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Discussion Starter #121
Why can't they just do the Lambo model, i.e a Huracan fighter maybe that is the new hybrid, then 720 replacement fights Aventador replacement at same price point. Then do your one-off Centanarios or Vajajays or whatever at 1M+

Just because they can make an entry level supercar doesn't mean they should. (i.e they shouldn't).

What makes them think there is a market for 25 variants of the same layout? Porsche 911? That is its own legacy.

It's like they can't decide on the Ferrari segmentation, the Lambo segmentation or the Porsche segmentation, so they try to cover all of them, with a single mid V8 to boot.

Keep it up and the Pagani segmentation will be the only option available to them eventually. Or worse, Lotus. :(
well Lambo Model is not really working without SUV and Audi ... Aventador S does not sell at all only the SVJ does ... secondly the Hurcan is developed alongside the R8 sharing much of it’s components architecture and so on making it in effect a 20.000 units a year car ... thirdly Lambo has the URUS/SQ8 SUV to make money ... all this does not work for McLaren with being an independent company... Ferrari’s makes nearly double the number of cars and their segmentation is historical and based on many years development, don’t expect Mclaren to be at the same point after 8 year... further Ferrari tech is simpler and therefor probably higher margin ... I don’t see Mclaren fail, and they will soon have more than only a V8TT (But ppl are again complaining it’s not a V12 which under today’s rules is lost development money) ... McLaren simply never put lots of effort into own engine development, also not as a F1 team but always bought them elsewhere - it made them the 2nd most successful F1 of all time and also the only car manufacturer that’s having a LeMans race engine based engine in every car ever made ...
 

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Discussion Starter #123
McLaren will have an SUV. Or pickup truck. Everybody will.
Only if they merge with a bigger company, they alone cannot finance the at least 1bil usd of a SUV from scretch and also need at least 5 years ... so they are late to the whole game ... 5y ago things would have been different
 

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Latest thing i heard:
Still 765lt
Geneva 2020
Dealer knows how many allocation the get.
Production earliest for q3 but more q4 2020.
Model year 2021
Front simular to the 720s Gt3
4 exhaust pipes, (but that could change)
Performance on pair to the mclaren senna
(les hp but les drage..)

New super series model for 2023
new sport series model for 2020 with v6 and hybrid, close to or at 700hp.
Price for sport series and future superseries all north, superseries with hybrid will be price wise on Sf90 stradale level.
Less cars been build with steeper prices.
(if true a good thing)
i think your pricing for mass produced cars are totally off. Super series maybe 10% higher than 720.
 

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Discussion Starter #125
Why can't they just do the Lambo model, i.e a Huracan fighter maybe that is the new hybrid, then 720 replacement fights Aventador replacement at same price point. Then do your one-off Centanarios or Vajajays or whatever at 1M+

Just because they can make an entry level supercar doesn't mean they should. (i.e they shouldn't).

What makes them think there is a market for 25 variants of the same layout? Porsche 911? That is its own legacy.

It's like they can't decide on the Ferrari segmentation, the Lambo segmentation or the Porsche segmentation, so they try to cover all of them, with a single mid V8 to boot.

Keep it up and the Pagani segmentation will be the only option available to them eventually. Or worse, Lotus. :(
why you think they should not make an entry level ? That would broaden the customer base, make the brand better known and also give a incentive to build up a bigger retailer and services network ... at maybe 3500-5000 units in that segment I can also not see that it will delute the brand ... McLaren cars are in most places still so rare you don’t see any off the usual high fashion streets or car meetings at all ... it’s not like Porsche you can see at every corner in rich cities ...
 

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why you think they should not make an entry level ? That would broaden the customer base, make the brand better known and also give a incentive to build up a bigger retailer and services network ... at maybe 3500-5000 units in that segment I can also not see that it will delute the brand ... McLaren cars are in most places still so rare you don’t see any off the usual high fashion streets or car meetings at all ... it’s not like Porsche you can see at every corner in rich cities ...
When I go on cars.com and see a 2017 570S with less than 10,000 miles asking 130K, the brand has been brought down-market.

