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Piling on the Finspeed love wagon here.


I met the owner, Daniel Finke, at COTA over the weekend. Took a tour of the manufacturing facility and met the guys yesterday. Then ordered wheels in custom sizes for my 720S that will be running in the One Lap of America this year (we finished 2nd Overall last year in my old 570S).



I was super-impressed with their product and process. You will not find better informed engineers, or better engineered products for the enthusiast market, not to mention professional motorsports. These are essentially BBS custom forged pro motorsports level wheels that typically run $10-12K a set, being engineered for your application at about half that price.


As for whether McLaren knows better what they are doing with wheel sizing, have a look at what they put on the 570 GT4 race cars. Yep, wider wheels with a bigger increase in the front. For production road cars, understeer is always built-in for safety reasons...typically through wheel/tire sizing and alignment (limited camber).


For my 570S, a simple upgrade to 12C wheel/tire sizes (yes, they bolt right on and fit) and an addition of 1 degree of camber through shims made the car significantly quicker and less pushy. You do have to be careful about relative tire OD's, or the ESC and ABS will freak out and throw codes if you stray too far away from the OE stagger. The limit is 6% (this straight from Bosch engineers).
 

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I put 235/35/19 and 285/35/20 Michelin sport cup2's on my 570 for the track. Very noticeable improvement in turn-in response. The car felt more planted. I have driven on Hoosier R7, Hankook V214's, Bridegestone RE71R, as well as Pirelli, Michelin, and Dunlop Slicks for 30 years. The rear of the car is well planted with the 285 tire, but the front needs more tire and bite. I believe for 1Lap the 570 was fitted with 255/ front and a 295 rear both with a et47 offset. Not sure you want to go THAT crazy.
 

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FSTCLYZ,

You bring up many good points and I will try to address a few of them here. First, at Finspeed, each set is made to order based upon what the customer wants and their intended purpose. Some companies will premachine a wheel, set it on the shelf, and then when they receive an order, they do a final "cut" to make it fit the application; be it a GTR, GT3, Corvette or whatever. We don't do that. Every set we make is made to order. Back to your thoughts: Obviously, there are constraints that limit what can be done given the location of suspension hardware, suspension mounts, brake hardware, etc. We actually 3D scan those applications where the owners want to get super aggressive or creative. In fact, we just finished a scan of a Senna so will know exactly the limits of what can be done with respect to wheels. We have scanned my 570S and while the brakes and suspension are from the 720 on the 600LT, most of the limits for the wheels remain the same. For my track set up, we went with 19x9s in front and 19x11s in the rear as I want more tire options; the 19s in the rear allow that. So, I went 1 inch wider both front and back with no issue. We can offer some suggestions if you want to go wider or different off-sets. Second, for Geoff2010's setup, he wanted to maintain the option of using stock Trofeo Rs so he will be getting 19x8.5 fronts and 20x11s in the rear. The 8.5 inch width up front will allow Trofeo Rs plus other tires that make a 235 section to help with some of the understeer. He did not have the desire to go wider in the rear. I will confess that I am not sure a wider tire is really necessary in the rear having driven the 600LT; it seemed to hook up well and bigger/wider is also heavier (all things considered). I would not discourage you from going wider if you want to though as I applaud being aggressive! Having said that, you are correct in that you can go wider in the rear. How much more? We would have to do some modeling work to be sure but can figure that out if you or the rest of the forum are interested.

You are also correct in that some tires of the same size have different heights/diameters so again, that goes into our modeling to make sure there are no computer issues. It all comes back to Finspeed wheels being bespoke and understanding how the customer will be using them and knowing the other factors that come into affect. Not only will we help assist with the proper wheel for you, but we will also recommend the proper tire(s) to make sure everything works in harmony.

I hope this helps.

Kurt

PS: I am not quite sure what you meant in your penultimate paragraph with the discussion of the 235 section and then following that with "However, both PUR and Finspeed still are still using 11s in the rear." Could you please restate and I will respond accordingly.

Thanks!
Thanks for the detailed reply. You guys have a good reputation and have succeeded in a very competitive market. Your about the only company I haven't bought wheels from but that's just because I haven't bought them in awhile. I'm sure I'll own a set of yours at some point. : )

I won't go into details as to why I'm going the route I am but I will at least say this set I'm doing with PSC2's is for the street, while my OEM setup (Trofeos) will be for more track use. The whole debate on bigger tires are better I stay out of until I have conclusive personal evidence plus there's too many variables based on different drivers wants and needs.

