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720S vs 600LT laptimes on same tires (with data analysis)

18K views 86 replies 20 participants last post by  Tuxiemama 
#1 ·
Laptime comparison and data analysis of a 720S vs 600LT, both on GoodYear Supercar 3R tires.

They are very close in times:

 
#6 ·
Its amazing how little influence 120hp+the better suspension have on optimized lap times ... hope the other McLaren car comparisons come soon
 
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#12 · (Edited)
Dunno where you got this number, but it is wrong.

720s DIN kerb is 1419kg and lightest possible spec is 1283kg - Din kerb is the base spec while most 720s are much lighter as they are ordered with several lightweight options (seats/ wheels/ performance spec / track pack etc)
600LT DIN kerb is 1356kg and lightest possible is 1247kg - 600LT dry difference lightest to standard is only 14kg (1261kg) as there are nearly no lightweight options you could additionally order with the LT besides Senna seats and some cf parts
 
#15 ·
Dunno where you got this number, but it is wrong.

720s DIN kerb is 1419kg and lightest possible spec is 1283kg - Din kerb is the base spec while most 720s are much lighter as they are ordered with several lightweight options (seats/ wheels/ performance spec / track pack etc)
600LT DIN kerb is 1356kg and lightest possible is 1247kg - 600LT dry difference lightest to standard is only 14kg (1261kg) as there are nearly no lightweight options you could additionally order with the LT besides Senna seats and some cf parts
My bad, I was just being lazy and using a Google search to get the numbers. That says the 720s is 1419kg - 1468kg and the 600LT is 1247kg - 1297kg

But if your figures are accurate you’ve made me and many other 720s owners happy, I thought I was giving up a lot more weight than that with all the additional refinement and tech, but according to your figures the base din weight is only just over 63kg difference, and then you say a 720s is likely to be specced a lot lighter than the din number, compared to the 600lt, so the difference is likely to be even less! Fantastic!
 
#17 ·
Does bring in to question why compromise for so little weight difference? My 720 is perfect for me, I’m also lucky enough to own a Lotus Exige and a Fireblade engined Westfield, so really do appreciated what light weight does for the driving dynamics and engagement, that is massively important to me. I went for a 720s as I have that base covered with those two cars, but I’ve found the drive of the 720s very engaging, so much fun. I was expecting more of a sporty GT experience, but it’s not, well it can be if you stick everything in comfort, but in Sport or Track it’s as engaging as the Lotus and gives so much feedback.

So if the weight difference is so little, and therefore any driver engagement associated with weight, what are the benefits of the 600LT over a 720s? I appreciate there will be differences but they will be so marginal, based on the numbers above. So are they worth sacrificing the creature comforts and benefits associated with the additional power, the improved interior, active suspension and aero etc?

Don’t get me wrong, I love the 600LT and would have loved one as a garage mate for the 720s, I’m just confused about those numbers as they suggest little gain?
 
#18 ·
Does bring in to question why compromise for so little weight difference? My 720 is perfect for me, I’m also lucky enough to own a Lotus Exige and a Fireblade engined Westfield, so really do appreciated what light weight does for the driving dynamics and engagement, that is massively important to me. I went for a 720s as I have that base covered with those two cars, but I’ve found the drive of the 720s very engaging, so much fun. I was expecting more of a sporty GT experience, but it’s not, well it can be if you stick everything in comfort, but in Sport or Track it’s as engaging as the Lotus and gives so much feedback.

So if the weight difference is so little, and therefore any driver engagement associated with weight, what are the benefits of the 600LT over a 720s? I appreciate there will be differences but they will be so marginal, based on the numbers above. So are they worth sacrificing the creature comforts and benefits associated with the additional power, the improved interior, active suspension and aero etc?

