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12C on TG 7/3

45K views 275 replies 42 participants last post by  falb 
#1 ·
As much as many of us hoped the first episode of the new series of Top Gear would feature the 12C, it appears we have to wait a week.

The episode also features the guys lapping the Monaco F1 circuit in little hot-hatches.
 
#3 ·
Damn, like most, I was hoping that we would eventually get a real Dunsfold time.

Also hoped someone would spill the beans pre transmission, as it’s recorded on a Wednesday prior to a Sunday screening and would expect someone in the audience to break ranks and give us the outcome.

Roll on next Wednesday
 
#4 ·
Well there is the McLaren technician on Twitter who did say the 12C "comfortably beat" the heavily modified 458 (his words), however he was not at liberty to provide the lap times. Still wondering if they will bother with posting a new 458 time as that would seem non-standard practice. In any case, have low hopes for subjective measures as JC's persona is Ferrari addict and fits perfectly with typical British "build it up, to tear it down" media practices. Plus, his "stockings" analogy and verdict has already been published in TG mag. Ron's nightmare continues, seems somewhat personal to me, at times.
 
#11 ·
The 2011 model year 458 has revised software for both the magneride suspension and the E diff to improve cornering which McLaren's earlier car won't have had. The new Michelin SuperSport tyre option also wasn't available on the early cars and cuts 0.6 seconds a lap around Fiorano I was told. McLaren know just how much time a good tyre is worth I think ;)

It amuses me that people think Ferrari was meant to stand still with the 458 and not continually incorporate upgrades to their car.
 
#12 ·
Speaking of which, I'm very curious to see how much firmware and software can be updated through the IRIS system as time progresses. New fuel maps and such should be easy for McLaren to provide as time goes on and they collect more customer data.
 
#22 ·
thats what chris goodwin told me,but if the stig throws a paddy about not driving it in his style like plato,then it will be well down the board.
lets hope the stig has a quick smooth style!!!!
I suppose to be fair to plato he did say that it was only 0.1 secs slower than the new 458,so he can drive in a straight line aswell
 
#26 ·
For reference the 5th gear time of 0.1s difference between the 458 and Mp4 was also set around Dunsfold which is the Topgear track (and Mcs development track)

If the Mac is much quicker than the 2010 458 on top-gear - there really do need to be serious questions asked about the current 458 test car.
 
#30 ·
The corvette z06 / zr1 use the exact same magnahelorical suspension system as the 458. The zr1 with new programming and the super sport tires bested it's 'Ring time from 2008 @ 7:26 to 2011 @ 7:19. That is really all due to suspension software and mainly tires. These two updates have clearly made it into the 458.

Perhaps Ron needs to ditch the pirelli tires, even their corsa tires are weak. At least put those Michelin SS tires on and see how they help.
 
#33 ·
Oddly for TG, the car review is this week, but the comparison against the 458 isn't until next week - probably means it'll be a long, in depth, and completely non-sensical comp. Either way, should be fun. I usually totally disagree with JC's reviews, particularly when it comes to composed sportscars.
 
#37 ·
Guys Corsas are R rate semi slick tires. They have better dry handling than the Supersports and are worse in the wet. Especially the new version of the corsas has absolutely amazing grip. I am talking from personal experience.
I have not tried the new supersports but they are not designed (or designated) as R compound, track oriented tire. It is an optimized street tire which apparently is very good.
So there s going to be no benefit for dry lap times with the SS tires, most likely a disadvantage.
Comparing to normal pirelli zeros or PS2s then yes, the SS will be significantly faster
 
#39 ·
Heard from someone very senior in Mc, that the Mp4 will be 3s a lap faster than the (2010) 458 when tested on Topgear this Sun.

If true, serious questions should be asked about the current 458 press car which managed an identical lap time on the same circuit last week on 5th gear.
 
#45 ·
12c Strangely absent from TG again this week, despite being listed in the program schedule?!
 
#47 ·
What on earth! What are they cooking now? Why delay after delay. I smell a rat as there is too much at stake here for both manufacturers.
Btw there was going to be an official announcement by mclaren on the recent tests this weekend. Got this from a reliable source. Did anyone receive or hear anything?
 
#53 ·
Just got round to watching Sunday’s Top Gear.

Interesting review on the new AM Virage, which I am sure has a great bearing on next weeks conclusions on the 12C.

James May banged on and on about how people really want a car that can be driven on any surface and not just tracks and that isn’t honed to get the best out of the Nurburgring Nordschleife.

He would be quite happy if the Virage had been 5 seconds slower around their track, as long as it had been comfortable.

JC agreed entirely, despite May’s ham acting trying to ignore this!

Looks to me like they will conclude that the 12C isn’t the fastest car (enough debate elsewhere so please don’t shoot me down), not the best handling (again I think it is, but that’s another issue), but that it is the best car (and hopefully not 5 seconds off the pace!)

Perhaps reading too much into it, but I do think that their reaction to the Virage was very revealing and sowing the seeds for the 12C test.

We will all know by Sunday, or even tomorrow, if someone leaks the results after filming.
 
#54 ·
I was convinced it was the lead-in for the 12C review for the first 5 mins.
 