The other WEIRD thing about this 600lt is why didn't MAC put more offset on the rear wheel.. :confused: It's just strange looking to have the front offset more aggressive than the rear. I bet most of us with aftermarket wheels will be correcting this. The downside to this is a lot of road wear on those little carbon outer blades (a place for more clearbra).

The question on if 245's will fit seems to be up for debate still??
 

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Thanks for the detailed reply. You guys have a good reputation and have succeeded in a very competitive market. Your about the only company I haven't bought wheels from but that's just because I haven't bought them in awhile. I'm sure I'll own a set of yours at some point. : )

I won't go into details as to why I'm going the route I am but I will at least say this set I'm doing with PSC2's is for the street, while my OEM setup (Trofeos) will be for more track use. The whole debate on bigger tires are better I stay out of until I have conclusive personal evidence plus there's too many variables based on different drivers wants and needs.

The other WEIRD thing about this 600lt is why didn't MAC put more offset on the rear wheel.. :confused: It's just strange looking to have the front offset more aggressive than the rear. I bet most of us with aftermarket wheels will be correcting this. The downside to this is a lot of road wear on those little carbon outer blades (a place for more clearbra).

The question on if 245's will fit seems to be up for debate still??
Resistance is futile; you will be assimilated! We hope to have a set of wheels on your car soon!

Again, all good points and as you state, it comes down to what each person wants to do. As for 245s up front, my set of F14s on my 579 have 235s on them and there is just a slight bit of rubbing at full left lock but we have addressed this for all subsequent sets. If you want to try 245s, we can look into it for you. We can also make a 3D printed profile to test fitment. Feel free to contact me at kurt @Finspeed.com and we can discuss more details.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Kurt
 

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As for whether McLaren knows better what they are doing with wheel sizing, have a look at what they put on the 570 GT4 race cars. Yep, wider wheels with a bigger increase in the front. For production road cars, understeer is always built-in for safety reasons...typically through wheel/tire sizing and alignment (limited camber).
As it relates to dialing out understeer: I know the 600LT suspension is conventional, are the roll bars adjustable?
 

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Forgeline wheels update:

I spoke to Derek at Forgeline. Derek is confirming that my aftermarket offset wheels will fit the 600 LT. He is going to check and all me back. He is not sure if they have sold a set for a 600LT yet or not.


Offsets currently
8.5 40 19"
11 44 20"

Tires front 245 Trofeo R
Tires rear 305 Trofeo R and can go to 325.
 

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As it relates to dialing out understeer: I know the 600LT suspension is conventional, are the roll bars adjustable?
I could be wrong but I do not believe the factory sway bars are adjustable. As AWH mentioned, I think just a bit of negative camber will do wonders for the handling.

Kurt
 

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As it relates to dialing out understeer: I know the 600LT suspension is conventional, are the roll bars adjustable?

I have seen nothing that says they are, but I'm not an LT owner so can't say for sure. But the bars for the GT4 race cars are adjustable and bolt right on. Can be purchased through any McLaren motorsports dealership (Houston and Scottsdale, for sure).


I believe for 1Lap the 570 was fitted with 255/ front and a 295 rear both with a et47 offset. Not sure you want to go THAT crazy.

Hey now, who you calling crazy??? :)


Indeed, I ran 255/30-19 on the front but the rears were 305/30-20. Those 255's don't really like being on 8.5" rims, though. They are pinched and you'll edge-cord them before wearing out the full tread. I had them on 10's on my 12C and it was a better fit. If you look at the tread widths for that particular tire (PS4S), you'll see that one size is particularly wide. Same width as the 275/30-19, which is what we are putting on the front of my 720 for this year...on 10's.
 

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What a great thread. Question: If I go with 19x9s in front and 19x11s all around, what are the tire sizes I should be using so the sensors don't throw a fit? Also what should be offsets and such to make sure things clear or is that dependent on wheel shape or style?
 

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What a great thread. Question: If I go with 19x9s in front and 19x11s all around, what are the tire sizes I should be using so the sensors don't throw a fit? Also what should be offsets and such to make sure things clear or is that dependent on wheel shape or style?
The discussion of offsets and other specifics is getting into the details of wheel design and engineering and best handled in one-on-one discussions with the firm you choose as there can be many variables at play. PM me if you would like to get into some of these details as I am happy to have that discussion with you or anyone else.

Kurt
 

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The discussion of offsets and other specifics is getting into the details of wheel design and engineering and best handled in one-on-one discussions with the firm you choose as there can be many variables at play. PM me if you would like to get into some of these details as I am happy to have that discussion with you or anyone else.

Kurt
Can you at least share the tire sizes? I'm too lazy to go out into my garage and take the covers off the car to see if the rear has an overall diameter greater than the fronts. I assume it might since the rears are 20s while fronts are 19s and I assume they'll want the same tire sidewall size.
 