Don’t get me wrong, I love the 600LT and would have loved one as a garage mate for the 720s, I’m just confused about those numbers as they suggest little gain?
well that’s a bit of the trouble in McLarens line up... a newer LT Model (600LT came after 720s) is nearly as fast as the Series above it ... the thing is more that the LT is more track and weekend car focused vs the 720s which is more about daily drives and longer tours - still very powerful on the track ... it’s a bit similar to Porsche with their 30+ variants of the 991

for me I have no problem to see the difference and see it like this:

570s < 600LT/R < 675LT < 720s < 765LT/MSO 688HS < Senna < p1
 
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#19 ·
That’s the thing though, as you say, the 600LT is the hardcore track focused model, yet the 720s is more capable on track?? Surely it’s expected that it should be closer if not better than the model above at doing what it is designed to do? So as well as being quicker on track than the track focused Sports series, it then goes on to offer lots of other benefits too? Suppose it depends which way you look at it. Ultimately, the whole McLaren range is very driver focused therefore all are very capable on track, then they’re also easy to use on a daily basis on the road. There is so much overlap between models and really not vast amounts of difference. So how do you decide which best suits you?

It’s interesting, I hadn’t thought of it like this before.
 
#20 ·
That’s the thing though, as you say, the 600LT is the hardcore track focused model, yet the 720s is more capable on track?? Surely it’s expected that it should be closer if not better than the model above at doing what it is designed to do? So as well as being quicker on track than the track focused Sports series, it then goes on to offer lots of other benefits too? Suppose it depends which way you look at it. Ultimately, the whole McLaren range is very driver focused therefore all are very capable on track, then they’re also easy to use on a daily basis on the road. There is so much overlap between models and really not vast amounts of difference. So how do you decide which best suits you?

It’s interesting, I hadn’t thought of it like this before.
well since they are all 2 seater mid engine V8TTs there is some overlap ... maybe that changes now with the Artura if they decide to keep the V8TT (+hybrid) for the Super and Ultimate Series and have the V6TTH for the GT and Sports Series
 
#21 ·
For those that have not been there, Buttonwillow is a smallish track. More of a club circuit. "Big boy" tracks like COTA, VIR, Road America, etc will show a more substantial gap between the two cars. Billy does a great job of highlighting the strengths of each, especially in his data analysis. Now imagine those straights being longer...

And I'll echo the consistency aspect of the Goodyear Supercar 3R...perfect for this type of test. My results show the Trofeo R can match the GY pace for a single lap, but only one.

If you haven't read my magazine test of the Goodyear, Trofeo and AR1, check it out here: Track Day Tire Testing with Grassroots Motorsports Magazine
 
#40 ·
For those that have not been there, Buttonwillow is a smallish track. More of a club circuit. "Big boy" tracks like COTA, VIR, Road America, etc will show a more substantial gap between the two cars. Billy does a great job of highlighting the strengths of each, especially in his data analysis. Now imagine those straights being longer...

And I'll echo the consistency aspect of the Goodyear Supercar 3R...perfect for this type of test. My results show the Trofeo R can match the GY pace for a single lap, but only one.

If you haven't read my magazine test of the Goodyear, Trofeo and AR1, check it out here: Track Day Tire Testing with Grassroots Motorsports Magazine
Just to add to this a little bit.

I was there for Billy track tests. I know both of those cars well (the owners of the car). Billy also took my Senna for a lap record attempt on the same day as the 600 LT (there was a subsequent test on a different day, where the 600 LT went one second lower then what is in this video). The difference was that it had fresh tires and first session on that day. About 3 hours later, he smashed the lap record again with the Senna.

Buttonwillow is not a top speed track. It's a momentum track that favors cars like a gt3rs/600 LT. Very little advantage for 720s. I own all 3 cars (senna/720s/600LT), and would never pick up the keys for 600 LT over the 720s for track driving. The only exception would be buttonwillow, as the 600 LT is easier to drive at this track.

fwiw; the fastest time of a .2 gt3rs in a pros hands driven 10/10th's is 1:48 (there is many gt3rs with fast drivers that track at Buttonwillow). I don't know anyone who has gone sub 1:50 in a GT2rs yet.)

