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Nope, we are the same people buying both brands for the most part. I do have a feeling this car will do better than most other Mclarens in the past as there is nothing like it on the market almost at any price point.
I think they are only the same buyers in that if you made a venn diagram the McLaren circle would be smaller than the Ferrari one. I believe almost all McLarens go to people who also buy Ferraris, but I think there is a large number of Ferrari buyers who don't buy McLarens, or Lamborghinis for that matter. Just my opinion though.

I just don't see McLaren having the collector base and brand/lifestyle image as Ferrari. P1 and Senna are very low production, yet they don't enjoy nearly the same premium as something like an F12 TDF.

Aside from a McLaren F1, is there any McLaren even selling much above MSRP these days?
 

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To your point I only had about 1300 miles on my Pista after 18 months. I plan to drive the 765 every day the weather allows regardless of depreciation.
yes but is what also makes McLaren cars depreciate more on the secondary market ... you often see Ferraris change hands 2-3 times over a period of several years with nearly no milage by the respective owners ...
 

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I think they are only the same buyers in that if you made a venn diagram the McLaren circle would be smaller than the Ferrari one. I believe almost all McLarens go to people who also buy Ferraris, but I think there is a large number of Ferrari buyers who don't buy McLarens, or Lamborghinis for that matter. Just my opinion though.

I just don't see McLaren having the collector base and brand/lifestyle image as Ferrari. P1 and Senna are very low production, yet they don't enjoy nearly the same premium as something like an F12 TDF.

Aside from a McLaren F1, is there any McLaren even selling much above MSRP these days?
TdF is an outlier ... its basically the only modern NA V12 besides the Sp1/2 which is truly collectible and holding (besides very extremely limited 599SA Aperta) ... both are retro cars however taking most design elements from 1950is 1960is icons that are many times there value ...

P1 is still over, Speedtail is, most Senna are and the 620R strangely also
 

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TdF is an outlier ... its basically the only modern NA V12 besides the Sp1/2 which is truly collectible and holding (besides very extremely limited 599SA Aperta) ... both are retro cars however taking most design elements from 1950is 1960is icons that are many times there value ...

P1 is still over, Speedtail is, most Senna are and the 620R strangely also
Enzo and F40 trade for massively more than P1 too, no? Not only do they not trade at prices similar to Ferraris, they don't trade at anywhere near the premium either. P1 appears to be above MSRP at first glance, but how much? I see one for sale asking $1.4M. IIRC, these cars were like $1.3M to begin with. That's not much of a premium when you consider what a unique model 375 unit Ferrari would command.
 

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Enzo and F40 trade for massively more than P1 too, no? Not only do they not trade at prices similar to Ferraris, they don't trade at anywhere near the premium either. P1 appears to be above MSRP at first glance, but how much? I see one for sale asking $1.4M. IIRC, these cars were like $1.3M to begin with. That's not much of a premium when you consider what a unique model 375 unit Ferrari would command.

older LE Ferraris are usually when collected, collected for other reasons - mostly that is a kind of a blue chip investment, which is different from the usual McLaren purchase which is done for enjoying the car on the street ...
 

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This is an interesting topic, and most turn into value threads. Mclaren is still basically a 10 year old car company unlike Ferrari and Porsche. Mclaren entered the market at the right time to make a brand that was available, and not play the Ferrari and Porsche game both brands I’ve owned and the one I will always keep is a Porsche because they don’t break.

‘Market penetration is not an easy thing to do, and Mclaren cars aren’t cheap to purchase which tells you they’re taking sales from the high-end counterparts. The key now is to create brand/cult following that Porsche and Ferrari have created/I favor the Porsche side. I say that because you drive a Ferrari and put miles on it it’s a sin .......so for me I see no value in that, so they have become let me buy it and part and trade it like a a Picasso to a certain degree. The 488’s trade like Mclaren’s, and are close in trade to the little brother 458 which is a better car some argue.

Im new to Mclaren because I wanted to try what everyone was experiencing, one my dealer is excellent, two I love the car because it’s raw, and third I’m not convinced enough to buy a new car because the brand is still building cache. Doesn’t mean I don’t love them, but time will tell and I think the 765LT will be a measure in the journey to pricing stability. I will say the cars are much more fun to drive than all the other brands hands down. The reason I love my Speedster it’s a manual 500 HP car, and it feels like a old school NA raw car .......Mclaren’s are missiles that you say oh my god. I like a mix of NA and crazy speed, so I chose to hang around two brands Porsche and Mclaren. We’re all so fortunate to drive these cars, and over the years I’ve been more of a car person vs car brand because you get tunnel vision on one manufacturer.
 