#55 ·
Jeremy Clarkson already reviewed the 12C back in the March issue of Top Gear magazine. Here is a copy of the article -

"The Ferrari 458 is fantastic. Yes, the button-festooned steering wheel is stupid and the driver is forced to choose between a speedo and a satnav, which is insane, but when you ignore the idiocy of the interior and you put your foot down, it feels like no other car. It feels better. More alive. Just absolutely, totally brilliant.

This is why, on our television programme, James May wondered out loud how the McLaren MP4-12C could be better. Unless it runs on water and does zero to a million in one second, it just doesn’t seem possible.

McLaren however says that it can prove, scientifically, that in fact its car is better. It says that the maths are on its side. So are the headlines for that matter, because the MP4-12C is a tiny bit less expensive than the Ferrari, but delivers more power. A lot more.

There are other things. The McLaren is a much nicer place to sit and a much nicer car to use. In a Ferrari 458, the indicator buttons are on the wheel, so if you are going round a corner, you push the button on the left to tell other road users that you are about to turn right. And at night, when you want to indicate, change gear and dip your lights at the same time, you need to deploy your tongue.

There's no such madness in the McLaren. The steering wheel is just a steering wheel. And what's more, the circumference is precisely the same as the circumference of the wheel fitted to the cars driven by Messrs Hamilton and Button. Minus a fraction to take into account the thickness of their gloves.

There's more. Where the Ferrari is festooned with miles of shiny carbon fibre, the McLaren is all leather and hand-stitching and simple, clear, nice graphics.

McLaren's people are also at pains to explain that their car rides much more sweetly than the Ferrari. They say that because it doesn't have anti roll bars, the suspension is truly independent. And that the computer which controls it - designed by a man I don't want to have round for dinner - ensures that bumps are ushered into another room so you simply don't notice them.

They have a point. On the last left, through the tyres on the TopGear test track, it's tempting to drop two wheels off the tarmac and into the grass. In most cars, this causes your entire skeleton to shatter as though it's been dipped in liquid nitrogen and then hit with a hammer. But in the McLaren, I thought I'd simply misjudged the move and that all four wheels had remained on the road.

That's not really possible though, because visibility is another area where the McLaren trumps the Fezza. I'm not suggesting for a moment that the 458 is a postbox, but in the McLaren, because the windscreen is so deep and the top of the front wings are precisely over the centre of the front wheels, you are alwaysexactly where you want to be.

Yes, yes, yes, I can hear you saying. But is it fast?

Yes. Biblically so. In Track mode, with all the driver aids turned down to a minimum, it absolutely flies. In a straight line, and round the corners, I would say that it is faster than the 458. And with the optional ceramic brakes, and that big wing on the back, I would guess it stops faster too.

Certainly, and thanks to the turbocharging, it always feels more muscular. If I may be permitted to liken the Ferrari to a kingfisher, then the MP4-12C is a gannet.

The gearbox isn't that brilliant, though. In the 458, you just tap the paddle and you have another gear, whereas in the McLaren the paddles are mounted on the same rocker set-up they use in the F1 cars. So, you pull the lever a bit which lets the double-clutch gearbox know whether you want to go up or down the 'box and then you pull it a bit more to actually make the shift.

This sounds clever, but in practice you have to put more effort into changing gear than you would imagine. And, since I'm fundamentally lazy, most of the time I told the gearbox which way I was thinking of going, but then let go of the paddle before we'd actually got there.

That said, though, the traction control is terrific. Instead of ordering you to behave by dropping an anvil on the throttle cable, it asks you to come in for a cup of tea and then it sits you down and gently reminds you that you might be overdoing things a bit, old chap.

So, by any scientific or mathematical measure, then, yes, the MP4-12C does appear to have its only real rival licked.

However, while science and maths are very important in the pursuit of speed, emotion must also be considered, and here, I'm not so sure the McLaren stacks up quite so well.

Look at it. It's pretty, and it definitely has the air of a supercar, but where is the flair? Where's the suggestion that a human being has been at work? It's a bit too clinical. You get the impression it was styled by software and shaped by a simulator. It probably was.

Then there's the noise. For sure, a Ferrari never stops shouting, but the sound it makes is spine-tingling. The sound an MP4 makes, even at full volume in Track mode... isn't.

There's a similar issue with the driving experience. The 458 feels more agile, more deft, more nimble. It probably isn't, but it feels that way. In short, then, and for reasons it is impossible to explain without climbing into the pit of my stomach for a furtle, the McLaren isn't as exciting as the 458.

No car makes the root of my penis fizz, but if such a thing were to happen, it would be the 458 that caused more effervescence.

Of course, there's no doubt that you really could use the McLaren every day. It rides beautifully, its engine can be put into submarine mode and the interior is a far, far nicer place to be. But why would you want to use a car like this every day?

Let me put it this way. The Ferrari is a pair of stockings. The McLaren is a pair of tights. Scientifically and mathematically and practically, the McLaren is better. And yet somehow, it isn't."

http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/clarkson-mclaren-mp4-12c-2011-03-22?imageNo=0
 
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