Billy's main complaint with 720s; the hydraulic suspension interfered too much with his lap time. (He had ESC all off with all 3 cars that he tested).
 
#24 · (Edited)
Interesting to see this result !

I think the fact Button Willow is small is a contributing factor.

At Silverstone which is a large GP circuit my 720s on Corsas was faster than my briefly owned 600LT on Trofeo’s. The 600LT felt more nimble In the corners but actually wasn’t and certainly lost out on the 4 main straights.

The 720 was just more accomplished and had it got stiffer suspension would probably have been even quicker.

But in any event the 600LT feels more track focused, because it is, and being lighter particularly where it counts in the steering/suspension etc it does feel sharper.

The 720s is just a Superior road car and a faster track car but it is not necessarily a better track car !
 
#25 ·
I’m certainly not a professional driver but I do occasionally track my cars...and have also driven the 600LT on track as well. I think the 720s is by far the more well rounded car...But the 600LT was SOO much more confidence inspiring on track. It felt more planted, more sure, more precise and more controllable. If I were seriously into tracking I’d pick up a 600LT or 620R. On the road for everyday driving...I much prefer the 720s. It’s quicker, quieter, more comfortable and more effortless. The LT cars are very noisy with regard to hearing every pebble or grain of sand in the road. Great for a weekend blast or a track day...but not as well rounded for day to day driving. Both fantastic cars!! I’m the 765LT is just ludacris!
 
#45 ·
Imo the 600LT is so much overrated, that's in the end just a simple 570S with some factory tuning, call it LT if you want.
People are comparing even luxury edition 720S on worn pzero tires with the wrong tire pressure, with street allignement to 600LT on Trofeos... that is not ok...

I had a lot of cars and for me the 720S is a piece of art, I have a track edition 720S with buckets and harness, I put Trofeo tires and did a racing allignment, I dont need pops, bangs and burbles more than already there... at some point if you do a lot of laps it will give headaches, so thats enough.... anyway aftermarket products can and will solve that "issue"

I find the car really involving, even with VDC on, but I like it with VDC somewhere in the middle, you can rotate the car to turn using the acceleration like a proper race car, ok we have to dial out the understeer but already guys are putting 265s in front (even on the stock rims), for me the 720S is the car to have.... and 720S with a clever guy behind it to set it up properly will be really close and competing with a 765LT, not a 600LT... on whatever track you choose, spa or autocross..

On the other hand I have never driven a 600LT... only MP4-12C Sprint on road tires, that car understeered too, it felt good, had a lot of carbon and alcantara, but if you are mature enough to differentiate things, the 720S is the much better car, thats why I own one :)
 
#46 ·
@unmac, it seems like @pepinozaur 's points serve to corroborate what you just said sir. Just for final clarification, given that the 720s asserts dominance even in HPDE environments, what (popular) track for example would you think "momentum cars" like the 600lt would fair better (i am not familiar with the track in this particular test for me to use it as a reference derived from 《somewhat》 educated speculation). Portimao and Hockenheim have longer straights, perhaps Anglesey in wales?
209443
 
#47 ·
If you have never drive a 600lt, you can't make unfounded statements without personal knowledge. The 600 is markedly different than a 570. What would be really interesting would be to see the times of a 600lt on the same size wheels and tires. The 600lt is on anemic 225/285 compared to the 720, irrespective of the same tire being used. Mclaren intentionally did this to preserve its classes of performance.
 