Dilution is the wrong word because it implies only volume. There are many other factors that go into the brand identity and association with buyers. They have done a piss-poor job of managing the cachet and pedigree of the marque and the the Sport Series is one of the mistakes that they need to back out, going forward. It may have "smoothed" out production peaks, as you say, but it is not sustainable because there are not enough buyers without heavy retail discounts, which further cheapens the brand. i.e. long term, filling out production volume only works if the product actually sells in volume, hence the SUV plans for virtually every car manufacturer.

I believe there is a market for a Mac SUV - think Cayenne Turbo S Coupe fully loaded MSRP plus 15% as base price, so NOT cheap. Notionally I think the carbon tub is a huge differentiator and has merit in marketing safety for passengers/children, although practically from an engineering view I don't have the background to say. In any case, add dihedral doors so you can get in and out of Walmart parking, win. Yes the funds have to come from somewhere, either existing investors, or new.

However, at this point I hope Mac is bought by BMW and everything is rationalized, i.e. fewer models/variants and the re-establishment of McLaren's identity as the premium brand. With the dynamic performance and tech concepts, there is every reason that careful managing of the brand can support a PREMIUM over Ferrari, Lambo, etc., even in the used market. BMW can right-size the volume and treat the marque as a true Halo, which they currently lack. Of course history with Bimmer engines can be leveraged also.

BMW's first order of business is to vaporize Mac's marketing dept. It has been scrambling since day One, somewhat understandable since they have been in start-up mode for much of that time. But they have completely lost their way and need an outsider to come in with a strategic compass to make sense of it all. Nobody can keep track of all of the Macs being released, much less figure out where they sit in the product hierarchy. It's a running joke on every forum and youboob video review. Somebody should give Flewitt a pop quiz and see if he can even name them all in less than 60 seconds.

Then, right after, tackle Quality Control and after-sales service & support, including longer factory warranties that cover more.

I don't think McLaren has what it takes to go it alone. They'll probably end up somewhere between Aston and Lotus, in terms of car company performance. Probably not what Ron intended.
 

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cos they'd need to build a new factory... current one won't produce that volume of cars..
why you think they should not make an entry level ? That would broaden the customer base, make the brand better known and also give a incentive to build up a bigger retailer and services network ... at maybe 3500-5000 units in that segment I can also not see that it will delute the brand ... McLaren cars are in most places still so rare you don’t see any off the usual high fashion streets or car meetings at all ... it’s not like Porsche you can see at every corner in rich cities ...
 

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When I go on cars.com and see a 2017 570S with less than 10,000 miles asking 130K, the brand has been brought down-market.

Dilution is the wrong word because it implies only volume. There are many other factors that go into the brand identity and association with buyers. They have done a piss-poor job of managing the cachet and pedigree of the marque and the the Sport Series is one of the mistakes that they need to back out, going forward. It may have "smoothed" out production peaks, as you say, but it is not sustainable because there are not enough buyers without heavy retail discounts, which further cheapens the brand. i.e. long term, filling out production volume only works if the product actually sells in volume, hence the SUV plans for virtually every car manufacturer.

I believe there is a market for a Mac SUV - think Cayenne Turbo S Coupe fully loaded MSRP plus 15% as base price, so NOT cheap. Notionally I think the carbon tub is a huge differentiator and has merit in marketing safety for passengers/children, although practically from an engineering view I don't have the background to say. In any case, add dihedral doors so you can get in and out of Walmart parking, win. Yes the funds have to come from somewhere, either existing investors, or new.

However, at this point I hope Mac is bought by BMW and everything is rationalized, i.e. fewer models/variants and the re-establishment of McLaren's identity as the premium brand. With the dynamic performance and tech concepts, there is every reason that careful managing of the brand can support a PREMIUM over Ferrari, Lambo, etc., even in the used market. BMW can right-size the volume and treat the marque as a true Halo, which they currently lack. Of course history with Bimmer engines can be leveraged also.

