Needle on the 5th gear classic.
But we're a bit like that aren't we!
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On my `09 ACR Viper I could get a ~4 hours of track time (8 x 25 min sessions) and about 1500 miles. Straight street driving was between 4000 & 5000 miles. Also consider the car had no traction control of any kind and around 560tq to the tires aver 4k rpm. I bet the 12c would do 7-8k miles easy on a set. With the badass traction control the 12c has I wouldn't even sweat the rain. The Cups are very sensitive to heat cycles. After about 15 cycles they get greasy - consider normal street driving does not heat cycle the tires.
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Looks like that GT3 has a nice big wing on the back. I wonder what sort of downforce the car is producing? Low top speeds and a fast lap time are usually a good indicator.
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interesting Naranja.. .have never owned a turbo, but it was one car I would love to have loved, but I thought, aside of the Vanquish it was the most disappointing car I'd ever driven .. 996 or 997.. power band very narrow, low rev limit, all or nothing power delivery, (yes I know its a turbo but) and the suspension over an uneven road, as with all 'standard' suspension 911 I thought was just woeful.. turn in, non existent..
the most surprising thing I guess was how much I enjoyed the GT3 variants... not just relative to the turbo, they were/are just awesome.. that 30 mill suspension drop, amongst other things, makes a huge difference..
I still think you guys are pretty hard on Evo.. although they do come across at times as Porsche shills, Porsche have likewise made some awfully good cars as well over the years. They would I admit come across a lot better admitting upfront the (massive) advantage the Dunlop sport max tyres had over the standard P0s though. Car reviews are by nature quite subjective and surely we don't really need validation of the 12c over every other car. The 12c has picked up quite a few 5 star ratings from evo over the last few issues and if they still carp on some respect of the car relative to say the R8 V10 plus (which was a surprise) or the gt3 (less of a surprise), overall they have still always stated the 12c is a bloody good car.
Agreed with Mikeyb above though, the 997 turbo s I tried was really a bit meh.. got to warp speed very quickly indeed and had absolutely brilliant ceramic brakes but that was about it and to be honest the 997.2 standard carrera I drove a few weeks before actually felt rather a lot more fun and alive to drive and I wasn't terribly impressed by that one already. Raw performance is definitely going down the list of things I find important in a car and to be honest I am never sure why anyone would get a turbo over a gt3 of any kind.
Agreed with Mikeyb above though, the 997 turbo s I tried was really a bit meh.. got to warp speed very quickly indeed and had absolutely brilliant ceramic brakes but that was about it and to be honest the 997.2 standard carrera I drove a few weeks before actually felt rather a lot more fun and alive to drive and I wasn't terribly impressed by that one already. Raw performance is definitely going down the list of things I find important in a car and to be honest I am never sure why anyone would get a turbo over a gt3 of any kind.
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i have an RS 4.0 and on our local track i was 4sec (1:49) faster on the porsche than in my MP4 (1:53). the porsche has PCCB and sportcups. i know its not a fair comparison since the MP4 is on steels and regular PZero and on Sport mode handling -the tire grip and braking power were the biggest difference. for a novice driver, the P-Car gave me so much more confidence. both cars i had only taken to the track once but i'm quite well versed with the track having driven there for about 8 years now. hence i would believe that on a small track like that, given limited time to learn and familiarize ones self to the characteristics of the car, i wouldn't doubt the new 991 GT3 can be faster than the MP4.
however, i could really feel that there's so much more to exploit in the MP4 but i feel i have to learn to drive it more. also, the grip of the tires are just so far apart.
anyway, this is not to take anything away from the MP4. the P-Car is like one dimensional in purpose while the MP4 is amazing because it is like jekyll and hyde. i just really wish the car came standard with Corsa tires and CCB. i actually regret now that i have taken the car to the track not speccing the CCB. i know the Corsa are DOT R tires as well but it is still nowhere the grip of the michelin sportcups and could actually be used comfortably as a road tire -just don't go fast when it rains.
however, i could really feel that there's so much more to exploit in the MP4 but i feel i have to learn to drive it more. also, the grip of the tires are just so far apart.
anyway, this is not to take anything away from the MP4. the P-Car is like one dimensional in purpose while the MP4 is amazing because it is like jekyll and hyde. i just really wish the car came standard with Corsa tires and CCB. i actually regret now that i have taken the car to the track not speccing the CCB. i know the Corsa are DOT R tires as well but it is still nowhere the grip of the michelin sportcups and could actually be used comfortably as a road tire -just don't go fast when it rains.
I was given to believe tyre grip really is the limiting factor for braking and not any intrinsic advantage ceramic stoppers have over steels though and while ceramics might resist fade better, if one is seriously tracking the car, you are going to be going through the ceramic discs very quickly indeed and those discs are frightfully expensive......
Hey ISV.
We'll have to agree to disagree about evo.
I really find your comments about the turbo s very interesting. I think the turbo s is brilliant. the 997, it's earlier incarnations, and likely the new 991. It lets you feel where the limit is, it lets a relatively mediocre driver feel it, and control it close to the limit. A car that's easy to learn, feel, intuit, and that drives at the limit with little to no drama, to me, is the epitome of success. IMO the excitement should come not from worry that the car may snap and kill you at some uncertain moment, but from what you're doing with the car, e.g., going ridiculously fast.
I can certainly understand that folks have different sensibilities and like more drama.
Anyway, what I find odd is if that's your view, what did you see in the Mac? Because it's a lot like the turbo s in a lot of ways. It makes even an ok driver feel confident pushing it, it's a low drama car. It's that tired old meme of it being sterile. So how did your view on the Mac come out differently? Just curious.
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