[Declan]

Is the MTC open on Saturdays? I'm sure that they wouldn't mind if I drop in on my way to Wales. Seems like many recent members that have posted have seen the P14, I think I'm the only one that did not.


Somehow got my dirty paws on a PP Chiron and might be carving up some of Britain's roads soon.

I am not so sure that anyone not being a dealer has seen much of the P14 in person. And when you drive the Chiron, make certain you post some pics :laugh:

 

[Craigy]

One Thing is for sure, the 675 Spider had not that negative Impact on the prices of the Coupe as the 688HS has. To put a 25 LE Coupe on top of a 500 LE Coupe was simply too much. I know 675 LT's with MSO extras that had a price well above 500.000 USD, so we are talking not about such a great Price difference to the HS in this price category.
We also don't have to argue about Ferraris LE policy, it is very clever and much better than the 675LT desaster.

Not sure if trolling?

Doubling production with 500 spiders has a far greater impact than 25 HS cars.

You could argue that the HS supplanted the LT as the ultimate expression, or something along those lines, but you could just as well argue that the additional press the HS gets adds desirability and value to the 675 lineup.

Now stating that Ferrari's policy is "much better" does make me think you're a troll. I mean, come on, they have multiple cars out there with the same number on them. They stuff as many cars into the international market and hope nobody notices. You might be right though on "very clever" since values are high in spite of their blatant insincerity.

 

[New Britain]

Not sure if trolling?

Doubling production with 500 spiders has a far greater impact than 25 HS cars.

You could argue that the HS supplanted the LT as the ultimate expression, or something along those lines, but you could just as well argue that the additional press the HS gets adds desirability and value to the 675 lineup.

Now stating that Ferrari's policy is "much better" does make me think you're a troll. I mean, come on, they have multiple cars out there with the same number on them. They stuff as many cars into the international market and hope nobody notices. You might be right though on "very clever" since values are high in spite of their blatant insincerity.

Indeed. The 675LT spider was a high-profile (for both good and bad reasons) official model that for some people directly supplanted the 675LT coupe. And they made 525 (or so) of them.
The MSO HS might have a lot in common with the 675LT coupe, but for starters it cannot even be called an "LT" because it doesn't have the extended tail. McLaren have given the HS zero publicity, it's not even an official model, there was never any chance that someone could go into a McLaren dealer and order one, and I doubt that most McLaren customers away from this forum are even aware of its existence. And they made only 25 of them.
The obvious reason that LT coupe prices have been under pressure is that LT spiders are now being delivered, and quite a few of the people who are taking delivery already owned a coupe which they are selling to make room for the spider.
To say that the price pressure on LT coupes is primarily because of the HS, rather than because of twenty-one times as many spiders, makes no sense.

 

[Nadeemy]

Indeed. McLaren have given the HS zero publicity, it's not even an official model, there was never any chance that someone could go into a McLaren dealer and order one, and I doubt that most McLaren customers away from this forum are even aware of its existence.

I agree with you on your points.

Although Mclaren has given HS zero publicity; the MSO chaps who have instagram pages have been quite happy in posting the HS. -

 

[cmack]

Not sure if trolling?

Doubling production with 500 spiders has a far greater impact than 25 HS cars.

You could argue that the HS supplanted the LT as the ultimate expression, or something along those lines, but you could just as well argue that the additional press the HS gets adds desirability and value to the 675 lineup.

Now stating that Ferrari's policy is "much better" does make me think you're a troll. I mean, come on, they have multiple cars out there with the same number on them. They stuff as many cars into the international market and hope nobody notices. You might be right though on "very clever" since values are high in spite of their blatant insincerity.

If Your argumentation would be correct the resale values of 458 Speciales had to implode just like the 675 Coupe's do. But they hold better at the moment and also will in the long term.
Now there also exists a 458 Speciale Aperta, so how is that possible? Oh I forgot, there does not exist a 458 Speciale HS, so the
Speciale Coupe will always be the pinnacle Coupe of the 458 Series and it will stand out in that manner. McLaren has taken the 675 Coupe that uniqueness.
Interestingly You had to agree with the troll in Your last sentence.

 

[Craigy]

If Your argumentation would be correct the resale values of 458 Speciales had to implode just like the 675 Coupe's do. But they hold better at the moment and also will in the long term.
Now there also exists a 458 Speciale Aperta, so how is that possible? Oh I forgot, there does not exist a 458 Speciale HS, so the
Speciale Coupe will always be the pinnacle Coupe of the 458 Series and it will stand out in that manner. McLaren has taken the 675 Coupe that uniqueness.
Interestingly You had to agree with the troll in Your last sentence.