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have scanned my 570S and while the brakes and suspension are from the 720 on the 600LT, most of the limits for the wheels remain the same.
Only the lighter double wishbones are from the 720 I believe, and they wouldn’t intrude in to wheel space at all. The suspension itself is the same coilover system in the 570, with stiffer and 8mm lower springs. McLaren do not say anything about the shocks so presumably they are the same.

Can you at least share the tire sizes? I'm too lazy to go out into my garage and take the covers off the car to see if the rear has an overall diameter greater than the fronts. I assume it might since the rears are 20s while fronts are 19s and I assume they'll want the same tire sidewall size.
As for the question on front-to-rear sizes, the rear has a 27.9” rolling diameter and the front a 25.2” diameter. They use the same OEM tire sizes as the 570S - 225/35R19 and 285/35R20. This is actually kind of odd since the wheel itself is 19x8 on the front (same as 570) and 20x11 on the rear (1” wider than 570!) That begs the question - why did they put a wider wheel on the back, but not a wider tire?? Even more odd, on Pirelli’s website none of their 285 width Trofeo’s tires are certified for 11” rims - they all say “9.5-10.0-10.5”. Did McLaren typo their spec sheet on wheel width? Is it actually a 10”?

Thanks!

Z.
 

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As for the question on front-to-rear sizes, the rear has a 27.9” rolling diameter and the front a 25.2” diameter. They use the same OEM tire sizes as the 570S - 225/35R19 and 285/35R20. This is actually kind of odd since the wheel itself is 19x8 on the front (same as 570) and 20x11 on the rear (1” wider than 570!) That begs the question - why did they put a wider wheel on the back, but not a wider tire?? Even more odd, on Pirelli’s website none of their 285 width Trofeo’s tires are certified for 11” rims - they all say “9.5-10.0-10.5”. Did McLaren typo their spec sheet on wheel width? Is it actually a 10”?
.

A note on "approved rim widths"...don't put too much credence in that. These are standardized between all tiremakers for each marked size (go to TireRack.com and have a compare a couple) according to specs administered by the Tire and Rim Association. Actual tire dimensions are not standardized, due to variations in profile and such. Except...section width of a specific tire on the "measured rim" almost always is. Again, for fitment reasons (section is typically the interference point, though not always). Confused yet? :)


As an example, have a look at the N0 Porsche spec version of the 305/30-20 Michelin PS4S versus the "regular" version. .4" wider tread width, with same OD, section, and rim specs. Max in rim spec is 11.5 but Porsche puts that tire on the rear of a GT3 with 12" wide rims.
 

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A note on "approved rim widths"...don't put too much credence in that. These are standardized between all tiremakers for each marked size (go to TireRack.com and have a compare a couple) according to specs administered by the Tire and Rim Association. Actual tire dimensions are not standardized, due to variations in profile and such. Except...section width of a specific tire on the "measured rim" almost always is. Again, for fitment reasons (section is typically the interference point, though not always). Confused yet? :)


As an example, have a look at the N0 Porsche spec version of the 305/30-20 Michelin PS4S versus the "regular" version. .4" wider tread width, with same OD, section, and rim specs. Max in rim spec is 11.5 but Porsche puts that tire on the rear of a GT3 with 12" wide rims.
I agree on the variations... My 305/30R20 is approved down to 10" for Toyo, but not for Pirelli (their minimum is 10.5"). Typically I don't care too much if it's half an inch out, but on a car doing 200MPH+ I feel a little more cautious!

Maybe they use the wider wheels to alter the track width, though I just checked, and surprisingly the 570S has a rear track of 1618mm and the 600LT is 1591mm?? On the front the 600LT is slightly wider (1680mm vs 1673mm - 7mm wider). This is measured "contact patch centre", so the extra 25.4mm on the wheel might actually push the rear track out a bit more (edge to edge). The marketing material claims "10mm wider track" but I'm not sure why their track width specs don't seem to correlate.

Thanks!

Z.
 

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Resistance is futile; you will be assimilated! We hope to have a set of wheels on your car soon!

Again, all good points and as you state, it comes down to what each person wants to do. As for 245s up front, my set of F14s on my 579 have 235s on them and there is just a slight bit of rubbing at full left lock but we have addressed this for all subsequent sets. If you want to try 245s, we can look into it for you. We can also make a 3D printed profile to test fitment. Feel free to contact me at kurt @Finspeed.com and we can discuss more details.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Kurt
Yes, I forgot to mention. This 235/35/19 305/30/20 set I'm referring to, the 235 slightly rubs at full lock in reverse and I wouldn't say the offset is that aggressive. The fitment up front seems to be tighter than we thought with that 600lt specific fender liner.....