#48 ·
I have been to laguna seca (mustang event so take it with a bit of salt), by the braking zones which require skill, do you mean that a really good driver would fair better in it than with the 720s. I think i can understand what you mean by your analogy about buttonwillow.
209444


209448


It looks to me like buttonwillow at the latter pic will favor the momentum cars wheras laguna seca you can more or less utilizs the 720s' power advantage​
 
#51 ·
I have been to laguna seca (mustang event so take it with a bit of salt), by the braking zones which require skill, do you mean that a really good driver would fair better in it than with the 720s. I think i can understand what you mean by your analogy about buttonwillow.
View attachment 209444

View attachment 209448

It looks to me like buttonwillow at the latter pic will favor the momentum cars wheras laguna seca you can more or less utilizs the 720s' power advantage​
Laguna Seca (all turns require braking except turn 1 and even turn 1 people have trouble holding w.o.t. on cars 600 H.P. and above. Hard brake at turn 2, turn 5, turn 7 (before corkscrew), turn 11.

The track map for Buttonwillow 13 cw is slightly different then above. After the west loop you go to Phill hill in the gray portion and then back onto the red part. From Cotton corner to phil hill you only press the brake once at the bus stop (to get the car at 75 to 80 mph and its not a hard brake). Phil hill is a medium speed corner. It's a significant stretch where going w.o.t. is much less in 720s/senna then 600 lt/gt3rs. With a gt3rs, you can go w.o.t. in a few places where you can't with the Mac's due to the high speed you will go in the Mac's. There's a heavy premium on modulating with the higher horsepower cars (600 HP and above at buttonwillow).
 
#49 ·
There is more high speed tracks outside of North America where the Mac's would shine...

Over in California:

600 LT holds the lap record at Thunderhill (momentum track and very similar driving as Buttonwillow)
Senna holds lap record at Laguna Seca, 720s isn't far behind and 600 Lt comes in third behind the Mac's
600 LT held the record at Buttonwillow and then 720s went by and Senna now holds the record
720s faster then 600 LT at Willow Springs (Big balls and high speed track)
600 LT faster then 720s at Sonoma Raceway (it favors 600 HP cars and below)

It takes more skill and patience with the higher horsepower car's at tracks that I frequent (you'll modulate the throttle a lot more and have to be better at trail braking in cars like 720s/senna/p1/gt2rs/pista then gt3rs/600 LT.

I like passing people (we all do); and cars below $1 million; 720s is the G.O.A.T. (pending more testing/results by some of us with 765)

For fair comparisons; 600lt/720s/senna was driven by the same pro (billy johnson) at Buttonwillow.
600 lt/720s/senna/gt3rs was driven by the same guy (my coach Jeff who holds the laguna seca production lap record with senna). My coach also holds the thunderhill record with my 600 LT.

Here's the important thing; people fixate on journalist/magazine lap times as the source to debate/argue.... Those of us who are in this hobby happen to have a lot more data, are part of the tests, know the pro's who are setting these lap times, how the cars are set up, etc. It's a primary reason for those of us who are in the hobby don't debate much on social media of what is faster/better, etc. when it comes to journalist tests.
 
#50 ·
Thank you for this. It really helps me see things more holistically when it comes to track driving (somsthing i am really eager to spend a lot of time in, instead of endangering others on the road). I think if I have the chance id rather learn the tracks you favor as throttle modulation and trail braking plus big cajones sounds like an appealing recipe
 
#53 ·
With regards to weights I’m not convinced Mclaren are that far out, but this topic has been done to death before !!

I weighed my 720s Performance which has a lot of carbon, superlights but the heavy electric seats and around 3/4 tank of fuel.
Came in at between 1,430 - 1,440 kg against 1,419 so not much out.

If I had the P1 Seats, Ultra lights and a few less options then it could get well
Audio equipment Gas Display device Machine Cassette deck
below 1,419 albeit not as DIN comparison
 
#57 ·
probably still would, but on some it would be a quiet close call ...you have to remember the Senna really has more of everything: power, df, brake capability, cornering capability etc. only thing that it is in disadvantage is straight line acceleration vs the 765LT and maybe suspension/clearance on a very bumpy track like the Nordschleife ... additionally of course for most it is a psychological thing that they would not want to trash around their 1m LE hypercars vs a by comparison cheap 720s/600LT ...a pro driver on the mission to brake the track records however would not be hindered my this ...
 