Ferrari has a tremendously larger customer base and fan base than McLaren. McLaren has essentially been selling cars for only about 5 years now. Ferrari has been in the business for something like 10x that.

Looking at your older posts it looks like you own, or owned a 675 coupe. Perhaps you paid over list? Or perhaps your market is much softer than USA. I can understand being upset about its value not appreciating like you'd hoped, but I think your anger is misplaced...

 

[andy c]

One Thing is for sure, the 675 Spider had not that negative Impact on the prices of the Coupe as the 688HS has. To put a 25 LE Coupe on top of a 500 LE Coupe was simply too much. I know 675 LT's with MSO extras that had a price well above 500.000 USD, so we are talking not about such a great Price difference to the HS in this price category.
We also don't have to argue about Ferraris LE policy, it is very clever and much better than the 675LT desaster.

Sorry cmack SB is very astute on this ......Absolutly in no way what so ever has the HS had the slightest bit of effect on the Coupe ...The price of a HS is far in excess of any fully specced LT .. Not only that it is a bespoke car that will probably hardly ever see the light of day on the open market and if one does it's hardly going to be dumped , it's going to be fought over ...I have no idea why you think it would make any difference when it's a vastly more expensive car that has never been available at any dealership .... In fact in real terms this car doesn't exsist as you could never buy it .....

 

[cmack]

Ferrari has a tremendously larger customer base and fan base than McLaren. McLaren has essentially been selling cars for only about 5 years now. Ferrari has been in the business for something like 10x that.

Looking at your older posts it looks like you own, or owned a 675 coupe. Perhaps you paid over list? Or perhaps your market is much softer than USA. I can understand being upset about its value not appreciating like you'd hoped, but I think your anger is misplaced...

Sorry but that Your argument that the 458 Speciale holds the value much better than the 675LT because of Ferraris fan base is weak. I have neither paid over list price nor is my home market soft although it is smaller than in the US. Fortunately I don't have to hope for a appreciation. But the important point is that I know quite many owners and I had to learn that some of them have changed their attitude towards the 675 Coupe after they heard about the HS. To point out to that fact and the implications it has and will have on the 675LT Coupe is no anger but simply the truth. We are not talking about the number of cars but about the fact that You took the 675LT Coupe it's status.

 

[New Britain]

I agree with you on your points.

Although Mclaren has given HS zero publicity; the MSO chaps who have instagram pages have been quite happy in posting the HS. -

That could well be. I don't really know what Instagram is - a state of ignorance that I am happy to maintain.

I can say that McLaren Automotive have made the conscious decision to give the HS no official publicity. I actually think they would prefer it if the car were forgotten about by everyone except the owners. As far as they are concerned, it was a private commission in multiple units, and now they are on to new and different things.

 

[cmack]

Sorry cmack SB is very astute on this ......Absolutly in no way what so ever has the HS had the slightest bit of effect on the Coupe ...The price of a HS is far in excess of any fully specced LT .. Not only that it is a bespoke car that will probably hardly ever see the light of day on the open market and if one does it's hardly going to be dumped , it's going to be fought over ...I have no idea why you think it would make any difference when it's a vastly more expensive car that has never been available at any dealership .... In fact in real terms this car doesn't exsist as you could never buy it .....

As You can read in my posting before I have a different opinion and lets just agree that we disagree.
Of course not the volume of 25 cars is the cause of imploding 675LT prices but ultimately the psychological effect that was caused by telling 500 + 500 customers they buy the ultimate P11 in Coupe and Spider version and pay a premium over the 650S only to present them a LE version shortly after that on top.

 

[New Britain]

Sorry but that Your argument that the 458 Speciale holds the value much better than the 675LT because of Ferraris fan base is weak. I have neither paid over list price nor is my home market soft although it is smaller than in the US. Fortunately I don't have to hope for a appreciation. But the important point is that I know quite many owners and I had to learn that some of them have changed their attitude towards the 675 Coupe after they heard about the HS. To point out to that fact and the implications it has and will have on the 675LT Coupe is no anger but simply the truth. We are not talking about the number of cars but about the fact that You took the 675LT Coupe it's status.