I'm seeing 245/30/20's on a few 600's via pics but haven't heard if they rub.
 

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and surprisingly the 570S has a rear track of 1618mm and the 600LT is 1591mm?? On the front the 600LT is slightly wider (1680mm vs 1673mm - 7mm wider). This is measured "contact patch centre", so the extra 25.4mm on the wheel might actually push the rear track out a bit more (edge to edge). The marketing material claims "10mm wider track" but I'm not sure why their track width specs don't seem to correlate.
Is the 10mm wider track at the front or rear in marketing materials. I know they did talk about a wider front track.

Regarding the rear being narrower - possibly aero related???

I am generally skeptical about mods (e.g., shoving bigger wheels/tires) on aero-focused track cars from manufacturers who seem to know what they are doing and who can fine tune aero impact of changes in way we cannot. I will continue to watch this thread, but I am leaning toward simply getting a second set at OEM dimensions.

(This is also the reason I was asking about the roll bar. If understeer is dialed in for safety my preference would be to attack it from the suspension not the rubber, if possible.)
 

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Can you at least share the tire sizes? I'm too lazy to go out into my garage and take the covers off the car to see if the rear has an overall diameter greater than the fronts. I assume it might since the rears are 20s while fronts are 19s and I assume they'll want the same tire sidewall size.
Sure: If you wanted to do 19x9s and 19x11s as in your previous post, the Hoosier size would be 235/25-19 and 315/35-19. I will have to do some calculations with other brands to see what will maintain the proper diameter/height. I will look into that and post soon.

Kurt
 

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Is the 10mm wider track at the front or rear in marketing materials. I know they did talk about a wider front track.

Regarding the rear being narrower - possibly aero related???

I am generally skeptical about mods (e.g., shoving bigger wheels/tires) on aero-focused track cars from manufacturers who seem to know what they are doing and who can fine tune aero impact of changes in way we cannot. I will continue to watch this thread, but I am leaning toward simply getting a second set at OEM dimensions.

(This is also the reason I was asking about the roll bar. If understeer is dialed in for safety my preference would be to attack it from the suspension not the rubber, if possible.)
If I were you, and I kind of am because, I went 1 inch wider up front and back for my track set but only half an inch wider up front for and stock width in the rear for my street set. For track use, I want to have a bit more width as I am interested in cornering speed vs top speed. I love a well balanced car and the speed I can carry through a corner rather than the straight line stuff. Just my personal opinion and I certainly respect other's choice to suit their goals.

Kurt
 

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Is the 10mm wider track at the front or rear in marketing materials. I know they did talk about a wider front track.

Regarding the rear being narrower - possibly aero related???

I am generally skeptical about mods (e.g., shoving bigger wheels/tires) on aero-focused track cars from manufacturers who seem to know what they are doing and who can fine tune aero impact of changes in way we cannot. I will continue to watch this thread, but I am leaning toward simply getting a second set at OEM dimensions.

(This is also the reason I was asking about the roll bar. If understeer is dialed in for safety my preference would be to attack it from the suspension not the rubber, if possible.)
I hear the whole "the manufacturer knows better" argument a lot, but I strongly disagree with that perspective. The manufacturer has to make a HUGE amount of compromise when selling a car to the public. If it's their halo TRACK ONLY car, I'd mostly agree - so a Senna GTR or FXX, I'd agree (though I think they hold things back there too) - but any road going car, especially if not their top level street car, is going to have an insane amount of compromise built-in, including, but not limited to:

- Regulations
- Streetability
- Climate
- Reliability
- Warrantee concerns
- Competition with it's own line up
- Competition with future cars

With regulations and streetability, everything from how loud it is & emissions to speed bump clearance & NVH has to be taken in to account. So the optimum driving experience might be stiffer springs, harder engine mounts, or lower ride height - but they are limited by regulations and drivability, and have to cater to the majority. Other concerns like climate, reliability and warranty are also things I might choose to forfeit for improved performance.

Lastly, competition with themselves is a HUGE part.. The 600LT cannot be made to be better than the 720S, the 720S cannot be made to be better than the Senna. It just isn't good business. Also, the 570S was obviously compromised so they could sell you a 600LT later. All the improvements made in the 600LT prove that aftermarket upgrades can improve things. Porsche, for example, are notorious for this - I think one time Top Gear put up a chart comparing Boxster, Cayman and 911 - and the numbers were literally progressive!

I'm not saying all mods help - done stupidly mods can and will affect a car negatively - but well thought out mods will improve the car for your specific use case.

Thanks!

Z.
 
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