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The prices on the low volume cars fluctuate, i.e. TDF, F40, Senna, etc. The market will dip and rise. Senna's could be had under list and then just like that they popped again. TDF at list, then they popped but they will come back down. Its hard to compare because at any given time the market moves one way or another.

Today normal cars such as the G63, Urus and a bunch of others are all at list or over even with miles. The current market is absurd. I sold my 18' manual GT3 for $10k more than I paid for it a couple months ago, it sold overnight. Ask any car dealer about the challenges of getting decent cars at a reasonable price.
 

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I think they are only the same buyers in that if you made a venn diagram the McLaren circle would be smaller than the Ferrari one. I believe almost all McLarens go to people who also buy Ferraris, but I think there is a large number of Ferrari buyers who don't buy McLarens, or Lamborghinis for that matter. Just my opinion though.

I just don't see McLaren having the collector base and brand/lifestyle image as Ferrari. P1 and Senna are very low production, yet they don't enjoy nearly the same premium as something like an F12 TDF.

Aside from a McLaren F1, is there any McLaren even selling much above MSRP these days?
What Ferrari in the current range are over MSRP? Not the Pista, not the F8, not the portofino, not the 812 SF, not the Lusso. Ferrari has been making cars for 74 years. Mclaren has been making cars for 10 years (not counting the f1 but regular production starting with 12c). How in the world can you compare collector base between those 2 brands. That’s like comparing Patek Philippe/Rolex to Gronefeld. One is an established watch company that has a huge following and the antique pieces trade for millions. The other is a new watch company that is low production and making some amazing watches.
 

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I think they are only the same buyers in that if you made a venn diagram the McLaren circle would be smaller than the Ferrari one. I believe almost all McLarens go to people who also buy Ferraris, but I think there is a large number of Ferrari buyers who don't buy McLarens, or Lamborghinis for that matter. Just my opinion though.

I just don't see McLaren having the collector base and brand/lifestyle image as Ferrari. P1 and Senna are very low production, yet they don't enjoy nearly the same premium as something like an F12 TDF.

Aside from a McLaren F1, is there any McLaren even selling much above MSRP these days?
TDF's can still be bought at or close to list, it is spec dependent. Dont get confused with asking vs. selling prices.
 

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The problem with these types of discussions is that people have very little data. The sales are not public. The amount that a buyer received from a dealer vs. the amount that a car actually sold at are not public. People will cherry pick and give an example that they know of to prove whatever point they are making.

One cannot isolate an example by itself. The entire purchase history to get to a certain point on the ferrari side has to be taken into consideration.

A ferrari general manager once told me that a TDF being sold $300K above by the original owner would be in the same economic situation with all purchases required to get that TDF as a Senna owner on the mclaren side who sold for $200K below MSRP.

I took my time shopping around for a Pista. It was eye opening of the spread between buy from ferrari dealer and sell to a different person. It was a very, very big difference. Pista's and 812 at the moment are the two cars that have the biggest spread between dealer buy rate and sell rate to another customer.

I saw a Pista being sold for $20K over (through a ferrari dealer with two year CPO included about 300 miles and mid $400K MSRP) and another one being sold for $45K below at a different dealer (1,000 miles and MSRP around $505K).

A car being listed at with dealer for $505K that was purchased from the customer for $415K (it needed new tires and brake pads and had 1,600 miles on it).

Also - people mix apples and oranges with this topic.... Fchat people bragging about not having depreciation on a 458 (they leave out the part that they bought a 2011 model that is fully depreciated in 2018 and had it for one year as an example).
 

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The problem with these types of discussions is that people have very little data. The sales are not public. The amount that a buyer received from a dealer vs. the amount that a car actually sold at are not public. People will cherry pick and give an example that they know of to prove whatever point they are making.

One cannot isolate an example by itself. The entire purchase history to get to a certain point on the ferrari side has to be taken into consideration.

A ferrari general manager once told me that a TDF being sold $300K above by the original owner would be in the same economic situation with all purchases required to get that TDF as a Senna owner on the mclaren side who sold for $200K below MSRP.

I took my time shopping around for a Pista. It was eye opening of the spread between buy from ferrari dealer and sell to a different person. It was a very, very big difference. Pista's and 812 at the moment are the two cars that have the biggest spread between dealer buy rate and sell rate to another customer.

I saw a Pista being sold for $20K over (through a ferrari dealer with two year CPO included about 300 miles and mid $400K MSRP) and another one being sold for $45K below at a different dealer (1,000 miles and MSRP around $505K).

A car being listed at with dealer for $505K that was purchased from the customer for $415K (it needed new tires and brake pads and had 1,600 miles on it).

Also - people mix apples and oranges with this topic.... Fchat people bragging about not having depreciation on a 458 (they leave out the part that they bought a 2011 model that is fully depreciated in 2018 and had it for one year as an example).
Exactly and also the spec may drive the value. If someone finds a used car that checks all their boxes they may pay a premium.
 