Would you kindly articulate for us the logic of these "quite many" owners?

They were happy with their 675LT coupes after they learned that there would be more than 500 spiders coming onto the market, but when they learned that there was another version that was so rare that they could not buy one and probably would never see one, suddenly they liked their coupes a lot less?

 

[andy c]

As You can read in my posting before I have a different opinion and lets just agree that we disagree.
Of course not the volume of 25 cars is the cause of imploding 675LT prices but ultimately the psychological effect that was caused by telling 500 + 500 customers they buy the ultimate P11 in Coupe and Spider version and pay a premium over the 650S only to present them a LE version shortly after that on top.

It was only the HS I was replying too...I agree if was a fudge to offer the spiders after the coupes in the way it was done ...however I've yet to see coupe prices imploding ? Then again I am only interested in those in the Uk as a LHD is no use to me ... In the long run the LT brand will hold its own

 

[Declan]

As we all know, price is driven by demand. McLaren has so far failed to drive demand for pre-owned cars, when compared to other manufacturers. This is unfortunately also true for the limited models, and the difference in managing this shows. I just want to mention the tdf. I am not convinced that the small batches of the HS and the full carbon spider actually damage the resale value of the 1,000 LTs. I think there are generally just not enough people interested the LT. With McLaren Automotive still being the new kid on the block, there are not the much higher numbers of Ferrrari, Lamborghini, or Porsche owners out there to generate the much higher level of interest necessary for high, or actually increasing resale values. Furthermore the number of collectors of the brand is minuscule, and most of these people have already procured their LT coupé and or spider.

 

[cmack]

It was only the HS I was replying too...I agree if was a fudge to offer the spiders after the coupes in the way it was done ...however I've yet to see coupe prices imploding ? Then again I am only interested in those in the Uk as a LHD is no use to me ... In the long run the LT brand will hold its own

New 675LT's are offered here under MSRP and are not finding a buyer. Some Cars are on the market for more than 6 months. I'm convinced the HS was the Death Sentence to a already difficult LT market Environment because of the unhappy LT Spider Communication. The LT simply lost his cult Status that a F12 tdf and 458 Speciale will always keep.


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[Mikeyb]

New 675LT's are offered here under MSRP and are not finding a buyer. Some Cars are on the market for more than 6 months. I'm convinced the HS was the Death Sentence to a already difficult LT market Environment because of the unhappy LT Spider Communication. The LT simply lost his cult Status that a F12 tdf and 458 Speciale will always keep.


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So on that argument the special Ferrari editions should have killed demand for the speciale. Which they haven't.

LT coupe price's are nothing to do with HS but very much to do with the spider. There are only 25 people in the world who could buy an HS so to say that's limiting demand for the coupe is plain wrong. If you want an HS I think it's unlikely you'll find one. So your best option is a well specced LT.

I don't doubt 750 LT in spider or coupe form would have been a good strategy. 1000 appears to temporarily be a bad thing. But ultimately when it all shakes out the LT, whether spider or coupe will be a very desirable car. Am sure you'll remember the 458 speciale tanked in Europe when the 488 was announced. Doesn't appear to have had a long term effect and the speciale wasn't even a limited production.

 

[cmack]

So on that argument the special Ferrari editions should have killed demand for the speciale. Which they haven't.

LT coupe price's are nothing to do with HS but very much to do with the spider. There are only 25 people in the world who could buy an HS so to say that's limiting demand for the coupe is plain wrong. If you want an HS I think it's unlikely you'll find one. So your best option is a well specced LT.

I don't doubt 750 LT in spider or coupe form would have been a good strategy. 1000 appears to temporarily be a bad thing. But ultimately when it all shakes out the LT, whether spider or coupe will be a very desirable car. Am sure you'll remember the 458 speciale tanked in Europe when the 488 was announced. Doesn't appear to have had a long term effect and the speciale wasn't even a limited production.

Sorry but I don't understand Your first sentence?
The 458 Speciale Coupe is a LE. Ferrari never communicated any restricted number like on the Speciale A but everyone knew they would just be built at a limited time window and that means limited numbers.The 458 Speciale never tanked in Europe, that is wrong. Used 458 Speciales were and are sold well above MSRP here.
But it is not my intention to compare which manufacturer has the better resale value Performance. I just
named the difference between the LE policy at Ferrari and McLaren. Ferrari simply did not offer 25 customers a 458 Speciale with 13 PS more and better Performance.