BMW's first order of business is to vaporize Mac's marketing dept. It has been scrambling since day One, somewhat understandable since they have been in start-up mode for much of that time. But they have completely lost their way and need an outsider to come in with a strategic compass to make sense of it all. Nobody can keep track of all of the Macs being released, much less figure out where they sit in the product hierarchy. It's a running joke on every forum and youboob video review. Somebody should give Flewitt a pop quiz and see if he can even name them all in less than 60 seconds.

Then, right after, tackle Quality Control and after-sales service & support, including longer factory warranties that cover more.

I don't think McLaren has what it takes to go it alone. They'll probably end up somewhere between Aston and Lotus, in terms of car company performance. Probably not what Ron intended.
Great post.

I think the influx of high-end brands into the SUV game is not going to end well. There will be too much supply there as well. Or substantial brand dilution as the SUV takes things down-market even more than, say, the Sports Series did. People think the Porsche model will work - similar to how the Cayenne saved that company. I'm not convinced of that. Porsche is unique in that it is viewed as a high-end car, but not an exclusive or exotic car. So it had less brand equity to lose in that regard. Having a bunch of relatively inexpensive Macs and/or Ferraris running around as grocery getters will have a much more deleterious effect on those respective brand images.The DBX will be a better test case since it's not built on a generic platform like the 8 VAG suvs are.I'm also not sure that McLaren's non-traditional factory would be able to adapt its carbon-tub manufacturing to a larger SUV model. I very much doubt it.

Interesting take on BMW buying McLaren. I'm not sure why they would want it? They have better things to do that remediate a niche card brand, for a limited upside. They would make that decision based on a multi-decade corporate plan. It's uncertain right now how the supercar market will adapt to the coming EV change-over. EVs aren't known for weight, so the performance crown in the future might be heavy sedans, and not lightweight coupes. Still, I suppose if BMW did want to have a halo car that they could then use to sell premium SUVs on their X5/X6 platform that would work?
 

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Interesting take on BMW buying McLaren. I'm not sure why they would want it? They have better things to do that remediate a niche card brand, for a limited upside. They would make that decision based on a multi-decade corporate plan. It's uncertain right now how the supercar market will adapt to the coming EV change-over. EVs aren't known for weight, so the performance crown in the future might be heavy sedans, and not lightweight coupes. Still, I suppose if BMW did want to have a halo car that they could then use to sell premium SUVs on their X5/X6 platform that would work?
It's an interesting debate and I will admit that I've never completely understood the motivation for VW, for example, to own Lambo, Bugatti and even Ducati, among others. A quick search of news archive seems to indicate that Piech thought that VW needed to own luxury brands to compete against Daimler and BMW and so bought Bugatti and Lambo around the same time. Interestingly, it appears the acquisition cost for Lambo was around 100M and current valuation is estimated near 12B. Probably not that significant in the grand scheme, but interesting nonetheless, especially since Lambo really doesn't have very many models.

BMW currently owns Mini, and Rolls. They don't really have a supercar marque and there would be a natural demarcation from the new M8 thingy, into a genuine supercar like McLaren. I think they would probably keep it operating as a wholly-owned subsidiary, i.e. not create a new BMW-McLaren brand.

Mac has a rich history of success in F1. Not recently of course, but BMW's own attempt to build F1 cred fell flat. Plus Mac is involved in Formula E, has a plan for hybridization and electric in the extremely high-performance sector (indeed already successful with the P1) and is well-regarded as an engineering and tech innovator. I think the brand association could be positive for BMW. After all, the McLaren F1 engine already has their logo stamped on it.

That said, I think the window of opportunity is shrinking. Right now, McLaren reminds me a lot of Lotus several years ago, when they announced like 8 cars at the same time and everybody was like WTF is going on over there. Once you start looking silly, it's hard to get people to start taking you seriously again.
 

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I'm also not sure that McLaren's non-traditional factory would be able to adapt its carbon-tub manufacturing to a larger SUV model. I very much doubt it.