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Mclaren depreciation is fueled by Mclaren selling unsold and not ordered cars to dealers for inventory purposes. The cars are often sold to consumers at a discount. That is responsible for driving the prices down. Mclaren must rethink this policy if they want to solve this problem. It was a short sighted tactic to increase sales, which it did, but unfortunately the consequence, unintended or not, resulted in higher than usual depreciation on their cars going forward. The 765LT should prove to be an exception since it is a limited production, numbered car. Discounts were not offered and there are no inventory cars available. And it is a truly spectacular, unique super car and it very well may be the last of its type. Ferrari and Lamborghini operate on consumer sales by order with the usual - 8 - 16 month wait time for delivery. Rarely, do they have new inventory for sale. Ferrari does not discount prices on ordered cars. Lamborgini will offer a small discount, generally around $5000.
 

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Mclaren depreciation is fueled by Mclaren selling unsold and not ordered cars to dealers for inventory purposes. The cars are often sold to consumers at a discount. That is responsible for driving the prices down. Mclaren must rethink this policy if they want to solve this problem. It was a short sighted tactic to increase sales, which it did, but unfortunately the consequence, unintended or not, resulted in higher than usual depreciation on their cars going forward. The 765LT should prove to be an exception since it is a limited production, numbered car. Discounts were not offered and there are no inventory cars available. And it is a truly spectacular, unique super car and it very well may be the last of its type. Ferrari and Lamborghini operate on consumer sales by order with the usual - 8 - 16 month wait time for delivery. Rarely, do they have new inventory for sale. Ferrari does not discount prices on ordered cars. Lamborgini will offer a small discount, generally around $5000.
Spot on ......just look at how many unsold 720’s around.

 

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Mclaren depreciation is fueled by Mclaren selling unsold and not ordered cars to dealers for inventory purposes. The cars are often sold to consumers at a discount. That is responsible for driving the prices down. Mclaren must rethink this policy if they want to solve this problem. It was a short sighted tactic to increase sales, which it did, but unfortunately the consequence, unintended or not, resulted in higher than usual depreciation on their cars going forward. The 765LT should prove to be an exception since it is a limited production, numbered car. Discounts were not offered and there are no inventory cars available. And it is a truly spectacular, unique super car and it very well may be the last of its type. Ferrari and Lamborghini operate on consumer sales by order with the usual - 8 - 16 month wait time for delivery. Rarely, do they have new inventory for sale. Ferrari does not discount prices on ordered cars. Lamborgini will offer a small discount, generally around $5000.
A person had posted in the past (it has turned out to be correct from what I've seen);

Mclaren MSRP on the cars is based on what they think the market will pay for the first six months of a model release. The discounted/incentive priced cars are really what Mclaren wants to make from car sales. Mclaren was still making very good money with the discount incentives that they were providing to dealers/customers.

The wait time for Ferrari's - dependent on what type of customer you are. If you don't have much buying history or none at all then they will put you at the end of the list and try to get you into another car in the mean time while you wait. This is all artificial demand manipulation. Back in 2017, my ferrari dealer called me and they were getting a surprise 488 with MSRP of $330K that had no customer associated with it. They offered it to me and I declined. A friend of mine with very little buying history asked me if I knew a brand new one for sale. I referred him to my dealer with a caveat that they would probably tell him that there is no new car for sale (which is exactly what happened... he was the type that they wanted to wait).

I was at ferrari newport beach two years ago and they had two brand new 488's for sale. They told me they were dealer spec'd and they do this frequently on cars (maybe they manipulate the order system to put in a random person name but they do get cars that don't have a real customer associated with it. They always have "sold" signs on cars that aren't sold and they will tell you that if you walk in. There is an extensive re-seller/broker market that will take their unsold new and used cars and sell them with slight discounts. (many of the high end customers buy through brokers and not directly through dealers).

I hate to pick on you but postings like yours is exactly what shapes peoples opinions on car forums and the extensive network of people who like to keep repeating things that they see on car forums all over social media.
 

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While I’d like to see the 765LT prices do well, I think it’s going to be significant depreciation for a good number of years with the potential for appreciation in the long term (10+ years).

Assuming 765 765LT spiders will also be produced, that’s a relatively high number of $400k to $600k cars. It’ll take some time for people to realize the specialness of the car. I think early reviews convey a more nervous handling car. For those that have seen this before, these type of cars become very sought after later (CGT, F12 tdf).

Either way, I plan on keeping mine for as long as I can and putting as many enjoyable miles as I can on it.
 

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While I’d like to see the 765LT prices do well, I think it’s going to be significant depreciation for a good number of years with the potential for appreciation in the long term (10+ years).