At the end no one can prove his point, for You and some other users the reason why the LT has a weak
demand is the existance of a Spider, for me it is the fact that MCL sold the LT buyers the car as the ultimate P11 and at the end there is still a LE on top of that. 25 cars is a very small number, that is true, but as some postings here correctly Point out we are at a minuscule market here at MCL.
So at the end I'm as a customer will make my conclusion from all this, You may make Yours.

 

[OfNoConsequence]

Sorry, what was that? Couldn't hear you over the wail of my LT at full song down the straight at Monticello. Winter's coming. Soon no more fun.

Move on. Please. Buy it, or don't. But if you buy it, drive it. Let your money do your talking.

Equities and Forex, now there's a topic for you.

 

[Mikeyb]

Sorry but I don't understand Your first sentence?
The 458 Speciale Coupe is a LE. Ferrari never communicated any restricted number like on the Speciale A but everyone knew they would just be built at a limited time window and that means limited numbers.The 458 Speciale never tanked in Europe, that is wrong. Used 458 Speciales were and are sold well above MSRP here.
But it is not my intention to compare which manufacturer has the better resale value Performance. I just
named the difference between the LE policy at Ferrari and McLaren. Ferrari simply did not offer 25 customers a 458 Speciale with 13 PS more and better Performance.


At the end no one can prove his point, for You and some other users the reason why the LT has a weak
demand is the existance of a Spider, for me it is the fact that MCL sold the LT buyers the car as the ultimate P11 and at the end there is still a LE on top of that. 25 cars is a very small number, that is true, but as some postings here correctly Point out we are at a minuscule market here at MCL.
So at the end I'm as a customer will make my conclusion from all this, You may make Yours.

Ferrari make many unique models with distinctive coach work or different performance to their standard model, take for example specials based on the speciale. If you're not considering this point then you're not considering the entire situation

A year ago I could have picked up a speciale for less than 250k euro. I decided to wait and was wrong. I now have th opportunity to pay 275 if i want one or 310 chf in Switzerland. So it's improved.

If you think that 25 unique cars, designed to customer specification and built in limited numbers and never available for general sale has a bigger effect than a 'never will be built' addition of 500 cars in a spec that the majority of owners had they had the choice would have bought in the first place, then we can't help you.

Alternatively, please go and try and buy an HS and report back what prices you're quoted. Then tell us whether you think the that's a positive or a negative for the LT

 

[cmack]

Ferrari make many unique models with distinctive coach work or different performance to their standard model, take for example specials based on the speciale. If you're not considering this point then you're not considering the entire situation

A year ago I could have picked up a speciale for less than 250k euro. I decided to wait and was wrong. I now have th opportunity to pay 275 if i want one or 310 chf in Switzerland. So it's improved.

If you think that 25 unique cars, designed to customer specification and built in limited numbers and never available for general sale has a bigger effect than a 'never will be built' addition of 500 cars in a spec that the majority of owners had they had the choice would have bought in the first place, then we can't help you.

Alternatively, please go and try and buy an HS and report back what prices you're quoted. Then tell us whether you think the that's a positive or a negative for the LT

You seriously want to compare a one Off Project like the 458MM with the 25 MSO HS Cars? Sorry but can't follow up on that.

Do You Know the Price of the one 458MM? You know the Average Price of the MSO HS?

Off topic: 250k EUR for a Speciale would have been the bargain of the year and the seller Must have been stupid. I was looking for a Speciale Coupé from time to time Since 2015 to add to my Aperta but Never have Seen one under 350k EUR. That Premium was too high for me for a Car that I wanted to use on a regular basis.
The cheapest Car available at the Moment on mobile is 270k EUR without VAT and it has 25k km on the Tacho. New cars are still at 350k EUR without VAT. I don't know the Swiss market so well but why should the Cars there be cheaper?


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[cmack]

Sorry, what was that? Couldn't hear you over the wail of my LT at full song down the straight at Monticello. Winter's coming. Soon no more fun.

Move on. Please. Buy it, or don't. But if you buy it, drive it. Let your money do your talking.

Equities and Forex, now there's a topic for you.

Sorry couldn't hear You either but the Shelby GT350R that I drive Since it arrived last week is so much louder than the wail of any car around. I drive every car buy, some more regular than others.
I already moved on and bought the R well above MSRP and I don't gave a damm shit about it because this a Monster Sound machine and I regreted every day I couldn't drive it.


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