Interesting take on BMW buying McLaren. I'm not sure why they would want it? They have better things to do that remediate a niche card brand, for a limited upside. They would make that decision based on a multi-decade corporate plan. It's uncertain right now how the supercar market will adapt to the coming EV change-over. EVs aren't known for weight, so the performance crown in the future might be heavy sedans, and not lightweight coupes. Still, I suppose if BMW did want to have a halo car that they could then use to sell premium SUVs on their X5/X6 platform that would work?
Don’t forget that BMW also has extensive experience making carbon fiber chassis at at significant volume and Low price (well at least for carbon fiber) a la i3, i8 and soon to be released i5. Their process is also completely different than traditional prepreg layup. The more you think about it the more it makws sense
 

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Don’t forget that BMW also has extensive experience making carbon fiber chassis at at significant volume and Low price (well at least for carbon fiber) a la i3, i8 and soon to be released i5. Their process is also completely different than traditional prepreg layup. The more you think about it the more it makws sense
As much as I know BMW will abandon the carbon technology in their i-product line. The chassis production remains relatively seen simply too expensive and the weight advantage in combination with the heavy batteries is too small.
 

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Discussion Starter #134
As much as I know BMW will abandon the carbon technology in their i-product line. The chassis production remains relatively seen simply too expensive and the weight advantage in combination with the heavy batteries is too small.

well the whole BMW I devision is not making any money and the technology is expensive ... to my knowledge the whole family of i cars (i8, i3 and future i4 and i5) is subject to being stoped if that does not change soon
 
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i4 and i5 are and were not intended to be CF. i3 is too expensive and will be phased out (great city car and very light).

i8 will likely have a replacement new model in CF. i9 is lightweight, especially for a hybrid.

iNext will be partial CF cell. 7 series uses small parts of CF in cell, but is mostly aluminium.
 

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Discussion Starter #136
i4 and i5 are and were not intended to be CF. i3 is too expensive and will be phased out (great city car and very light).

i8 will likely have a replacement new model in CF. i9 is lightweight, especially for a hybrid.

iNext will be partial CF cell. 7 series uses small parts of CF in cell, but is mostly aluminium.
well they don't sell in the numbers BMW intended ... its as simple as that ... did you see the discounts you now get for an i8 for leasing deals (599 Euro p.m 0 down payment) ... for a 175000Euro car that is all but normal
 

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I agree that for BMW’s current range (didn’t they sell off their Carbon fiber plant in Utah?), carbon fiber is not ideal but for an application such as a Mclaren SUV it is pretty much perfect imo. Not as expensive as traditional prepreg so greater profits but you still get that exotic cache. Even if they just made the A pillars and roof carbon like in the 7 series it would still sell well with good marketing. I mean look at all the people adding the “forged” carbon to their Lambos. I wonder if that option would sell as well if it was labeled as what it really is... Also I would not be so sure about them losing money. This guy goes pretty in depth into it if you have the time.
But yeah I agree that if you look to BMWs current range of I cars they don’t look like such a good investment but I think that is more down to product planning and marketing than it is the technology. I think now you can get a very lightly used i3 for 15000 or so.
 

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you guys remember the rumors that Apple was once interested in buying McLaren? That rumor ran rampant two years ago (even my dealer was smirking) and eventually the two companies denied it... sorry to jump off thread but it relates to McLaren remaining standalone or not...
 
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I keep coming back to this thread looking for new intel on the LT. Seems McLaren is doing a good job keeping the details private or there is a general lack of interest/curiosity in the car, or a bit of both?
 

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Discussion Starter #140
I keep coming back to this thread looking for new intel on the LT. Seems McLaren is doing a good job keeping the details private or there is a general lack of interest/curiosity in the car, or a bit of both?
Not really there is a lot of interest ... but till now they are quiet good to keep Info off the Internet .... it certainly helps that they can test probably all parts on 720s and Senna mules where ppl will not recognize them ...
 
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