Assuming 765 765LT spiders will also be produced, that’s a relatively high number of $400k to $600k cars. It’ll take some time for people to realize the specialness of the car. I think early reviews convey a more nervous handling car. For those that have seen this before, these type of cars become very sought after later (CGT, F12 tdf).

Either way, I plan on keeping mine for as long as I can and putting as many enjoyable miles as I can on it.
+812GTO
+F8SE
+SF90SE
+2RS
+3RS (2x)
+AMG GT BS
+another Aventador LE
+whatever else in the next 3years

the 765LT is not alone in the market but in a segement of 3.000 - 5.000 cars annually that compete for the same kind of customers together with a ever growing used inventory ... I really would not bet on them hold value too long. First 6-12 months they will probably do well, but than the spiders will arrive and 10-15% of the now owners will already hand back the coupes for spiders + another 15-25% that generally won't hold onto their cars more than 1-2 years (limitation of space/always wanting new stuff, too raw, afraid to loose more money on depreciation and so on - there is many reasons to not hold onto a 765LT for long if you are not a true enthusiast) thats it than for the used prices and you will more or less see on the long run the 675LT curve repeat again ...
 

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Ferrari, in Europe, pre covid fooled the market by claiming the cars were on long and exclusive customer wait times. To purchase a 458 you first had to buy a California and sell it back to the dealer in exchange for the right to purchase a 458. Often these 458's were cancelled customer orders......that was all bull as they had an inventory of unsold cars, the dealers had to claim a years wait time. Thus retail price was maintained and they sold Cali's. But the customers were ignorant of the inventory. Ferrari are just more sophisticated ( or sly, depending on your perspective).
 

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+812GTO
+F8SE
+SF90SE
+2RS
+3RS (2x)
+AMG GT BS
+another Aventador LE
+whatever else in the next 3years

the 765LT is not alone in the market but in a segement of 3.000 - 5.000 cars annually that compete for the same kind of customers together with a ever growing used inventory ... I really would not bet on them hold value too long. First 6-12 months they will probably do well, but than the spiders will arrive and 10-15% of the now owners will already hand back the coupes for spiders + another 15-25% that generally won't hold onto their cars more than 1-2 years (limitation of space/always wanting new stuff, too raw, afraid to loose more money on depreciation and so on - there is many reasons to not hold onto a 765LT for long if you are not a true enthusiast) thats it than for the used prices and you will more or less see on the long run the 675LT curve repeat again ...
All of these are valid points. And as you say, it has all happened before. I suppose the real question is how many people want a pure ICE car out of these 3-5k annual sales and how many want the latest thing no matter what. These are emotional choices and for me personally, the more electrified a car becomes, the less emotional appeal it has. if there are enough refuseniks like me then it will hold its value. If not then it won’t do so well I guess.

incidentally I think the coupes will do ok vs the spiders on 765. it’s that sort of car perhaps.
 

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All of these are valid points. And as you say, it has all happened before. I suppose the real question is how many people want a pure ICE car out of these 3-5k annual sales and how many want the latest thing no matter what. These are emotional choices and for me personally, the more electrified a car becomes, the less emotional appeal it has. if there are enough refuseniks like me then it will hold its value. If not then it won’t do so well I guess.

incidentally I think the coupes will do ok vs the spiders on 765. it’s that sort of car perhaps.
ppl also change all the time ... as @unmac always says the ownership times of these cars are not very long, most of the time 2-3 years with the same owner is average ... most ppl cannot afford more than 1-3 at the same time and always go from one brand and one model within the brand to another ... they just somehow get a routine and want to change for sth else, not necessarily better ... that also drives market fluctuation
 

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ppl also change all the time ... as @unmac always says the ownership times of these cars are not very long, most of the time 2-3 years with the same owner is average ... most ppl cannot afford more than 1-3 at the same time and always go from one brand and one model within the brand to another ... they just somehow get a routine and want to change for sth else, not necessarily better ... that also drives market fluctuation
In The UK it is noticeable that Mclaren have tried to do something different with 765. They have gone only to people who keep their cars long term. But maybe that's not true everywhere. UK got its allocation reduced by a fair bit, so maybe that became easier to do. When Senna came out it took only a week or two for a car to come up for sale. No 765 have come up yet publicly for the UK. Maybe US and ROW are different. I know a lot went to US so you might expect a few to come up - and they have. But perhaps fewer than might be expected. Mclaren have been quite public about not making any more pure ICE. I suspect the people who do want to change cars will sell to people who do want to keep them.

We have seen the effect on price of limiting the production of a car. Like 600LT vs 675LT. But how much more dramatic if we know, because of regulations, that there will never be another car like this?

I suppose I'm just saying - this time it really is different.
 
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