#67 ·
I used to have a used Porsche GT3 cup in my garage. Maintenace was very reasonable and done at my local Porsche dealer, because track days are not as taxing on the engine and gearbox as racing. I put it on the trailer, drive it to the track. Changing wheels and brakes is easy with the build in jacks. But if well prepared you rarely have to do that. Only the slicks are more expensive, but all in all it is fairly affordable and nowhere near what you show. If you see that McLaren charges $1,700 for brake pads (front only) I doubt if it is all that less expensive. But yes, the attorney/banker “arrive and drive, and don’t get your hands dirty option” is ridiculously expensive. Perhaps 10 times more. But that team and the support was not included in the Senna or P1 price either. Other than that the GT3 Cup was a fairly easy to drive car. For 225,000 Euro ex tax you buy the new 992 GT3 Cup. That will be faster than all McLaren street legal cars and the price includes everything you need. And if you offer to pay your local Porsche mechanic handsomely you have your trackside assistance for a song. There are enough guys that love to make extra money and be on the race track over the weekend.I have no idea what the new 720 GT3X will cost but assume $650,000. Wouldn’t that be a blast? And how more complicated than a Porsche can it be if you are a bit handy yourself and a little creative. Anyway, sorry for hijacking this thread. I just don’t understand why you would heavily modify your expensive street car and risk trashing it when there are better options.
 
#69 ·
This all sounds good but is very impractical.

The typical owners is NOT a DIY person. They don't have trailers, they cannot do any of the maintenance, the car will not reside with them, etc. A lot of planning is required to track a race car.

Senna is faster then a Cup Car. However, this is a very silly thing. You don't have the track all to yourself and go do 3 laps, set a time and then let someone else onto the track and let them do 3 laps and then divy out a prize for the fastest lap time.

Track days have traffic, oil spills, all different types of horsepower, people renting cars, people driving in run groups that they shouldn't be. You aren't passing anyone in a 500 horsepower car unless they let you pass.

Senna with aftermarket surface transform rotors, P1 with endless pads or any street car is very inexpensive to track and multi use with demand in the secondary market when it comes time to sell.

Race cars are rarely seen on regular track days - People aren't going to spend the money to go to regular track days and most people do not track on private tracks where you can go anytime you want and they definitely will not consistently rent a track on their own.

The surest way of turning off someone from tracking is to suggest a race car and then they buy one without actually racing (I've seen it many times and especially with clubsport gt4 cars). Someone suggests them to do it, they buy it, they see how impractical it is, not as much fun, get their asses handed to them by people in street cars and then they disappear from track days).

The worst advice someone related to motorsports is to tell a person to buy a race car without actually racing it.
 
#70 · (Edited)
Can’t comment on any track car advice given but I’m not sure that the Senna on road tires would be quicker than a McLaren Super Series Cup GT3 car with slicks (would depend upon track) .. This from K-Pax “Parente arrived at the final race of the 2016 Pirelli World Challenge (Laguna Seca) season leading the championship by two points. The Portuguese driver’s lap of the iconic Californian circuit in 1m 24.212s” He was driving a 650S GT3.

And in 2019 Laguna Seca WeatherTech. “Third quickest was Matt Plumb in the No. 76 Compass Racing McLaren 720S GT3 at 1:25.323 (94.426 mph).”
 
#71 ·
Can’t comment on any track car advice given but I’m not sure that the Senna on road tires would be quicker than a McLaren Super Series Cup GT3 car with slicks .. This from K-Pax “Parente arrived at the final race of the 2016 Pirelli World Challenge (Laguna Seca) season leading the championship by two points. The Portuguese driver’s lap of the iconic Californian circuit in 1m 24.212s” He was driving a 650S GT3
Street legal road car versus real race car.... There really is a big difference between them. Senna will hold the production road car records where it runs for now, but will not compete with GT3 cars in most instances.
 
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